Gunboards Forums banner

1 - 2 of 2 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,327 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
US CAL 30 Type 99
Topic:




Topic author: mrc2
Subject: US CAL 30 Type 99
Posted on: 05/06/2006 5:38:15 PM
Message:
I am looking at a Type 99 with US CAL 30 on the left side of the receiver. It has the notched receiver and the lengthening of the magazine box and ground mum. It appears to have the original Japanese finish and not the phosphate refinishing. I have seen only one other US CAL 30 Type 99 and it had the original finish too. Were all these actually phospate refinished or only refinished if needed. What is the going rate for one in average condition. Thanks

Replies:

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 05/07/2006 12:38:24 PM
Message:
I've seen one without parkerized finish. Years ago fellow I knew bought a box of parts, "Korean Conversion" receiver in bunch, about 50% of added (parkerized) finish left over blue, believe it was green, but have never seen anotheer green finish. Possible rifles were in several stages of completion when orders came to drop project. Could explain lack of finish.

Be advised a**-hole in Nashville, TN area has been faking these, does an excellent job. Discussed this with Odie, machineing 'expert', how to tell real from a**-hole's work, his comment probably several machinest working on project at same time so everyone did things a little differently. Bottom line, you can't tell. Some question on whether the "U S Cal 30" should have periods (.) after the U and S, etc. Don't know. Sold one recently for $400. Have seen them go as high as $950, average is around $600. Hope this helps.

Reply author: mrc2
Replied on: 05/09/2006 5:38:11 PM
Message:
It is a last ditch Type 99. There are no periods in US CAL 30. There a few little specks of white paint on the stock, probably because the original owner thought the gun had no value and didn't move it when he was painting. I have seen paint specks on several Japanese rifles over the years. Thanks for your help.

Reply author: mrkimball
Replied on: 05/09/2006 8:06:52 PM
Message:
I saw one like that in Minnesota.. I didn't even ask the price, primarily due to the dealer the seller was hanging out with, and the fact that there are a fair number of fakes out there...

Reply author: JWMWITZ
Replied on: 05/09/2006 8:58:29 PM
Message:
I know there are fakes out there, and actually wouldn't mind owning one if just to be able to fire relatively inexpensice .30 ammo though it. Are there major sight adjustments that would have to be made to fire a Type 99 that was rechambered for the 30/06 round? Or does it end up becoming a point, shoot and hope situation?

John in Charlotte, NC

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 05/09/2006 9:44:09 PM
Message:
John,
come over sometime and we can shoot mine. I also have a barreled receiver marked "U.S. CAL. 30", that has been reblued; one could make a shooter from it. I have not tried shooting either but you raise good guestions about POI.

By the way, my email still won't go thru to your aol address. Tried to mail you about an A3 last week and it came back.

Reply author: Hawkins
Replied on: 05/10/2006 06:27:37 AM
Message:
I doubt if any "last ditch" rifles were modified by the USA for
issue.
Good luck!

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 05/10/2006 08:58:56 AM
Message:
Hawkins,
Why? Have you information or ?

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 05/10/2006 12:40:54 PM
Message:
Hawkins, Sorry, my friend, but you are in error. One of the two manual issued with the rifles, 2,000 printed, shows the stock types and everything from the long rifle to the Substitute Type 99 (last ditch) were converted. I missed a long a few years back because someone misidentified the seller as the faker, Another one I kick myself in the backside thinking about. If anyone is interested in a reprint of the two manuals issued with the rifle along with the original blueprints for the conversion email me, [email protected]

Manual notes Japanese ammo belt, pouches, frog and bayonet issued with the rifle. Another spike in the coffin that the scabbards with the canvass frog were for the "U. S. Type 99, Japanese Cal. .30" (correct name, some commas missing) Some of the conversions were issued to the Japanese Self Defense Froce (JSDF)and while there is no proof other than that a number of names on these scabbards were Japanese and not Korean, they were more than likely issued for the JSDF. Have couple of extra scabbards in average to average minus condition. If interested email me. (DO NOT USE THE [email protected] ADDRESS)

Reply author: mike radford
Replied on: 05/10/2006 4:37:02 PM
Message:
I just spotted one of these guns today. I knew I had read something here about this on the board. It was a late war gun with barrel bolt handle. It had 2 non-original screws, the rear barrel band and front trigger guard. The rear peep sight had the top of peep removed and it was changed to a groove. Is it a fake, or should I go get it for $150? Thanks

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 05/10/2006 4:52:17 PM
Message:
At $150 it doesn't matter if it is a fake or not, get it, at worst you will have a .30-06 shooter. Check the bore, make sure it is good, then buy it.

Can't tell without some pictures, the things you mention are irrevelant to authenticity.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 05/10/2006 5:40:06 PM
Message:
Make sure it has "US cal 30" on the side, a notch on the top of the receiver and an elongated magazaine box. This does not mean it is not a fake, but without these it more than likely is.

Reply author: mike radford
Replied on: 05/10/2006 9:34:16 PM
Message:
Thanks 03 and El, I will go take another look. Doubt shop will let me take pics and they may become suspecious it is priced too cheap. bet I can get it for $125 out the door. It looked a bit rough and the bore was not chrome lined and Iffy. I will check it again and the mag.. Where is the notch on the top of the receiver? I bet it was not there or I would have noticed. They had a nice type 38 rifle that distracted me. I probably paid too much. It is Kokura, all matching, beautiful bore and finish about 95%. I did not notice the crack in the stock behind the rear receiver screw till I approached the owner with an offer. I wanted it for some reason so I wacked off another $25. He checked his records and took it. Mum is gone, but it is pretty. Thanks

Reply author: Hawkins
Replied on: 05/11/2006 06:39:15 AM
Message:
It was my impression that these rifles were modified under the supervision of the US Army. It is also my impression that the "last ditch" rifles were of cast metal and unsafe to shoot. If so it is amazing that that these latter rifles were authorized to be converted for issue to an friendly nation.
Good luck!

Reply author: BradB
Replied on: 05/11/2006 12:24:51 PM
Message:
Hawkins; you are in error on both metal composition and overall functionality.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 05/11/2006 1:32:19 PM
Message:
Hawkins, "Last Ditch" rifles were just 'simplified T-99' rifles. No country issues unsafe rifles to their troops. The object is to kill the other fellow not be killed by your own rifle.

Rifles you are thinking of are the trainers with cast iron receivers, these DO NOT SHOOT! An EXCELLENT investment is the 'bible' on Japanese rifles, Fred Honeycutt's MILITARY RIFLES OF JAPAN, it's one of the few bargins in this world at $42 post paid.

On notch, its on top of receiver, in front. If you think of the curved part of the receiver below the "T 99" or in case of a late rifle, below the mum/where mum once was, the receiver curves around in a smooth curve. The notch is centered in this area or slightly left of center, you can't miss it.

Reply author: Hawkins
Replied on: 05/11/2006 3:08:16 PM
Message:
My information came from P.O.Ackley Handbook for shooters & reloaders vol II. These were not trainers. Perhaps there are more than one type of "last ditch".
Learn somthing every day.
Good luck!

Reply author: BradB
Replied on: 05/11/2006 3:32:41 PM
Message:
Nobody will dispute P.O. Ackley's contribution to shooting, but even the best of them sometimes do shoddy research. There are several members of this board, including Eloldehombre1, Fred Honeycutt and Mag who have decades of hands-on firing experience as well as publication of their own references that deal specifically with Japanese military rifles. If Mr Ackley were still alive, he would be qoting them. We don't mean to be snippy; we fight this incorrect assumption non-stop.

Reply author: mike radford
Replied on: 05/12/2006 03:04:19 AM
Message:
Back on topic, I went back and got the "US CAL 30" type 99. It is a bit ugly, but interesting. There are no periods anywere in the receiver markings. It has a mate, dull, ?parkerized or possibly blue finish. The rear barrel band and the front 2 receiver screws are replaced. They are especially ugly and I hope to replace them. Who is a good source?

Stock is 2 piece. Butt plate is wooden. It has a large barrel lug. Stock has an "L" about 3 inches from the butt plate on the bottom. It has a US WW1--early WW2 US looking leather sling. Receiver is Nogaya. Safety is welded late type. Rear sight was simple peep type but top of peep is gone and now it is a groove, which is not simple cut but 2 thicknesses, being larger in front. Receiver is notched in rear. Mag follower and mag well is elongated when compared to another late war type 99. Serial is prefixed with a U inside a circle?? I think? 81070 then Nogoya and a three leaf clover looking symbol. Bore cleaned up pretty decent. No chrome lining and bolt face is not chrome. Bolt is L75 numbered with barrel type handle. Extractor is slightly different on the face of the bolt compared to another late type 99 I have. Number is mismatched. Mag follower is about a mm thicker on the front side than the original type 99 and seems like it is stamped steel. The magazine length is about 82.3 mm vs 78 mm on my original type 99.

Thanks to Eloldehombre and 03man for help on this rifle. You guys are great. Sorry I am picture challanged (unable to figure out how to post them so far). I gotta get Fred's book.

Reply author: Hawkins
Replied on: 05/12/2006 06:00:57 AM
Message:
There is somthing else that I wonder about with these rifles;How did they compensate for the oversize chamber when converting to 30/06?. Years ago there were several articles in the "Rifleman" stating that this wa not a safe practice.
Thanks!

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 05/12/2006 06:42:13 AM
Message:
The rear of the chamber is larger than the rear of the '06 cartridge. So it 'buldges' when fired, in combat they were not worried about reloading. Not sure these were called "unsafe", more of an anomaly with reloading. Suppose you could just neck resize and reuse case. Haven't reloaded in years, forgot what little I ever knew so this is just a speculation, may be unsafe, so "Don't try this at home."

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 05/12/2006 07:15:21 AM
Message:
Id like to see some test on a couple of them to see how they shoot.How did they convert the barrels for the different bores?did they just let the smaller projectile rattle down the barrel?a lot of the sporting conversions seem to be done that way also,just allowed to barely fit,Making marginal contact.

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 05/12/2006 07:53:54 AM
Message:
Dave,
a .308 in a .311 bore doesn't rattle, it comes out pretty good, good enough to kill NK anyway.

I am bringing one to the shootout, so is my buddy who is coming with me. We can check it out.
Anyone have a chrono?

Hawkins,
the .30-06 in a T99 is better supported or surrounded by the chamber than in the 03 springfield, in the springfield fully 1/10" of the case head has no support at all. As much as I have enjoyed the AR over the years, sometimes they are just super cautious, or as said before sometimes just wrong.

Mike Radford,
Your 30 cal sounds ok to me. The manufacturer sounds like the Howa factory under Nagoya supervision, though the c in a circle doesn't make sense. Can you post some pictures. I also sell parts, so if you want, email me for a list.

I would have the headspace checked with .30-06 gauges, maybe your shop will check it for you.
I have owned three different ones, and all checked out ok, hope yours does too.

Put up those pictures.

Reply author: mike radford
Replied on: 05/12/2006 3:20:56 PM
Message:
Thanks to 03man and eloldehombre1, I have kinda bonded with the old rifle. It is a nice piece of history, even if a fake. I doubt a faker would include the machining to make the rear sight as well as this one. The sling is near certain US and quite old. The bore is surely serviceable.

I thought the 7.7 liked 0.312 bullets. Are the rifles better with 0.311? A person could pull Russian .311 bullets and use them. I have a lot of cheap 7.62X54r ammo, I could use these bullets. I bet they would do well. I think 303 British bullets are also 0.312?? Using 0.308 in russian rifles has not worked well for me. It is safe and works, but not accurate.

While I was buying this rifle a fellow asked is that a Jap rifle. He said a lot of Japanese were observed by GI's with the safety from there rifles imbedded in their foreheads. I wanted to tell him that the action was one of the strongest ever but I just kept quiet. Lots of misinformed out there. As said earlier, that is good for those who like these and keeps prices down. I like US 1911 pistols, but they now are just too expensive. I will get a few Japanese rifles before they are just nutty in price. That is likely after Clint Eastwood's new movies come out.

I know these rifles can be very accurate. My 7.7 sniper has shot MOA with Norma match ammo. It averaged less than 2 MOA.

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 05/12/2006 3:42:55 PM
Message:
Mike,
loading with .311 bullets would be great for the converted rifle.

I have been wanting to rechamber an enfield for the russian cartridge, but pulling the bullets for the Arisaka 06 is an even better use. Watch the neck thickness, you may need to ream them a little, maybe not? whatdie will you use to seat/crimp the bullets?

Reply author: ncmtnman
Replied on: 05/12/2006 10:03:18 PM
Message:
If you get tired of having that '06 pounding your shoulder,do what I did and increase your accuracy and make it easier on your pocketbook---add a chamber insert and shoot 7.62X39 now I can hit a pie plate at 100 yds offhand with these old 74 year old eyes and original sites. The insert can be removed later if you want to and it doesn't hurt the rifle.>>Don

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 05/13/2006 10:07:47 AM
Message:
WHOW, 7.62x39 insert for a 30-06 chamber? Did I understand you correctly? If so where can you buy one? I have a 7.7 Arisaka converted to .30-06 and have a .308 chamber insert. Was going to 'lock-tite' he insert into the chamber and drag to the shoot, but if I can get a 7.62 insert will shelve my plans.

Did I understand you correctly and would greatly apprecdiate info. on where to purchase the inserts. Will buy three, one for Eloldehombre1 and each of my worthless sons that don't appreciate the ancient Arisaka, think an SKS/AK is/are the cat's meow, show them the 99 can 'eat' many different cartridges including the heathen Russian-Chinese ammo.

Reply author: ncmtnman
Replied on: 05/13/2006 12:08:07 PM
Message:
Here's the place for the inserts, WWW.mcace.com/ it's MCA sports, phone # 907-2484913 if that doesn't work, try [email protected] these inserts come with a choice of two Loctite adhesives depending on whether you want to remove it or not. Be very careful when you put the Loctite on and don't put too much or it will creep into the actual chamber of the insert. I'm very pleased with mine after I finally got it formed to the chamber. I forgot to say that if all the above doesn't work, just go to "search" and type in --chamber adapters and look for MCA sports. hope this helps. >>Don

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 05/13/2006 12:27:11 PM
Message:
There are a couple posts on castle-thunder about using russian 7.62x54 bullets to reload 7.7 (as well as lots of cool info on loading the 7.7 and 6.5)...

Reply author: mag
Replied on: 05/13/2006 4:38:53 PM
Message:
I have 1 US-30 , 2 civilian 30/06 conversions and 1 300 Savage conversion. With all the 30/06 rifles I loose about 150 to 200 fps with .308 bullets compaired to .312. At 100 yards [ at 50 yards it is not much different ] the group averages will open up about 2x with .308 compaired to .312. The bore size of the rifle will have alot to do with what bullet it likes, as most are .313+ they will shoot a .312 flatbase better. The only rifle that really shows no accuracy change between .308 and .312 is the 300 savage that I got from Doss. But it also has a real tight bore , .299 land .311 groove. The pulled Russian bullets have 2x the group average when used with the same load as a good US made .312 bullet. The case head swell with 30/06 cases has not been a problem for me, after the first firing to swell them I just neck size, and have up to 12 reloads on many so far will no problems. Of all the military rifles that I have test shot, the T-99's are the most difficult to find a good load for. With a K-98 I can slug the bore, load up just 3 loads and one of those loads will be it's best. With a T-99 it goes up to 20 loads or so. I can shot 20 different T-99's and each one will do better with different combination. mag

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 05/13/2006 9:14:16 PM
Message:
I like my .300 savage conversions...my best deer rifle (a series 2 in 300) says there a couple dozen michigan whitetails that could argue the point as to accuracy,but how it would hold out past 125 or so,is a toss up..but at less its fast,handy and shoots to point of aim(minute of DEAD)...Mag, have you ever fired any of the accelerator or small bore sabotted 30-06 thru one of them? I wondered how they did thru a chrono.if the sabot dug in and made the tight bore or if they lost speed and stability...

Reply author: mag
Replied on: 05/14/2006 12:42:25 AM
Message:
I have shot the 308 and 30/06 accellerators in regular 308 and 30/06 rifles and all they did was turn 1 inch rifles into 4 inch rifles. I have never tried them in a T-99 but would think the chrome bore would not get a good grip on them . I have tried manu real light bullets in 1 in 7 to 1 in 10 twist military rifles and all of them shoot worse as the velocity goes up. At low vel the light bullets do great. On my 300 Savage conversion, I did not say it did not shoot well. I said it shoots the same with .308 or .312 bullets, no differance in accuracy in that rifle. It shoots either, depending on the load , into 2 to 3 inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards. I would have no problem hunting with it, other than it is about 15 rifles down on my list of rifles to hutn with at the moment. I try and use a different and odd rifle everytime. mag

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 05/14/2006 4:49:05 PM
Message:
Mag, If you had a choice with a converted 99 to .30-06, would you stay .30-06 or use a .308 insert?

Reply author: mag
Replied on: 05/14/2006 5:57:50 PM
Message:
Since I only shoot handloads and can make the round do whatever velocity I would like, I would just leave it 30/06. I do load mine as 31/06 for the T-99's. The insert would seem to me to be alot of trouble for no gain, other than if all you had was .308 ammo. Since T-99's chambers vary in size, to do it right you would really need to have one made from a fired case from only the rifle that you were going to use it in. Also you would increase the freebore by alot, which hurts accuracy, and T-99's have alot as it is. mag

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 05/15/2006 07:40:43 AM
Message:
Mag,
thanks for posting the detailed data.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 05/15/2006 10:30:39 AM
Message:
The last time I pulled a trigger (with a round in the chamber) was late Cretaceous. May do so this year, have an excellent 38 carbine sporter I bought for $40 few years back and a long rifle (99) sporter I built (Roy Boone built) out of a barreled receiver Bobby gave me. Want to shoot these as well as the matchlock.

Every year I say I'm not going to bother going to the shoot (Ruth says "Yes, you are."), but as time gets closer I start getting excited. Thanks Mag for the advice. P.S. Neurologist says I can continue with the 38 IQ I was born with and meds. should stop the brain deterioration I have undergone, just have to live with short term memory! What state is the shootout in?

Gunboards : http://old.gunboards.com/
© 2000-2006 Gunboards

Close Window
 

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
3,425 Posts
Hey fellows :

Regarding the old issue of US converted Arisakas to 30.06, it was the word among savvy collectors in the mid-1980s that "late" 99s were prefeered for conversion as they no longer had chrome lined barrels, those were easier on the chamber reamers.
Based on the US manual for 99 rifles of that era the converted rifles could be long or short rifle length, early to last ditch. Last month took the cup cake for me while at the Phoenix show, the fellow next door to Odie's tables pulled out from a case under the table a 99 Kokura double circle, ser. # 12XX ( sorry for that didn't write it down ), what took my breath away was the receiver, no dust cover grooves which is a rarity for Kokura Arsenal, and on the left front of the receiver it was stamped US CAL 30 !!!!!
talk about a "last ditch", it don't get any later than that Vern !.
I managed to snag one up 10 years ago, it was a typical LD 10th series that had been sporterized, it took another 10th to get all the wood and bands to restore mine. At the time a CAL 30 was going for 350 to 450, so the 165.00 was a decent price for an uncommon item.
Vicasoto
 
1 - 2 of 2 Posts
Top