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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
raul
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 09:17:14 AM
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A year or so ago I posted something about my Vetterli reworked to 22 by Beretta and included info that Beretta of Italy gave me in a letter they answered to a request of mine-As several posts were added to the topic some of the replies commented that I was lucky because they said that Beretta has adopted the policy of not answering the letters.
Maybe that changed, I dont know.



Ronin48
Posted - 09/01/2004 : 08:49:28 AM
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I've been offered a .22 Vett. in VG shape, early conversion with Vitali mag. (...) As I remember the article in Military Rifle Journal pretty well defines when they began to remove the mag. Frankly, I like them better with the mag.



War is Peace
Posted - 09/01/2004 : 5:24:47 PM
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Somewhere in my photo files, I have a pic of a .22 Vetterli conversion that retains the magazine. If it turns up, I'll post it.

Back in June, 2002, Doss posted the following:

"Raul Braudo (Argentina) was kind enough to send me a copy of the letter he received from Beretta on his Vett. 22. One part notes, "Late in the thirties, Beretta purchased four thousand of these rifles and modified them by rechambering in order to accept the caliber.22LR ammunition."

Believe that Dick, in THE CARCANO, gives the figure as 10K converted. Does anyone have any other info on these conversion, number, history of project, any used by Italian army, etc? If you have ever examined a Vett.22 bolt you know that much more was done than just rechambering.

Beretta also sent Mr Braudo a copy of the original ad for the Vett .22 which shows a cleaning rod protruding to just forward of the front of the front sight. Anyone know how these were held in the rifle? Anyone have one that could be copied?"

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/war is peace/20049117058_22 Vett ad.jpg
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By the way, here's a photo of the .22 Vetterli that Ricky Kumar has had for sale.

Photo no longer existant
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Two years ago, his asking price was $1200. If memory serves, the stock was mismatched and fairly heavily sanded. I believe he still has it. I would be very surprised if it sold.

In my opinion, a .22 Vett. conversion, in very good original condition is a quick sale at $400 or less and will remain in the seller's hands if priced at more than $700.

Scarce, yes. In demand, no.


PS: I have noticed that the distance from the forend cap to the muzzle varies. Note the difference between Ricky's Vett. and the example shown in the line drawing above and this one:

Photo no longer existant
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Carcano
Posted - 09/01/2004 : 6:45:08 PM
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Two *extremely* ridiculous prices have been quoted here, and some more realistic ones. Well, I have a rare German RG 14 revolver in .22 short with the almost-unique 2 7/8 barrel length, and will sell it for only 1595 $, so hurry up folks, it's the chance of your lifetime :).

Seriously, the Vetterli trainers are not that rare (rare as for example the WW I allievi tiratori rifle). They show up regularly.

Demand exists, but is not very high. It is difficult to give a valid price range, but anything between $ 300 and $ 500 is realistic. A specialized collector who wants exactly this one and is driven by desire, will of course pay more.



B1acksmith
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 08:02:21 AM
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I always learn something from these forums. Did not know that the VVs were converted to .22. I like to have .22 copies of my big guns just for kicks and will keep my eye out for one now that I know they exist. Ricks Gun Room is still trying to sell that one for $1495. I'm not tempted. I will keep looking for one in the $300-500 range.



DMala
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 2:11:49 PM
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I also would consider a general resale value of $400-600 for samples in original condition (I personally prefer a sample in original condition, even if somewhat damaged, to one recently refinished).



Ronin48
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 2:21:06 PM
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Current asking price of the .22 in question is $900. This most likely based on my WAG of a $1K value. I emailed the owner this thread, since I have a 42 model w/o Vitli mag I guess I'll pass, even if price drops.

Bought it and a Cav carbine Vett with b'net at a FL show about ten years ago for around $325. Two-three years ago gambled on an "Italian .22 rifle" in Gun List for $165. Turned out to be an early .22 Vett w/ mag, w/0 rear sight. Traded that to a friend in Canada for a Vett carbine I did not have.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Ronin48
Posted - 10/27/2004 : 10:19:01 AM
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Picked up .22 conversion of the 70/87 Vetterli, SN 880, 1934 with the Vitali mag. at the Tulsa show. This is the lowest SN reported. To date we have four dated 1934 (880-1601), two from 1937 (C5897-C5978), one from 1942 (C9300), and two from 1944 (C10256 and C10281). Either a large number were converted in 1935-1936 or there is a gap in the serial numbers used.

If you have one in your collection or see one at a show the following is needed; (1) SN, (2) date of 'manufacture' and (30 does it have the Vitali magazine?

There was a seven page article on these in a 2002 Military Rifle Journal. Copies can be had for $3.00 and a large, two-stamp SASE. "Vett.22 Article, 331 Union Hill Church Rd., Falkville, AL 35622."



Ronin48
Posted - 10/27/2004 : 9:34:39 PM
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Just compaired the 1934 and 'late one, minor difference in rear sight, stock and HG on early rifle longer than on later one.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Vetterli .22 File -Your help needed

Ronin48
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 3:19:20 PM
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The following Vetterlis converted by Beretta to single-shot .22 cal carbines have been observed/reported. Additional data are needed.

These are listed by:
(1) manuf. date, (2) serial number, and (3) with, without the Vitali mag.

1934 XII, 880, yes. 1934 XII, 1168, yes. 1934 XII, 1415, yes
1934 XII, 1601, no. 1937 ???, C5897, no. 1937 XV, 5798, no
1942 XX, C9300, no. 1944, C10.256, no. 1944, C10281, no

Many were sold to shooting clubs according to a letter from Beretta to one owner, R. J. Braudo. Is there any record that after Italy entered WW II the carbines were used by the Italian army for training purposes?



DMala
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 1:45:32 PM
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No, no evidence, as supported also by the lack of military acceptance stamps on the samples known so far.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Vetterli-Beretta .22 cal. Conversion - Another

Ronin48
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 7:09:04 PM
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Few years back there was a 3-4 page article in the Military Rifle Journal (and AMICI?) on the Vetterli longs and carbines that Beretta converted to .22 cal single-shots in the 1930s. Part of the article was a table with data: dates, SNs, mag treatment, etc., on those observed/reported.

At the SOS I examined another: Top flat - "Beretta Gardone," bolt-side flat - "1938," 'Left" flat "C7281," Stock line 'left side' "Brevetto 1934" (the '4' was hard to see.) The little rifle was incomplete, viewed from the bottom the bolt showed through the mag. well, but a hole forward of the well suggested this was one of the "early" conversions that retained the Vitali mag as a non-functional item. (Stock had a crack, had been lightly cleaned and price was $399. Ron A., would have called you, but did not have your number.)


For the record, I only saw one Carcano at the show, a 42 Gardone cav. carbine. I did not get the number as I supplied #s, etc to Dick Hobbs during his research and continued the data collection following publication, he was not interested. After a notebook full of Models, dates, makers and SNs that no one seemed to want I either sent the book to someone or "filed 13ed". Don't remember (A memory is a terrible thing to loose).

As an afterthought, did see several overpriced Vetts, 70/8715s, $200+-$300+ range.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
PICS: Italian Vetterli .22 Trainer

ncsammy
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 5:39:59 PM
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I recently picked up this interesting single shot .22 trainer made from a reworked 19th century Italian Vetterli action. The receiver markings indicate that it was made by Beretta in 1943 or 1944 (as shown in my pic’s, both dates are stamped on the barrel). It also appears to have a patent date of 1934. The serial number 172 appears in numerous places, including the top and bottom of the barrel and the bottom of the receiver, the bolt, extractor, stock, handguard, upper barrel band, lower band retaining spring, buttplate, and the metal plate covering the original Vetterli magazine well. Does anyone have any information on this rifle as far as when its production started and ended and whether or not it was actually used as a trainer? Thanks in advance.

Sam

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/ncsammy/2006417172449_vetterli22mopics3 001.jpg
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Ronin48
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 8:59:18 PM
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I've "researched" these for several years and published a four-page article on th3 Vett. .22s in the Military Rifle Journal. There are two variations, an 'early' with the Vitali mag still attached and a 'late' with a plate covering the mag opening. The stocks on the two are slightly different. Send $2.00 and legal size SASE for copy.
Doss White, P.O. Box 6, Eva, AL 35621 [email protected].



ncsammy
Posted - 04/19/2006 : 12:29:48 AM
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Thanks Doss. I'll send the payment and SASE to you ASAP.
Sam



DMala
Posted - 04/19/2006 : 11:19:56 AM
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Great find, thanks for sharing the information with us. By the way, how do you remove the bolt from the receiver?

The discordant dates may indicate that the barrel was proofed at a different time that when the finished piece was dated, but I think it is quite possible that in the turmoil of the Sept. 1943 armistice, and subsequent German occupation of the Beretta factory, the "Banco Prova" (a separate gun proofing organization) did not manage to get new stamps, and the one from the previous year was still used in early 1944. In fact of the four 1944 records I have, yours is the earliest.
Note that some of these .22 carbines use the Vetterli TS triggerguard, without the finger rest. Yours has the more typical long rifle triggerguard with finger rest.



DMala
Posted - 04/19/2006 : 11:21:24 AM
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I missed one of your questions: production started around 1934 and ended in 1945.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Continuation posting with one pic

ncsammy
Posted - 04/19/2006 : 1:34:08 PM
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Thanks for the info DMala. The bolt comes out when the pin towards the top back of the receiver is drifted out to the left, as shown in the pic below.

Sam

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/ncsammy/2006419133345_ber22boltout 001a.jpg
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