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Discussion Starter #1
Topic author: Thomas Marckese
Subject: Walther PP Super 9X18
Posted on: 11/10/2004 11:51:37 PM


What is this round?

Replies:


Reply author: Teakwood
Replied on: 11/11/2004 12:39:25 AM
Message:

9x18 Ultra, also called 9mm Police
This is NOT the same as 9x18 Makarov.
From Makarov.com:
9x17 = 9mm Kurz = 9mm Short = .380 ACP. Bullet diameter = .356"
9x18Ultra = 9mm Police. Bullet diameter = .356" (used in some Walther pistols...do not shoot this in your Makarov).
9x18M = 9mm Makarov. Bullet diameter = .364"
9x19 = 9mm = 9mm Parabellum = 9mm Luger. Bullet diameter = .356"


Reply author: SlimTim
Replied on: 11/11/2004 01:50:58 AM
Message:

9x18 Ultra isn't the same as 9mm Police, at least according to the following:

From the FAQL at http://makarov.com :

http://makarov.com/makfaq.html



SlimTim


Reply author: Teakwood
Replied on: 11/11/2004 08:11:21 AM
Message:

ST
the set of equations I posted above were a quote from Makarov.com and refer to the relative bullet size.


Reply author: SlimTim
Replied on: 11/11/2004 11:05:42 AM
Message:

Guess I misread, sorry. You had put a period after the equation, then went on to say the bullet size was the same.

SlimTim


Reply author: Teakwood
Replied on: 11/11/2004 8:48:50 PM
Message:

ST
I believe that the bullet size is the same between Ultra and Police, but the cartridge case size, as you pointed out, is slightly different.

The important point was that neither is 9x18 Makarov.

Salute


Reply author: Jehzsa
Replied on: 11/12/2004 10:44:19 AM
Message:

Unfortunately, nobody exactly knows what were the exact dimensions of the 1935-1936 Ultra cartridge. For all we know the dimensions presented could be it. But then again, perhaps not.

The Nazis had a knack for destroying documentation like that shortly before the end of the war, e.g., Walther, Geco. Gustav Genschow came up first with the idea of a 9mm midway cartridge between the short and the luger. Needed more umphh than the 380 could provide and less expense and simplicity than the manufacture of a 9L pistol. Problem was, while using the platform of a Walther PP, nobody could hit the side (any side) of the Reichstag, from the inside. It probably was a pretty hot round, a la Hirtenberger today. Talk about Walther bite! So there it went into the blue yonder along with other famous inventions like the 8-track player and root canals. The Nazis were keen in inflicting pain, not necessarily in receiving it.

The dimensions of the present-day Geco Ultra round are exactly the same as the Fiocchi Police round. Which are the same as the Hirtenberger. As to the 1935-1936 round, take a guess. BTW, bullet diameter should be .355. And if someone has a copy of the experimental Walther PP 9x18U model, please give me a call. My house can withstand a mortgage.


Reply author: 9x18
Replied on: 11/12/2004 3:39:09 PM
Message:

I wonder if this is what got Thomas interested ? http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=25335401 It sounds like he has imported more than a couple of 9x18U Walthers. Oh, Jeezsa, I asked him about a SIG 230 and he said no but he had a Benelli. Maybe this seller could find you that HSc in Ultra ?


Reply author: Jehzsa
Replied on: 11/12/2004 7:32:55 PM
Message:

Thanks, 9x18. I just asked seller about the Mauser.

BTW, if you are interested in buying a Sig P230 in 9x18Ultra(Police), I've located one in England. Photo is included in the website and it looks pretty good. Excellent condition. If interested, let me know and I'll e-mail you the address.


Reply author: 9x18
Replied on: 11/12/2004 9:49:26 PM
Message:

England huh? Wouldn't that require a special import license,etc. ? I know I've seen someone (Simpson Ltd. or SSME ) that does imports for I think around $100. Or more, I don't really remember.Thanks for the offer Jehzsa, but I don't know if I want to get into that just yet.

Besides, now I'm lusting after a Lahti and/or a Walther P88. I,m really jonesing for an L-35/M-40 Lahti bad but I don't know why, I've never even seen one in person.


Reply author: Jehzsa
Replied on: 11/13/2004 10:30:14 AM
Message:

Hello 9x18,
If your Lahti is anywhere like their AK-47, I'm certain you'll love it. The Finns have a knack for taking a good thing and making it, somehow, better. Be it a L35/M40 or a P88(compact is a great carry gun), I can understand why you don't want to become involved with importing. Makes the acquisition more expensive than usual and it's a true hassle. On top of that, the wait. Not exactly almost instant gratification.

Think I saw a Lahti at a recent Tampa gunshow. Wasn't looking for one. If I can make it to the next one, will look around and I'll get you the details.

BTW, it's SSME. $105. $115.00? Don't exactly remember now. For their service.


Reply author: chunkstyle
Replied on: 11/13/2004 11:26:56 PM
Message:

I saw an Ultra Walther, at a Cabela's, not too long ago. They had no Ultra ammo, but did have Hornady Mak ammo. I doubt the sales staff knew the difference. I hope no one bought it and tried to put Mak ammo in it.


Reply author: 9x18
Replied on: 11/14/2004 6:17:26 PM
Message:

Same thing with me. I spotted mine in a gunshop I frequent mismarked as 9x18 Makarov. I happened to know better and bought it as it appeared new and unfired, with box and papers. I was a little nervous about it . Don't you think the larger diameter bullet would have severely bulged the barrel, if not ruptured it ? I wonder if it would even chamber the round ? I may try it just to see.


Reply author: chunkstyle
Replied on: 11/15/2004 01:24:47 AM
Message:

I wouldn't. Likely it won't even chamber. But satisfying your curiosity is not enough reason to risk losing your hand over.


Reply author: Jehzsa
Replied on: 11/15/2004 8:00:33 PM
Message:

The 9x18U is slightly tapered. I don't think a 9x18M will chamber on a 9x18U pistol. If it does, I'm pretty certain it will give a whole new different meaning to the phrase "it's not size that matters but width". And if fired it will probably look like Santa after Thanksgiving dinner. Red, frosty and bulged in the middle.

And so, that slight taper, makes me think that the 9x18M was not necessarily conceived after nor designed with the 9x18U in mind. For whatever it's worth(and assuredly not a lot), now I believe that the 9x18M is a creature all its own. A singular, unique, totally independent Soviet invention. Like Matruschkas. Not owing its existence to any particular cartridge.

The thing that bothers me is the .364. BTW, where in history there's another .364 bullet in a cartridge? Before the M not after. The 9x18 is easy. More umphh than the 9x17 but not the expense of building a 9x19 pistol. And then, retain the accuracy of a fixed barrel, without going into additional stuff like the PSP or the Steyr GB. The .355 of the Ultra is easy. The heck, they invented it(or came up with it). But a .364. That takes a giant leap. Which I believe makes the 9x18M unique. Not owing its existence to any other cartridge.

Sounds looney enough?


Reply author: Teakwood
Replied on: 11/15/2004 8:58:49 PM
Message:

As I recall, Makarov made a consious decision in selecting the bullet's diameter. He always claimed that the pistol and his cartride was his unique design, not copy of something else. In regard to the pistol, I certainly cannot argue its uniquenes. After all, the Makarov has about 25 parts, the Walther has over 40.

There is one other item in regard to Russian calibers: they had a penchance for selecting their cartridges so that that in a pinch they could use enemy ammo, but the enemy could not use theirs. For example, in a life or death situation, one could fire 9x17 in a 9x18 Mak, but one could not do the opposite without risking serious injury.


Reply author: Jehzsa
Replied on: 11/15/2004 9:26:14 PM
Message:

And so my confusion reigns supreme!

Wasn't the Makarov cartridge developed by Boris Wladimirowitsch Semin?


Reply author: Teakwood
Replied on: 11/15/2004 11:41:59 PM
Message:

Jehzsa, I found at least one source that supported your contention regarding Boris Wladimirowitsch Semin. Therefore, I apologize. From some of my reading I had gained the impression that Makarov invented the round. I need to do a little more research on the matter.


Reply author: Jehzsa
Replied on: 11/16/2004 12:15:11 AM
Message:

My sinus headache really threw me off because it was another name that I remembered regarding the cartridge. And as it turns out even the name was way off.


Reply author: 9x18
Replied on: 11/16/2004 4:17:47 PM
Message:

I recall reading somewhere that the initial work on the makarov cartridge was in wartime Germany. The Soviets continued the work using the preliminary endeavor and maybe even some of the actual nazis. Could this have been the 9x18U instead ?

Naturally, being of a doddering mind I can't recall where I read such a thing. I think someone on the forum should write us a book on the whole thing, Jehzsa for instance .


Reply author: Jehzsa
Replied on: 11/16/2004 5:02:10 PM
Message:

You've got to be kidding, 9x18. Never proffer such words. It would be a lot smaller than the little red book. About half a page long!

Most of what I've read, and all when addressing the particular subject, seems to proclaim the 9x18U as the "father" of the 9x18M. Perhaps this is due to the fact that most, when addressing the subject, state that the PM was "copied" from or designed based on the Walther PP platform.

I don't think so. On both accounts.


Reply author: rhm
Replied on: 05/08/2006 2:55:04 PM
Message:

I purchased a Walther PP Super, marked Cal 9X18, but of course a 9x18 Makarov round will not chamber.

Which round was it designed to chamber, the Ultra or the Police 9X18?? Where can you buy the ammo?


Reply author: North Bender
Replied on: 05/08/2006 3:06:10 PM
Message:

Fires the Police.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg148-e.htm

Welcome to the forum rhm, come back.


Reply author: Jehzsa
Replied on: 05/09/2006 09:27:53 AM
Message:

Which round was it designed to chamber, the Ultra or the Police 9X18?? Where can you buy the ammo? [/quote ]

Geco calls it Ultra. Fiocchi calls it Police. Hirtenberger used to call it Ultra. Hirtenberg now calls it Police. It's all the same, Ultra or Police.

Geco can be purchased at SOG. Got to call them, not on their website. Around $8.00/50. Fiocchi can be purchased with Schrader's @ 410-758-1824. Around $19.00/50. Not exactly worth it comparing both specs'. Hirtenberger is not available commercially in the US AFAIK. But if you find some, stock up. And please forward me the info. The hottest of the three.

Btw, if you like the caliber, http://www.ssmedwi.com/Pistols page 2.htm
Not many out there. Scroll down, after FEG. This was a shipment of 25. Means that there are 26 in the US. AFAIK.
 
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