[themosinator]

Just curious what (if any) differences there might be between the two...

...and (if this is a question for the Workbench, please let me know...)...but...has anyone ever tried to "mimic" either Soviet or Romanian shellac before?...or, is there something at least "similar" currently on the market?...



...don't worry...this isn't a "Bubba" question...I am trying to decipher why my Romanian's shellac looks slightly different than my Soviet's shellac (might be my ol' eyes?...might be the wood beneath the shellac?...who knows...)

 

[vz58kid]

OMG! It is a sin to Bubba a Mosin!

Different countries used different types of wood and diff color of stains! Strange thing with the Russian shellac is that the guns rom the 50s have it flaking off while older ones dont!

Minwax Sedona Red 222 is a perfect match for the Russian Red then followed by a layer of Minwax Polyurethane semi gloss and you cant tell the difference!

Are you following in Bubbas footsteps??? LOL!

 

[rocker98]

This one has shellac like the late war Soviet M44's. Very blonde...

The Mosin Nagant typically slathered with a garnett shellac, more reddish brown. The later Soviet M44 carbines can be found like this. A lot of the stocks that came out of the Czech plants were blonde.

 

[vz58kid]

Georgeous Gun!

 

[Stalin's Ghost]

Based on my historic research, there was a great shellac shortage in the USSR, Britain, Germany and the USA from about 1939 until the late war as Japanese conquests, submarine warfare and sea traffic restrictions pretty well cut off the supply from the Far East, where shellac originates.

The US classified shellac as a strategic war material (it was used for waterproofing wire and all electrical circuits as well as electric motors, radios and lots more.) In the wartime Soviet Union shellac was made from old recycled shellac phonograph records and was carefully restricted, so rifle shellac probably came close to the bottom of the quality barrel, meaning original wartime Soviet rifle finish in original shellac tends to flake and deteriorate, as we have all seen on original rifles. This later wartime reddish finish seems generally worse than earlier 1930s finish and later refurb finish, but there seem to be exceptions in the carefully repaired wartime refurb stocks done by master craftsmen and carefully coated with clear amber shellac instead of the red goop.

Any shellac done after the war in the common postwar refurbs seems pretty good and doesn't flake too much as it has more real shellac filler in it. Later Hungarian and Czech as well as Polish M44s I own or have seen seem to be good quality shellac of the amber color, more like the high quality of original 1930s Russian stocks.

 

[vz58kid]

Seems like the most flaking that i have seen is in the Russian refurb SKSs from the 50s and a lot of post war refurbed 91/30s!

 

[rocker98]

Georgeous Gun!

Sadly, I don't have this one anymore

 

[Stalin's Ghost]

Might be -flaking also seems to depend on how much the wood has expanded and contracted from moisture and temperature changes, plus some arsenals probably tried to make quota by diluting their shellac.

Seems like the most flaking that i have seen is in the Russian refurb SKSs from the 50s and a lot of post war refurbed 91/30s!

 

[rocker98]

Believed to be a Czech manufactured stock at the time of purchase. Not sure if anything has changed with that belief. It's been a few years since I had heard anything of the sort come up on the boards.

 

[vz58kid]

OMG! I think i fell in Love!

 

[rocker98]

Yes, I fell in love when I saw it for $89 @ the time. This was one of those "never going to sell" carbines. But, I needed cash, and this one brought $250 from the avid collector who bought it. His offer, not an asking price. I thought he was crazy, but he wanted it that bad. This one has a very lite coat of amber shellac. Same with the Romanian above.

I have seen pictures of Romanian carbines with darker shellac. I am not sure which would be more common, I have not seen that many in my hunt.

 

[themosinator]

I have seen pictures of Romanian carbines with darker shellac. I am not sure which would be more common, I have not seen that many in my hunt.

Yes!!...this is what I was talking about...Romanian stocks that have that darker, amber colored shellac that looks alot like Soviet amber colored shellac...

 

[kenb]

Might be -flaking also seems to depend on how much the wood has expanded and contracted from moisture and temperature changes, plus some arsenals probably tried to make quota by diluting their shellac.

I think it has more to do with applying shellac over wood that is soaked with oil from years of use.

 

[vz58kid]

Some of these guns like many Hungarians are almost Blonde with no Red in them and these were made with Beechwood!

 

[jjjxlr8]

Here's some examples of different Russian re-furb shellac colors...

Typical orange brown variety. Stock wood is very light underneath.

Russian M38 re-furb shellac...

Deep, dark reddish color similar to the 1951 finish on the SKS...

1951 SKS45, non-re-furb

1953 SKS45, refurbished - very brown in color, not much red tint to it.

1944 Tula re-furb shellac...

1944 Izhevsk, re-furb shellac...

Here is some original Romanian shellac from the late 70's...

 

[Igloo]

Dewaxed and Waxed shellac, that makes a big difference in color, flaking, and adhesion. Dewaxed is usually a thin color and requires more coats to get a deeper color, and usually the more you cake on the easier it will flake with use and age. Waxed always give a generic brown color along with the regular color of shellac, it also lasts longer over time while having much better adhesion with thick and thin coats.

I'm quite sure most shellacs are the same, it's just that the color differences come from the various combinations of colors or types. Say for instance you have an old refurb that still has waxed garnet shellac underneath, you add a layer of dewaxed amber shellac and it doesn't add extra brown tint to it, but instead the old color bleeds through and blends with the new one creating a unique coat.


I hope that clears things up.
-Iggy

 

[rocker98]

Dewaxed and Waxed shellac, that makes a big difference in color, flaking, and adhesion. Dewaxed is usually a thin color and requires more coats to get a deeper color, and usually the more you cake on the easier it will flake with use and age. Waxed always give a generic brown color along with the regular color of shellac, it also lasts longer over time while having much better adhesion with thick and thin coats.

I'm quite sure most shellacs are the same, it's just that the color differences come from the various combinations of colors or types. Say for instance you have an old refurb that still has waxed garnet shellac underneath, you add a layer of dewaxed amber shellac and it doesn't add extra brown tint to it, but instead the old color bleeds through and blends with the new one creating a unique coat.


I hope that clears things up.
-Iggy

Spot on. New, or old shellac is just as reactive to DA. Wax content matters too. I try to buy furniture coated with shellac because of this very property. No need to strip the old finish off, blend with new.

That said, I am sure the Romanians, as well as any who manufactured stocks, used what was available in quanity at the time. Hence the various shades on Mosin Nagant rifle stocks of any country.

 

[tuco In Memoriam]

just a note - most of the Sovier reworks were done in the late 60/s to early 70/s based on the paperwork in the crates. My guess is that as these were not important arms to them they used the cheapest finish they could.

 

[vz58kid]

just a note - most of the Sovier reworks were done in the late 60/s to early 70/s based on the paperwork in the crates. My guess is that as these were not important arms to them they used the cheapest finish they could.

I thought the same, since as i had said ealier all the Flaking ones i have seen were Refurbs of guns made in the 50s like the SKSs and such!

 

[Stalin's Ghost]

Probably used left-over barrels of whatever was sitting in the warehouse, cut with solvent grade alcohol to thin it out.
The money was going for the Soviet space program, hot new MIGs, the Aswan Dam, new nuclear subs, the Olympic teams, aid to Algeria, most anything but old rifle refurb. (Sort of like our neglect of all those fine old Garands, 1911A1s and M1 carbines we've left around the world.)

just a note - most of the Sovier reworks were done in the late 60/s to early 70/s based on the paperwork in the crates. My guess is that as these were not important arms to them they used the cheapest finish they could.