Unfortunately, all the pictures had vanished...
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Gun_Nut
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 01:54:31 AM
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Which wars was this model used in and to what degree. Just want ot get a sense of the history behind my new gun.
DocAV
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 09:10:51 AM
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Well, if it was an original Vetterli 70, converted after 1887, the only "Wars" it could have been involved in were the skirmishes in Eritrea/Ethiopia in the late 1880s ( 1889, mostly); They were still on issue in 1896 at Adowa, when a brigade of Italian white and native troops was massacred by the Ethiopian forces.(Only a couple of Journalists had (private) M91 Carcano carbines). By 1900 ( Peking Expedition) all combat troops were issued with the Carcano M91 series. Colonial levies were issued the VV (both conversions and new made) from the early 1900s, as metropolitan troops were issued M91s;
Only those VV rifles in store in Italy were converted by tubing in 1915-16, for issue as a stopgap to training units and Rear echelon Guard/Transport units; Issues were also made to the gunlockers of Naval ships, to free up the M91s for use by Combat units of Naval Infantry during WW I.
After WW I, the VV70/87/15 & 16 were relegated to store. I have no information or seen any photographic evidence of their being issued to Colonial troops or irregulars at all.
It is known that a large number of original Black powder VV 70/87 were sent to Russia as aid in 1915-16 (ammunition components were ordered from US ammo makers in late 1915, for delivery to Italy ( cases, bullets, and primers); some did show up during the Spanish Civil War(Soviet Aid) and the early stages of the German Invasion of Russia (1941). In 1914, German wholesalers (ALFA, etc) held large stocks of surplus V70 and VV70/87 Long and Short rifles, and the use of these is suspected to have been the delivery to Austria.
I would surmise that once converted to the 6,5 version during WWI, they had very little use outside of guard and training use; and were then stored away unti the 1950s, when surplused. There is no record of use during the 1930s and WW II at all.
NebrHogger
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 12:39:42 PM
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Doc,
Thank you! This is a topic I had speculated on for some time, myself. Given the generous margin in the magazine and the attendant cartridge feeding problems therefrom, I would hope to be equipped with a very sharp bayonet if my personal arms were one of these conversions and, say, one of the folding trigger Italain revolvers when a horde of hashish-intoxicated, homocidal dervishes came whirling my way!SW
Gun_Nut
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 9:15:06 PM
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Thanks Doc, that's a real good history lesson. I'll print it out and save it with my rifle.
JPS
Posted - 08/09/2004 : 8:31:15 PM
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Yo Gun_Nut & Company,
To add to the information provided by DocAv, between 1915 and 1916, the Italians sent 400,000 10.4x47mmR Model 1870/87 Vetterli-Vitali repeating rifles to Russia. The Russians were woefully short of rifles throughout the entire war. The Vetterli-Vitali's were issued to regular army units serving in the front line trenches on the Eastern Front as well as to reserve infantry formations.
In 1890, a 10.4x47mmR smokeless powder load (ballistite) was introduced with a jacketed bullet, however, much of the ammunition supplied to Russia by the Italians was older ammunition that was still loaded with blackpowder. All of the Russian sources I have encountered list the M70/87 as having been a blackpowder weapon. I have a photo or two of Russian soldiers armed with Vetterli-Vitalis, but they are on my other computer. I will add what ever photos I can find to this thread later.
Regarding the Italian use of the Vetterli, both the M70/87 as well as the M70/87/15, saw combat action during WWI in the hands of Italian troops, particularly following the disasterous 12th Battle of the Isonzo, better known today as the Battle of Caparetto.
The battle saw the introduction of stormtrooper tactics on the Italian Front for the first time during the war. These tactics, combined with command mistakes made by one of the Italian subordinate generals commanding elements of Italian 2nd Army, lead to one of the greatest disasters of the war.
The Austro-Hungarian 14th Army, stiffened with the addition of seven crack divisions of German troops, completely took the Italians by surpise with a lighting four hour barrage of HE, smoke and gas, followed by swarms of sturmtruppen. The Italian Isonzo Front crumbled as the 2nd Army disintergrated. The Italian 3rd and 4th Armies managed to withdraw in good order, however, the destruction of the 2nd Army left the Italian Alpine units cut off and surrounded. Eighteen days after the offensive began, the Italians managed to stabilize the front after a Central Powers penetration of nearly 100 miles south into Italy. What saved the Italian Army was the fact that the Central Powers offensive had out run it's supply lines.
In less than three weeks, the Italian Army had lost 40,000 killed, wounded and missing and another 275,000 men taken prisoner. They had lost tons and tons of war materials and the morale of the Italian troops was at it's lowest point of the entire war. It is against the back drop of Caparetto that one can understand why reserve troops were sent into combat armed with Vetterli rifles in an effort to help stabilize the newly established front lines.
The Vetterli's are interesting rifles with an unusual history. Hope this info adds to your understanding of the use of the Vetterli during WWI. I'll try and find those photos later.
Have a great week.
Warmest regards,
JPS
JPS
Posted - 08/09/2004 : 8:55:25 PM
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Here is one photo. I may have a few more on discs. I'll post them if I can find them.
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Gun_Nut
Posted - 08/10/2004 : 12:33:48 AM
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Thanks for the added information. I really apperciate it and I am sure others do as well. I will print yours out as well and keep them together.
Great photo too! I've been reading a book called Nations at War, written in 1917 from the American perspective. Very informative with a ton of great picture form the war. Very interesting to hear people talk before we entered the war. I also rented all the WWI and some WWII movies I could find last couple of weekends. The Lost Battalion was real good. But I digress. Thanks again for the good information.
NebrHogger
Posted - 08/10/2004 : 06:41:30 AM
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JPS,
Thank you!! Have any Russky-marked Italian Vetterlis surfaced in America? Have they Cyrillic markings? SW
Carcano
Posted - 08/10/2004 : 07:17:46 AM
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Dear DocAV, I almost might be inclined to a little bet...
Incidentally, I remember a pic of Italian secondary or tertiary reserve troops from the late 920s or early 1930s which shows most soldiers armed with VV 1870/87/15.
JPS
Posted - 08/10/2004 : 12:57:23 PM
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To date, I have not been able to locate a VV 70/87 that can be definitely confirmed as Russian. There are a number of potential reasons why. It may simply be a matter of luck, however, on the other hand, they may never have been marked. I have studied Russian WWI weapons for a long time and have confirmed the following, which may have some bearing on the likelyhood of finding a Russian marked Vetterli-Vitali. As examples.....................
1) The Russians marked imported Model 95 Winchesters in two different manners. There were 300,000 purchased during the war. All of these rifles that were actually shipped to Russia are inspection marked. This example is marked with a Cyrillic P (II) on top the receiver.
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2) The Russian Army acquired 450,000 Mle 1874/80 Gras rifles from France during WWI. I have examined many of these rifles and have in my collection, two Russian marked Gras rifles as well as inspection marked Gras bayonets. Some, but not all of the Russian marked Gras rifles I have examined are marked "Made in France". The Russian marked Mle 74 Gras bayonets were inspected at Sestroryetsk and are marked with the Sestroryetsk arrow in the mounting groove on the pommel.
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3) The Russians also purchased 105,000 Mle 1884 Kropatchek rifles from France. The majority of Mle 84 Kropatchek rifles I have examined that were imported from Spain, came from Russia and have Russian inspection marks. My example has a Russian Cyrillic P, a common Russian inspection mark, stamped on the heel of the stock. I have examined others rifles that were marked with Cyrillic Ps on the receiver flat, identical to the Gras rifles shown above. Some have also been mark with a P on the side of the stock. All of them have been import marked "Made in France".
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4) The Russians purchased 600,000 Arisakas from Japan, a mixture of Type 30, 38 and 44s. They also acquired 35,400 unissued Type 38 Arisakas from the Mexican contract in 7x57mm Mauser directly from Japan. During the war, they also acquired an additional 128,000 Type 38 rifles from Great Britain. I have examined a broad cross section of these rifles in museums in Russia, Austria, the Czech Republic, Belgium, France and Italy. They are without question, Russian issued weapons. Many of them bear WWI German and Austro-Hungarian capture marks. None of the rifles I have seen that are of Russian issue has any decernable Russian inspection marks at all? I have an Austro-Hungarian captured, reworked and reissued Type 30 Arisaka in my collection. Like those in the museums in Europe, the rifle is not marked in any way.
5) I have examined Russian issued Mle 1886/93 Lebel rifles supplied to Russia by France during the war. The French shipped 86,000 Lebels to Russia for front line use on the Eastern Front. Those that I have examined that are known to have been Russian issue, have no Russian marks what so ever.
Why the Russians marked some of the imported rifles and not others is beyond me? Perhaps there are some number of marked Arisakas floating around out there. Could be? But to date, I have not found any in years of actively looking. Nobody on the Japanese Forum that I know of has ever seen one either.
The best chance of locating a Russian issued Vetterli-Vitali would be to locate one of the rifle with the 1950s vintage import mark. I would imagine that one of these rifles would be marked "Made in Italy" in Enlgish somewhere on the barrel or receiver, just as the above rifles are marked "Made in France".
These rifles were imported into the US from Spain in the 1950s. It is well documented that Stalin shipped large numbers of obsolete rifles to the Republican forces fighting in the Spanish Civil War. There is an excellent book entitled, "Rifles for Spain" that has all of the detail. I have the info somewhere, but not here at my finger tips. Many of these rifles were the remnants of the emergency imports of 1915 and 1916, that survived WWI, the Revolution and the Russian Civil War. M70/87 Vetterli-Vertallis were among the models shipped to Spain. To date, I have not been able to locate any of these rifles. If I can find one, I will pay up substantially for it, as it is the best chance of finding a Russian issued M70/87 VV rifle.
If any of you out there have a rifle marked in this manner, I would be very interested to hear about it.
Hope this info helps.
Warmest regards,
JPS
B1acksmith
Posted - 08/11/2004 : 08:12:05 AM
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An addition to the history is that in 1912 the Ulster Volunteer Force (pro-British, anti-Ireland home rule) bought M70s and M70/87s from a dealer in Germany. The Brits confiscated most of them. Good artilcle on the Italian V's in "Man of Arms" Vol 26, #1. I got the mag then stumbled across a nice 10.35M M70/87 at a gun show the next week. It is in the gun safe next to my two Swiss Vs waiting for some TLC.
bayoned
Posted - 08/11/2004 : 12:45:25 PM
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To JPS,
What great information !!!!!! I have many of these types of rifles in my collection, and now you've got me scurrying back to the cabinet to peer closely at each one.
Thanks for all of your research and sharing it with us.
Regards, Ned
DocAV
Posted - 08/11/2004 : 11:28:08 PM
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As to the Peking fracas, the Italian Naval Infantry guarding the legation (from the ships at Tientsin) were armed with Vetterli-Ferraciu' or Vetterli-Bertoldo (Naval) Short rifles (TS); However, the Bersaglieri who came with the relief force and the occupation were armed with M91 TS.
To JPS, the "modernised" M90 10,4 Vetterli cartridge was smokeless powder with a Brass washed (not jacketed) projectile (same modernization was applied to the 10,4 Glisenti Cartridge). Sometime closer to WW I, the use of a drawn thinwalled jacket was introduced (1899 Hague Convention)
The Components supplied from the USA to Italy during WW I (maker???) were of the conventional jacketed type.
Thanks for the extra info, John.
Regards, Doc AV
Gun_Nut
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 01:43:08 AM
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Boy, am I glad I asked!!!! What a great thread, full of awesome information.
bayoned
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 11:54:58 AM
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My Italian 70/87 Vetterli-Vitali has the "Made in Italy" import stamp on the top flat of the barrel. You have to raise the rear sight leaf to see it.
I gleaned this info from my inventory list, but need to actually dig it out from the depths of my cabinet if you need any additional info on marks.
Regards, Ned
JPS
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 12:40:16 PM
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Yo Bayoned,
Excellent! When time permits, please pull the rifle out of storage and go over it with a fine toothed comb. I would be very interested in each and every mark that is present on the rifle. Some Russian marked weapons are marked on the barrel receiver group, while other are marked on the sides of the stock, the comb of the stock just ahead of the buttplate, etc. The buttplate tang is also a potential location. If it is marked, it will most likely be with the Cyrillic P, which per the photos above, looks like two capitol I's side by side and joined at the top, but not the bottom. It's possible that it might be marked in some other way, however, we'll just have to see if there is anything there at all. Great find! Thanks in advance, Ned, for your help with this.
Warmest regards,
JPS
JPS
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 12:51:13 PM
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Thanks for clearing that up. I am hardly a cartridge expert and took my info from Jean Huon's book, where he states,
"Jacketed ball cartridge, M1890 (Cartuccia a pallotola, M90 per armi M70 e M70-87)
Mind you, I have found other mistakes in Huon's work, but did not have enough background in this particular area to challenge his information. When I read "ball", I immediately think jacketed.
Thank you for setting the record straight. Your knowledge in this area never ceases to amaze me. I always look forward to your input, even though you are an attorney! (grin........smile........lol.......LMAO) Just funnin ya Doc!
Now, with a little bit of luck, perhaps Ned can help us determine if the Ruskies marked their M70/87s. I have little doubt that this particular rifle was shipped to Spain from Russia. Interesting stuff!
Warmest regards,
JPS
bayoned
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 1:30:42 PM
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Alright, I feel the pressure, and hope I won't dissapoint !
I hope to get to this ASAP, but may not be able to get to it until the later part of next week. (it's buried DEEP, and need my wife to go shopping for a few uninterupted hours) She IS leaving town on next Thursday night, so while the cat's away.....
Please send me a reminder email if I haven't posted anything by next Friday !!!!!!!
I now have a digital camera, and (hopefully)can also post some pics as well.
Regards, Ned
NebrHogger
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 5:49:40 PM
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JPS,
Thank you VERY much for your detailed reply!! I would imagine there are a number of these around to be had as 'sleepers' if one has at least part of the Cyrillic alphabet committed to memory! I'm presently dealing for some 1936 Bulgarian 8X50R ammo in clips. It has the Cyrillic VF at the bottom and the stylized lion at the top. The guy's kind of proud of it (just becaudse I'm interested, maybe) so I'll do a little research on the pricing. Thanks again! SW
JPS
Posted - 08/13/2004 : 10:29:49 AM
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Yo Gents,
I am posting these photos on behalf of Bayoned. He has some glitch in his computer which does not permit him to post photos. I'm very appreciative of his efforts and the breakthrough in research he has brought us through his examination of the "Made in Italy" marked VV70/87 he has in his collection.
He braved the potential fall out from his Wife, waded through a closet full of weapons and shot these photos, knowing all the time, that she could appear at any moment, back from the grocery store! You deserve a medal for this, Ned!
Ned's VV70/87 is indeed one of the rifles that was shipped to Russia during WWI and then found it's way back to the US via the Spanish Civil War. It has the "Made in Italy" stamp on top of the barrel flat, underneath the rear sight. On the underside of the stock, just ahead of the front floor plate tang, the rifle is marked with a Cyrillic P (II). There is a second Cyrillic P on the underside of the forend, just behind the bottom barrel band. In addition, there is another Russian mark, which I have never seen before, on the right side of the stock, just below the bolt way. This mark consists of a Cyrillic L (looks like an A without the crossbar) inside of a circle.
I have looked for a Russian issue VV70/87 for years and was never, until now, able to confirm whether or not they were marked by the Russians. I have checked all of the Vetterli-Vitalis in my collection and none of them bear any of these marks. This is an excellent find! Thanks for sharing this with us Ned!
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Great stuff! Thanks again, Ned, for sharing this with us at great peril to both you and your collection. I'm truly stoked!!!!!
Have a great weekend.
Warmest regards,
JPS
duca
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 09:04:35 AM
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Regards
duca
DMala
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 4:02:06 PM
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Dear Friends, this thread is great! I evidently missed a lot by not checking this board for a while (work overload+vacation). Congratulations to JPS and Bayoned for their work.
JPS
Posted - 08/21/2004 : 5:16:53 PM
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This is one of the great benefits of the Forums. I have been trying to determine how and if these rifles were marked for a long time and Bingo! The right person happens to read the thread and we have a break through in our research and new knowledge regarding an interesting chapter in the history of the VV70/87. Great stuff.
Thanks again Ned!
Warmest regards,
JPS
BP Dave
Posted - 08/24/2004 : 09:36:38 AM
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About three years ago I bought an 1870/87 Vetterli and was puzzled and a little dismayed by the "Made in Italy" stamp over the chamber. Yesterday, prompted by this thread, I dragged it out and lo and behold, it has the "II" stamps in two places on the butt and a "III" on the underside of the forearm just below the first band. Also has the "A with no crossbar" (sorry, Cyrillic isn't my forte) in a circle on the right side. The other stock and metal markings appear to be Italian arsenal. The one I'm not sure about is a "CL"(?) in an oval on the left side of the stock by the action, but it is more worn than the "Russian" stamps and I suspect it is also Italian. So, instead of some rear echelon queen (like my other Italian Vetterli) it looks like my ugly duckling Vetterli served the Italians, then the Russians, then the Spanish Republicans. Fascinating.
bayoned
Posted - 08/26/2004 : 11:56:10 PM
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BP Dave,
The III mark you are refering to on the forend , in my opinion, is the side of the "pi" stamp, rather than the actual inspection mark.
This might imply that the stamp was not placed perfectly square on the stock when it was applied. A common cartouching phenomena
I don't believe you will find the "top inward-turning tail" on all three marks, just two that face each other.
BP Dave
Posted - 09/04/2004 : 11:42:19 AM
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Hi Ned--
I'm attaching photos of the "II" and "III" markings on my Vetterli. I don't know if they have the "top inward-turning tails" you refer to, because I'm not sure what to look for. Perhaps you can tell. I don't believe, however, that the stamps are made by the same die (with one tipped slightly). The spacing looks wrong, and the depth and wear on them suggest (to me, at least) that they were made at different times, or at the very least by people with different strengths in their hammer-arms.
--Dave
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bayoned
Posted - 09/04/2004 : 10:31:08 PM
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I see what you mean.
On your bottom-most photo, it looks like the bottom line of the three is different than the top two, that look like their tops have a serif that face each other. This is very pronounced on my rifle's fore-end mark. It may be a matter of wear, but I think that your bottom line is a side of a stamp, rather than the actual mark. Anyway, that's my theory, having seen lots of sloppy catouches on rifles and pistols.
(especially US ones)
Either way, it's cool to discover the history behind these rifles.
* * *
Gun_Nut
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 01:54:31 AM
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Which wars was this model used in and to what degree. Just want ot get a sense of the history behind my new gun.
DocAV
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 09:10:51 AM
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Well, if it was an original Vetterli 70, converted after 1887, the only "Wars" it could have been involved in were the skirmishes in Eritrea/Ethiopia in the late 1880s ( 1889, mostly); They were still on issue in 1896 at Adowa, when a brigade of Italian white and native troops was massacred by the Ethiopian forces.(Only a couple of Journalists had (private) M91 Carcano carbines). By 1900 ( Peking Expedition) all combat troops were issued with the Carcano M91 series. Colonial levies were issued the VV (both conversions and new made) from the early 1900s, as metropolitan troops were issued M91s;
Only those VV rifles in store in Italy were converted by tubing in 1915-16, for issue as a stopgap to training units and Rear echelon Guard/Transport units; Issues were also made to the gunlockers of Naval ships, to free up the M91s for use by Combat units of Naval Infantry during WW I.
After WW I, the VV70/87/15 & 16 were relegated to store. I have no information or seen any photographic evidence of their being issued to Colonial troops or irregulars at all.
It is known that a large number of original Black powder VV 70/87 were sent to Russia as aid in 1915-16 (ammunition components were ordered from US ammo makers in late 1915, for delivery to Italy ( cases, bullets, and primers); some did show up during the Spanish Civil War(Soviet Aid) and the early stages of the German Invasion of Russia (1941). In 1914, German wholesalers (ALFA, etc) held large stocks of surplus V70 and VV70/87 Long and Short rifles, and the use of these is suspected to have been the delivery to Austria.
I would surmise that once converted to the 6,5 version during WWI, they had very little use outside of guard and training use; and were then stored away unti the 1950s, when surplused. There is no record of use during the 1930s and WW II at all.
NebrHogger
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 12:39:42 PM
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Doc,
Thank you! This is a topic I had speculated on for some time, myself. Given the generous margin in the magazine and the attendant cartridge feeding problems therefrom, I would hope to be equipped with a very sharp bayonet if my personal arms were one of these conversions and, say, one of the folding trigger Italain revolvers when a horde of hashish-intoxicated, homocidal dervishes came whirling my way!SW
Gun_Nut
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 9:15:06 PM
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Thanks Doc, that's a real good history lesson. I'll print it out and save it with my rifle.
JPS
Posted - 08/09/2004 : 8:31:15 PM
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Yo Gun_Nut & Company,
To add to the information provided by DocAv, between 1915 and 1916, the Italians sent 400,000 10.4x47mmR Model 1870/87 Vetterli-Vitali repeating rifles to Russia. The Russians were woefully short of rifles throughout the entire war. The Vetterli-Vitali's were issued to regular army units serving in the front line trenches on the Eastern Front as well as to reserve infantry formations.
In 1890, a 10.4x47mmR smokeless powder load (ballistite) was introduced with a jacketed bullet, however, much of the ammunition supplied to Russia by the Italians was older ammunition that was still loaded with blackpowder. All of the Russian sources I have encountered list the M70/87 as having been a blackpowder weapon. I have a photo or two of Russian soldiers armed with Vetterli-Vitalis, but they are on my other computer. I will add what ever photos I can find to this thread later.
Regarding the Italian use of the Vetterli, both the M70/87 as well as the M70/87/15, saw combat action during WWI in the hands of Italian troops, particularly following the disasterous 12th Battle of the Isonzo, better known today as the Battle of Caparetto.
The battle saw the introduction of stormtrooper tactics on the Italian Front for the first time during the war. These tactics, combined with command mistakes made by one of the Italian subordinate generals commanding elements of Italian 2nd Army, lead to one of the greatest disasters of the war.
The Austro-Hungarian 14th Army, stiffened with the addition of seven crack divisions of German troops, completely took the Italians by surpise with a lighting four hour barrage of HE, smoke and gas, followed by swarms of sturmtruppen. The Italian Isonzo Front crumbled as the 2nd Army disintergrated. The Italian 3rd and 4th Armies managed to withdraw in good order, however, the destruction of the 2nd Army left the Italian Alpine units cut off and surrounded. Eighteen days after the offensive began, the Italians managed to stabilize the front after a Central Powers penetration of nearly 100 miles south into Italy. What saved the Italian Army was the fact that the Central Powers offensive had out run it's supply lines.
In less than three weeks, the Italian Army had lost 40,000 killed, wounded and missing and another 275,000 men taken prisoner. They had lost tons and tons of war materials and the morale of the Italian troops was at it's lowest point of the entire war. It is against the back drop of Caparetto that one can understand why reserve troops were sent into combat armed with Vetterli rifles in an effort to help stabilize the newly established front lines.
The Vetterli's are interesting rifles with an unusual history. Hope this info adds to your understanding of the use of the Vetterli during WWI. I'll try and find those photos later.
Have a great week.
Warmest regards,
JPS
JPS
Posted - 08/09/2004 : 8:55:25 PM
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Here is one photo. I may have a few more on discs. I'll post them if I can find them.
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Gun_Nut
Posted - 08/10/2004 : 12:33:48 AM
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Thanks for the added information. I really apperciate it and I am sure others do as well. I will print yours out as well and keep them together.
Great photo too! I've been reading a book called Nations at War, written in 1917 from the American perspective. Very informative with a ton of great picture form the war. Very interesting to hear people talk before we entered the war. I also rented all the WWI and some WWII movies I could find last couple of weekends. The Lost Battalion was real good. But I digress. Thanks again for the good information.
NebrHogger
Posted - 08/10/2004 : 06:41:30 AM
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JPS,
Thank you!! Have any Russky-marked Italian Vetterlis surfaced in America? Have they Cyrillic markings? SW
Carcano
Posted - 08/10/2004 : 07:17:46 AM
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Dear DocAV, I almost might be inclined to a little bet...
Not all. Quiz: which Italian Peking-based troops used which gun *instead* of the M 91 ?
Incidentally, I remember a pic of Italian secondary or tertiary reserve troops from the late 920s or early 1930s which shows most soldiers armed with VV 1870/87/15.
JPS
Posted - 08/10/2004 : 12:57:23 PM
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Yo NebrHogger,
To date, I have not been able to locate a VV 70/87 that can be definitely confirmed as Russian. There are a number of potential reasons why. It may simply be a matter of luck, however, on the other hand, they may never have been marked. I have studied Russian WWI weapons for a long time and have confirmed the following, which may have some bearing on the likelyhood of finding a Russian marked Vetterli-Vitali. As examples.....................
1) The Russians marked imported Model 95 Winchesters in two different manners. There were 300,000 purchased during the war. All of these rifles that were actually shipped to Russia are inspection marked. This example is marked with a Cyrillic P (II) on top the receiver.
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2) The Russian Army acquired 450,000 Mle 1874/80 Gras rifles from France during WWI. I have examined many of these rifles and have in my collection, two Russian marked Gras rifles as well as inspection marked Gras bayonets. Some, but not all of the Russian marked Gras rifles I have examined are marked "Made in France". The Russian marked Mle 74 Gras bayonets were inspected at Sestroryetsk and are marked with the Sestroryetsk arrow in the mounting groove on the pommel.
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3) The Russians also purchased 105,000 Mle 1884 Kropatchek rifles from France. The majority of Mle 84 Kropatchek rifles I have examined that were imported from Spain, came from Russia and have Russian inspection marks. My example has a Russian Cyrillic P, a common Russian inspection mark, stamped on the heel of the stock. I have examined others rifles that were marked with Cyrillic Ps on the receiver flat, identical to the Gras rifles shown above. Some have also been mark with a P on the side of the stock. All of them have been import marked "Made in France".
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4) The Russians purchased 600,000 Arisakas from Japan, a mixture of Type 30, 38 and 44s. They also acquired 35,400 unissued Type 38 Arisakas from the Mexican contract in 7x57mm Mauser directly from Japan. During the war, they also acquired an additional 128,000 Type 38 rifles from Great Britain. I have examined a broad cross section of these rifles in museums in Russia, Austria, the Czech Republic, Belgium, France and Italy. They are without question, Russian issued weapons. Many of them bear WWI German and Austro-Hungarian capture marks. None of the rifles I have seen that are of Russian issue has any decernable Russian inspection marks at all? I have an Austro-Hungarian captured, reworked and reissued Type 30 Arisaka in my collection. Like those in the museums in Europe, the rifle is not marked in any way.
5) I have examined Russian issued Mle 1886/93 Lebel rifles supplied to Russia by France during the war. The French shipped 86,000 Lebels to Russia for front line use on the Eastern Front. Those that I have examined that are known to have been Russian issue, have no Russian marks what so ever.
Why the Russians marked some of the imported rifles and not others is beyond me? Perhaps there are some number of marked Arisakas floating around out there. Could be? But to date, I have not found any in years of actively looking. Nobody on the Japanese Forum that I know of has ever seen one either.
The best chance of locating a Russian issued Vetterli-Vitali would be to locate one of the rifle with the 1950s vintage import mark. I would imagine that one of these rifles would be marked "Made in Italy" in Enlgish somewhere on the barrel or receiver, just as the above rifles are marked "Made in France".
These rifles were imported into the US from Spain in the 1950s. It is well documented that Stalin shipped large numbers of obsolete rifles to the Republican forces fighting in the Spanish Civil War. There is an excellent book entitled, "Rifles for Spain" that has all of the detail. I have the info somewhere, but not here at my finger tips. Many of these rifles were the remnants of the emergency imports of 1915 and 1916, that survived WWI, the Revolution and the Russian Civil War. M70/87 Vetterli-Vertallis were among the models shipped to Spain. To date, I have not been able to locate any of these rifles. If I can find one, I will pay up substantially for it, as it is the best chance of finding a Russian issued M70/87 VV rifle.
If any of you out there have a rifle marked in this manner, I would be very interested to hear about it.
Hope this info helps.
Warmest regards,
JPS
B1acksmith
Posted - 08/11/2004 : 08:12:05 AM
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An addition to the history is that in 1912 the Ulster Volunteer Force (pro-British, anti-Ireland home rule) bought M70s and M70/87s from a dealer in Germany. The Brits confiscated most of them. Good artilcle on the Italian V's in "Man of Arms" Vol 26, #1. I got the mag then stumbled across a nice 10.35M M70/87 at a gun show the next week. It is in the gun safe next to my two Swiss Vs waiting for some TLC.
bayoned
Posted - 08/11/2004 : 12:45:25 PM
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To JPS,
What great information !!!!!! I have many of these types of rifles in my collection, and now you've got me scurrying back to the cabinet to peer closely at each one.
Thanks for all of your research and sharing it with us.
Regards, Ned
DocAV
Posted - 08/11/2004 : 11:28:08 PM
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As to the Peking fracas, the Italian Naval Infantry guarding the legation (from the ships at Tientsin) were armed with Vetterli-Ferraciu' or Vetterli-Bertoldo (Naval) Short rifles (TS); However, the Bersaglieri who came with the relief force and the occupation were armed with M91 TS.
To JPS, the "modernised" M90 10,4 Vetterli cartridge was smokeless powder with a Brass washed (not jacketed) projectile (same modernization was applied to the 10,4 Glisenti Cartridge). Sometime closer to WW I, the use of a drawn thinwalled jacket was introduced (1899 Hague Convention)
The Components supplied from the USA to Italy during WW I (maker???) were of the conventional jacketed type.
Thanks for the extra info, John.
Regards, Doc AV
Gun_Nut
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 01:43:08 AM
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Boy, am I glad I asked!!!! What a great thread, full of awesome information.
bayoned
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 11:54:58 AM
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My Italian 70/87 Vetterli-Vitali has the "Made in Italy" import stamp on the top flat of the barrel. You have to raise the rear sight leaf to see it.
I gleaned this info from my inventory list, but need to actually dig it out from the depths of my cabinet if you need any additional info on marks.
Regards, Ned
JPS
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 12:40:16 PM
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Yo Bayoned,
Excellent! When time permits, please pull the rifle out of storage and go over it with a fine toothed comb. I would be very interested in each and every mark that is present on the rifle. Some Russian marked weapons are marked on the barrel receiver group, while other are marked on the sides of the stock, the comb of the stock just ahead of the buttplate, etc. The buttplate tang is also a potential location. If it is marked, it will most likely be with the Cyrillic P, which per the photos above, looks like two capitol I's side by side and joined at the top, but not the bottom. It's possible that it might be marked in some other way, however, we'll just have to see if there is anything there at all. Great find! Thanks in advance, Ned, for your help with this.
Warmest regards,
JPS
JPS
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 12:51:13 PM
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Yo DocAv,
Thanks for clearing that up. I am hardly a cartridge expert and took my info from Jean Huon's book, where he states,
"Jacketed ball cartridge, M1890 (Cartuccia a pallotola, M90 per armi M70 e M70-87)
Mind you, I have found other mistakes in Huon's work, but did not have enough background in this particular area to challenge his information. When I read "ball", I immediately think jacketed.
Thank you for setting the record straight. Your knowledge in this area never ceases to amaze me. I always look forward to your input, even though you are an attorney! (grin........smile........lol.......LMAO) Just funnin ya Doc!
Now, with a little bit of luck, perhaps Ned can help us determine if the Ruskies marked their M70/87s. I have little doubt that this particular rifle was shipped to Spain from Russia. Interesting stuff!
Warmest regards,
JPS
bayoned
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 1:30:42 PM
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Alright, I feel the pressure, and hope I won't dissapoint !
I hope to get to this ASAP, but may not be able to get to it until the later part of next week. (it's buried DEEP, and need my wife to go shopping for a few uninterupted hours) She IS leaving town on next Thursday night, so while the cat's away.....
Please send me a reminder email if I haven't posted anything by next Friday !!!!!!!
I now have a digital camera, and (hopefully)can also post some pics as well.
Regards, Ned
NebrHogger
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 5:49:40 PM
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JPS,
Thank you VERY much for your detailed reply!! I would imagine there are a number of these around to be had as 'sleepers' if one has at least part of the Cyrillic alphabet committed to memory! I'm presently dealing for some 1936 Bulgarian 8X50R ammo in clips. It has the Cyrillic VF at the bottom and the stylized lion at the top. The guy's kind of proud of it (just becaudse I'm interested, maybe) so I'll do a little research on the pricing. Thanks again! SW
JPS
Posted - 08/13/2004 : 10:29:49 AM
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Yo Gents,
I am posting these photos on behalf of Bayoned. He has some glitch in his computer which does not permit him to post photos. I'm very appreciative of his efforts and the breakthrough in research he has brought us through his examination of the "Made in Italy" marked VV70/87 he has in his collection.
He braved the potential fall out from his Wife, waded through a closet full of weapons and shot these photos, knowing all the time, that she could appear at any moment, back from the grocery store! You deserve a medal for this, Ned!
Ned's VV70/87 is indeed one of the rifles that was shipped to Russia during WWI and then found it's way back to the US via the Spanish Civil War. It has the "Made in Italy" stamp on top of the barrel flat, underneath the rear sight. On the underside of the stock, just ahead of the front floor plate tang, the rifle is marked with a Cyrillic P (II). There is a second Cyrillic P on the underside of the forend, just behind the bottom barrel band. In addition, there is another Russian mark, which I have never seen before, on the right side of the stock, just below the bolt way. This mark consists of a Cyrillic L (looks like an A without the crossbar) inside of a circle.
I have looked for a Russian issue VV70/87 for years and was never, until now, able to confirm whether or not they were marked by the Russians. I have checked all of the Vetterli-Vitalis in my collection and none of them bear any of these marks. This is an excellent find! Thanks for sharing this with us Ned!
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Great stuff! Thanks again, Ned, for sharing this with us at great peril to both you and your collection. I'm truly stoked!!!!!
Have a great weekend.
Warmest regards,
JPS
duca
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 09:04:35 AM
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I've a reference stating that the 500 Alpini troops who participated to the Battle of Adua were already issued with the '91 rifle (I'll post the precise reference later, haven't at hand by now) this would mean 500 out of more or less 17.000 guns. Does anyone have some alternative source to cross check this info?
Regards
duca
DMala
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 4:02:06 PM
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Dear Friends, this thread is great! I evidently missed a lot by not checking this board for a while (work overload+vacation). Congratulations to JPS and Bayoned for their work.
JPS
Posted - 08/21/2004 : 5:16:53 PM
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This is one of the great benefits of the Forums. I have been trying to determine how and if these rifles were marked for a long time and Bingo! The right person happens to read the thread and we have a break through in our research and new knowledge regarding an interesting chapter in the history of the VV70/87. Great stuff.
Thanks again Ned!
Warmest regards,
JPS
BP Dave
Posted - 08/24/2004 : 09:36:38 AM
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About three years ago I bought an 1870/87 Vetterli and was puzzled and a little dismayed by the "Made in Italy" stamp over the chamber. Yesterday, prompted by this thread, I dragged it out and lo and behold, it has the "II" stamps in two places on the butt and a "III" on the underside of the forearm just below the first band. Also has the "A with no crossbar" (sorry, Cyrillic isn't my forte) in a circle on the right side. The other stock and metal markings appear to be Italian arsenal. The one I'm not sure about is a "CL"(?) in an oval on the left side of the stock by the action, but it is more worn than the "Russian" stamps and I suspect it is also Italian. So, instead of some rear echelon queen (like my other Italian Vetterli) it looks like my ugly duckling Vetterli served the Italians, then the Russians, then the Spanish Republicans. Fascinating.
bayoned
Posted - 08/26/2004 : 11:56:10 PM
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BP Dave,
The III mark you are refering to on the forend , in my opinion, is the side of the "pi" stamp, rather than the actual inspection mark.
This might imply that the stamp was not placed perfectly square on the stock when it was applied. A common cartouching phenomena
I don't believe you will find the "top inward-turning tail" on all three marks, just two that face each other.
BP Dave
Posted - 09/04/2004 : 11:42:19 AM
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Hi Ned--
I'm attaching photos of the "II" and "III" markings on my Vetterli. I don't know if they have the "top inward-turning tails" you refer to, because I'm not sure what to look for. Perhaps you can tell. I don't believe, however, that the stamps are made by the same die (with one tipped slightly). The spacing looks wrong, and the depth and wear on them suggest (to me, at least) that they were made at different times, or at the very least by people with different strengths in their hammer-arms.
--Dave
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bayoned
Posted - 09/04/2004 : 10:31:08 PM
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I see what you mean.
On your bottom-most photo, it looks like the bottom line of the three is different than the top two, that look like their tops have a serif that face each other. This is very pronounced on my rifle's fore-end mark. It may be a matter of wear, but I think that your bottom line is a side of a stamp, rather than the actual mark. Anyway, that's my theory, having seen lots of sloppy catouches on rifles and pistols.
(especially US ones)
Either way, it's cool to discover the history behind these rifles.
