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Discussion Starter #1
Ronin48
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 10:10:43 PM
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At Oct. Tulsa show noted late on last day a 70/87 Vett TS carbine on one table. Had exhausted my funds so no purchase. Checked area where Vett. was at this month's Tulsa show and located dealer. He had Vett. Cav carbine with b'net, $650 and the 70/87 TS carbine. On close examination I noted an anomalous front sight, long rifle rear sight and a 'nose cap' on crooked. A cut-down long rifle. Price was $250. A Vetterli carbine fake??? What is this world coming to???



NebrHogger
Posted - 04/08/2004 : 08:18:13 AM
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Yeah, and after going to all that trouble, it was only priced at 250?? SW



DocAV
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 12:16:47 AM
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Not necessarily a Fake.
Just as the M91 Long Rifle was cut down officially in 1924 to make M91/24 TS short rifles, VV70/87 were reduced to TS length in the same period for use in Italy's African Colonies, by native troops and Police. Italy never had an official VV Carbine ( as in Cav Carbine) in its metropolitan Army, but it did "convert"a small batch of Vetterli M 70 cav. carbs to the Vitali magazine for the Eritrean natice cavalry (500 made, three known today).
Many unrecorded variants of former long rifles were "cut down" for colonial use, not only by Italy, but many other European nations with African Interests as well.



Ronin48
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 09:20:07 AM
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Any added markings on the conversions?



DocAV
Posted - 04/11/2004 : 9:46:53 PM
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None that I have seen, being that most of the VV Shorties were done "in Country" by the Unit Armourers, and it was expected the a lot of the Black Powder rifles would "walk" as the Smokeless M91TS were introduced more generally ( or the M95 Stutzen, which were the standard Native Issue after WW I)

My original M70/87 VV Cav Carbine (Eritrean) obviously "walked" as it was acquired between 1918 and 1928 by a Queenslander serving the Surveyor-General's Office in Sudan from a Sudanese tribesman.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Italian Vetterli Vitali TS M. 70/87 carbine - rare?

B1acksmith
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 09:13:41 AM
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Has anyone ever heard of this gun? The only TSs I have seen did not have a Vitali mag and used the reversable bayonet. This looks like a made up gun? Any thoughts?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?item=27486123



Ronin48
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 10:25:17 AM
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Rifle (carbine) is OK. Cavalry and 'police' carbines have reversable b'nets, TS had the b'net lug on the barrel side. My 70/87 TS is G3239, Brescia, 1885. It DOES NOT have the two "recoil lug"-looking items under the receiver as shown in the one in question.



B1acksmith
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 1:12:24 PM
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Learn something new every day. Thanks. I'm not interested in it, but want to learn as much as I can about these Vetterlis since I have a nice 70/87 that sits beside my Swiss 71 in the safe. The Swiss have a nice book out about them, but have not seen very much on the Italians.



DMala
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 1:18:53 PM
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Vetterli 70/87 TS carbines are uncommon in the US, but maybe to define them as "rare" is a bit too much. Over the past 4 years I may have seen 4-5 for sale.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Vetterli Moschetti

DocAV
Posted - 06/10/2005 : 01:00:41 AM
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To start off, the Vetterli M70 "Carbine" ( "Moschetto da cavalleria")
Comes in only one model, but the finish of the parts may be different. The "Corazzieri " ( Cuirassiers) model was solely for the Royal Guard (Corazzieri del Re) who wore a Ceremonial Uniform including a polished steel cuirass, hence the name; they were also in excess of 6 foot tall ( 1,83 metres), and were NOT Cavalrymen, but Carabinieri (the Senior Service in the Italian Army.)

The Vetterli Corazzieri Moschetto was finished with Polished Bright Fittings; later Carcano for similar ceremonial duty were Gold Plated.

The Cavalry Carbine Vetterli was used by both Cavalry and Carabinieri, a practice which continued into the Carcano era.

The Moschetto da Cavalleria is not to be confused with the "Vetterli Moschetto TS" (Special troops short rifle.) Which uses a standard Rifle Long Knofe bayonet. ( Also used by Carabinieri in War Zones, especially during WW I, for Military Police Duty.)



FixBayonets
Posted - 06/10/2005 : 10:01:34 AM
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OK, I think I got it. What is the reference to the different bayonet lengths in Janzen then? Is my bayonet with a 450mm length indicative of anything significant?

Also, I just acquired a M1870 TS Short Rifle (single shot). The long blade 1870 bayonet fits just fine, but I was told that the proper bayonet is the short cruciform type TS or Truppe di Africa bayonet.



JPS
Posted - 06/10/2005 : 8:31:43 PM
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Doc AV:
The Cavalry Carbine Vetterli was used by both Cavalry and Carabinieri, a practice which continued into the Carcano era.
Yo Bob and DocAv,

I have to correct you on this one Doc. The Carabinieri were in fact issued with a separate version of the Vetterli that was produced specifically for them. The "Moschetto da Carabinieri" is nearly identical to the Cavalry carbine in configuration; however, it is the same length as the longer TS Carbine.

Bob, I will have to measure the bayonets on my examples of the Carabinieri carbine. I believe that they are the longer version that you are talking about in terms of there being different lengths of the socket bayonet. The "Moschetto da Carabinieri" is officially listed as the "Modelo 1882" for the year of it's introduction. You are most likely correct in your statement above, Doc, in that the Caribinieri were most likely issued with the cavalry carbine prior to the introduction of this model.

I have two "Moschetto da Carabinieri, Modelo 1882" in my collection. One is a straight model 1882 while the other is a wartime Model 82/15, which was converted to 6.5mm during WWI. Here is a photo of the Carabinieri carbines shown with a Model 1870 TS carbine for comarison. Note the overall length of all three carbines. The cavalry carbine is much shorter than both of these models

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/JPS/2005610203025_VetterliCarbines-70TS, 82 Gend & 82-15 Gend.jpg
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Hope this info helps! I received your email Bob, however, I am really backed up from my last trip. I may have to leave again for China this weekend.........I hope not, but we'll see. I've only been home for a week!???



FixBayonets
Posted - 06/11/2005 : 2:13:29 PM
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John,
I see in your picture the 1870 TS Carbine is matched up with one of the short TS cruciform type bayonets. Would this be the correct bayonet as well for the longer TS Short rifle that I have? Or would a standard full length bayonet be proper?



JPS
Posted - 06/12/2005 : 12:18:58 AM
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Yo Bob,

I am only aware of one length TS carbine, but heah! we learn something new every day! Can you post some photos of the rifle in question? All of the TS carbines that I have ever examined were the same length as the single shot example in my photo. Perhaps someone else out there can answer your question? I would love to see your rifle.

Regarding bayonets, at one time or another, I am sure that just about every pattern of Vetterli bayonet was issued with each of the various rifles and carbines that would accept them. Most of these rifles were reissued during WWI with what ever was available.

Hope this helps! How about some photos?



FixBayonets
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 06:55:02 AM
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John,
I will be posting some photos shortly. My description of TS Short Rifle is based on the nomenclature in Websters book, page 58&59. I reread it ands he actually calls it a "TS Rifle" not "TS Short Rifle" sorry! It actually is a "Short" rifle though. In the book , It is described as having a barrel length of 60.7 cm. This is the length of my gun. The rear sights are mid size between the Cav. Carbine I have and the 70/87 Rifle I have. Is this correct, or a case of wrong info from a book again? The picture of the rifle shown on page 59 is of a "short" Rifle not a carbine length gun though.
Please advise.



FixBayonets
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 10:27:35 AM
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Note...Top is the Cav Carbine, middle is the Short Rifle, bottom is the 70/87 Rifle. The rear sight leaf on the short rifle is smaller than the Infantry Rifle. Note also the rear band placement. This is not a cutdown Infantry Rifle.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/fixbayonets/2005613102037_P1010155.JPG
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/fixbayonets/2005613102114_P1010156.JPG
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/fixbayonets/2005613102140_P1010157.JPG
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JPS
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 5:45:26 PM
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Yo Bob,

Very interesting indeed? Thanks for posting the photos. It appears as though your TS carbine (or short rifle if you prefer) has been upgraded at some point in time based on the rear sights. The example in my photo has the original rear sight, which is identical to the cavalry carbine sight. However, at some point between 1870 and 1882, they must have changed the loads for this cartridge or simply decided that the original sight was not adequate. Note that your rear sight looks very much like the rear sight on the M82 Gendarmerie carbines. Very interesting.

As far as overall length goes, your rifle is the standard length. If you note the distance from the barrel band to the end of the forearm and in turn to the end of the muzzle, you will see that your carbine is the same length as mine.

Nice find! You are amassing quite a collection. I'm slowly getting jealous! Thanks again for the photos.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Ronin48
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 09:09:41 AM
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As I understand it, one of the Vetterli 70 carbines was not converted to 70/87 or 70/87/15. If correct which one is "missing?"

Anyone have Dick Hobbs phone #?



DocAV
Posted - 07/21/2006 : 03:38:11 AM
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Both.
The Vetterli carbine remained officially a single shot during its entire service.
BUT, 500 Vetterli carbines were transferred from the Army to the "Fondo Eritreo" (Eritrean Fund, the predecessor of Italy's Ministry of Colonies) to supply in 1888, the native Colonial cavalry in the newly established Colony of Eritrea (previously a private concession of the Rubattino Shipping Company).

These 500 carbines were fitted with the Vitali M87 magazine system, and issued only in Eritrea. Their survival rate is very small ( 4 known examples noted (2 Italy, 1 USA and 1 Australia).

As to the M70/87/15 or 16 6,5mm conversions, it seems that only the Long Rifles were converted, but the TS short rifles and the M70 Cav. Carbines were left as is. In any case, a largew number of the shorter pieces were by 1915 in Colonial Service, or sold as Surplus, or shipped to the Imperial Russian Army.
The Conversion was done to what was still in large quantity in Italy, ie the Long Rifle, M70/87.

I am unsure if M70/87 TS were also converted...there are Photos of rear area troops with TS rifles, but it is impossible to determine whether they are in 10,4 or 6,5, as the magazine boxes are not visitble.

In any case, any of the smaller conversions would be rare as hens teeth, having started from small initial numbers, anyway.



JPS
Posted - 07/21/2006 : 07:31:40 AM
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Yo Doc and Doss,

While there is no evidence that I know of that supports any of the M70 Cavalry Carbines having been converted to 6.5x52mm Carcano, both the M1870 TS Carbine and the M1882 Carabinieri Carbines were converted to 6.5x52mm in some quantity. I have examples of both in my collection.

Interestingly enough, the M70 TS conversion in my collection was first converted to the 70/87 configuration and then later to 6.5mm, making it a M1870/87/15. This is confirmed by the presence of the gap between the outline of the Vitali box magazine and the more slender Carcano magazine having been plugged with wooden inserts on either side of the Carcano magazine.

The M82 Carabinieri on the other hand was converted directly to 6.5x52mm Carcano straight from it's original single shot configuration as is evidenced by the absence of the inserts on either side of the magazine. That would officially make this example a M1882/15.

This photo shows three of my Vetterlis and includes the Model 1882/15. I will dig through my files to see if I have a photo of the Model 1870/87/15 TS Carbine. If I can find a photo, I'll add it to this thread.

Warmest regards,

JPS

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/JPS/200672173120_VetterliCarbines-70TS, 82 Gend & 82-15 Gend.jpg
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DocAV
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 10:22:15 AM
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Thanks JPS, for clearing up[ this mystery about "other" 6,5 conversions of Vetterlis.

BTW, the Italian Gov't still had large quantities of V-V rifles still in 10,4 calibre, as during WW I they ordered (1916) several Millions sets of components from one of the major US cartridge makers, for assembly in Italy. ( so there may be Boxer-primed Remchester Vetterli ammo out there somewhere...maybe East Africa??? ( from published lists of US munitions supplies to Western Allies 1915-1918).



dg13
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 2:54:29 PM
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Hi Guys;
I finally got around to photoing the carbine that DocAV was talking about.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/dg13/2006723145316_IMG_0025-1.jpg
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DocAV
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 11:19:11 PM
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dg13, I think your last photo above is a M1890 Turk, rather than the Vett.Vit. 70/88 Eritrea.

Also the rear sight on your VV-E carbine looks very similar to the later M1891 Cav Carbine rear sight (but different).

Yours is Torino, mine is Torre Annunciata (Naples), so they must have just Pulled carbines at random from service, fitted the Modification, and then sent them off to Asmara (Colonial capital of the Eritrea Colony.)



JPS
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 12:43:07 AM
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Yo Doc, Darrell & Doss,

Beautiful carbine Darrell and unquestionably extremely rare! I'll keep my eyes peeled for a bayonet to complete your carbine. Without the bayonet, it looks like an unframed painting!

Doc, I don't seem to have a photo with me of the Modelo 1870/87/15 "TS" carbine converted to 6.5x52mm Carcano, but I will try and remember to shoot a series of photos to add to this thread when I get home.

From top to bottom in the photo..................

Modelo 1870 "TS" carbine
Modelo 1882 Caribinieri carbine
Modelo 1882/15 Caribinieri carbine

In addition to the M 70/87/15 "TS", over the years I have encountered at least five examples of the Vetterli-Vitali "TS" 70/87. Three were in private collections and not for sale and the remaining two I passed on since for some reason they both had had their bayonet lugs removed? Otherwise, I would have purchased one of them.

If memory serves me correctly Doss, didn't you have a M70/87 Vetterli-Vitali in your collection? It seems to me I remember you mentioning that in a thread a year or so ago? Any chance you have a photo you can post?

Great stuff Gents!

Warmest regards,

JPS



Ronin48
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 8:25:34 PM
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I have the '70 TS and cav carbines Actually have two cavs, one may be a prototype (?), no SN and slighly different front band. '70/87 TS and 70/87/15, TS and Carebinera (sp.) What am I missing, common- wise?
 

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Vetterli Moschetto

Gentlemen,

To anyone interested in the subject, there is an article on the Vetterli Moschetto Cavalleria featured in The Gun Report we wrote, which covers shooting.

G and L A-R-West
 
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