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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
First off I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to post this but I have an unusual rifle, and it's covered in Military Mausers of the World, so I figure it's worth a shot.

I have a Mauser-Vergueiro in 7mm mauser with no crest on the receiver. I know that Brazil received some, called the 1907 and they were used for the police, but this rifle has no Brazilian markings. It does have the commercial proof marks on the left side of the receiver.

Wondering if anyone had any idea what this rifle would have been used for. It's a relatively high serial number so I can't imagine it being a salesman piece, but I'm not sure.

Thanks in advance
 

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I didn’t see a picture of the top of the receiver. I’d be curious to see if there is a “scallop” that is present when the original rifle chambered in 6.5x58 was converted to 8mm. If this rifle went from 6.5x58 to 7mm directly, or it really did start life as a 7mm, then I don’t think the scallop would have been necessary as 7mm is a shorter cartridge than 6.5x58, if I’m not mistaken.
 

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First off I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to post this but I have an unusual rifle, and it's covered in Military Mausers of the World, so I figure it's worth a shot.
I have a Mauser-Vergueiro in 7mm mauser with no crest on the receiver. I know that Brazil received some, called the 1907 and they were used for the police, but this rifle has no Brazilian markings. It does have the commercial proof marks on the left side of the receiver.
...
You're right, she's a Vergueiro in 7 mm, same model as the ones made for Brazil. She might be a 'off the shelf' rifle, assembled probably from left-over parts, and sold on the civilian market. A rifle like her is mentioned in the 1911 ALFA catalogue.

The last one of this type was shown 3 years ago here in the forum --> a pretty rare bird!
HELP with i.d. of Mauser

Chris
 

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So here is what I’m failing to understand. The 04 Vergueiro in 6.5x58 did not have a scallop cut, and why would it as Mauser designed the action to fit that cartridge. When these were converted to 8mm, I thought an arsenal would have rebarreled these and added the scallop at same time. But it seems these cuts were done at the factory? And I still believe the 7mm to be shorter than the 6.5x58.
As a side note, the only other Mauser I know of with the scallop would be the early Turks. Any others?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Other mausers to have the scallop cuts are usually conversions like you are thinking. I know of a few south american conversion rifles to a nato cartridge or 30-06 that had the scallop added.

I'm not sure why the scallop was added on the 7mm and 8mm conversion Vergueiro's, as 7x57 seems to be shorter than 6.5x58.
 

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So here is what I’m failing to understand. The 04 Vergueiro in 6.5x58 did not have a scallop cut, and why would it as Mauser designed the action to fit that cartridge. When these were converted to 8mm, I thought an arsenal would have rebarreled these and added the scallop at same time. But it seems these cuts were done at the factory? And I still believe the 7mm to be shorter than the 6.5x58.
As a side note, the only other Mauser I know of with the scallop would be the early Turks. Any others?
I would be curious to read your source that Mauser designed the action? My understanding was that the finalized action design was created by the Portuguese, hence its unique features compared to other Mannlicher derivations?

Mauser did prototype several rifles for the Portuguese trials, including several Mauser rifles in 6.5x58, but I have not read that Mauser did the design work.

The post WWI spec for 8x57 gave an over all length of 80.6mm, while the post WWI spec for the 6.5 "S" Portugal round was 82.5mm.

However, I have a pre WWI 6.5x58 cartridge (RN) that measures 75.5mm.
 

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FAL-Grunt- yes, my understanding was that Portugal came to Mauser with a few of their own ideas. However, reference Mauser Military Rifles of the World (5th Edition), RWD Ball, page 300, "Portuguese Model 1904 Mauser-Vergueiro Rifle". Ball calls the design Portuguese "in conjunction" with DWM.

And that got me started looking at some original examples (in 6.5x58) in Balls and Olson's books, as well as on this forum.. they all have the scallop. So again, I stand corrected (as to the scallop not being on the standard 6.5x58 vs. 7mm versions and 8mm conversions). Now I have a new theory (and would love to have more substantial evidence one way or another):

Portugal had their requirements for the Vergueiro, chiefly the split rear bridge. I would assume the differences in bolt design would also be at the requirements of the Portuguese (why else would Mauser change their design?). But ultimately, I'm guessing the 1904 is just a 98 action (i.e. a Mauser design) modified to to fit the Portuguese requirements. What I mean by that is if one were to compare a 98 action of similar time frame, the dimensions of the action would be the same. DWM made a cut into the rear bridge to create the split. There was not a "special" Vergueiro action designed (by Portugal or Mauser), only modifications to a standard action to make it a Vergueiro.

As for the scallop... Olson lists the 6.5x58 OAL as 3.26" (82.80 mm). Wikipedia says 3.209" (81.50 mm). As for the 8mm which we know the 98 action could accommodate, I can find multiple cartridge OAL's, ranging from 80.50 to 82.00 mm. I find it hard to believe that the a standard 98 action could not handle a cartridge 0.80mm longer than the 8mm Mauser, but if the 98 action was not designed to fit anything longer than a 82.00mm cartridge, there would need to be an elongation of at least 0.80mm, right?

If anyone has a Vergueiro, it would be interesting (to me, anyway) to load up a 6.5x58 cartridge at 82.80mm (or at any known length, really), place on a stripper clip, and then measure the clearance from bullet tip to receiver.
 

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FAL-Grunt- yes, my understanding was that Portugal came to Mauser with a few of their own ideas. However, reference Mauser Military Rifles of the World (5th Edition), RWD Ball, page 300, "Portuguese Model 1904 Mauser-Vergueiro Rifle". Ball calls the design Portuguese "in conjunction" with DWM.

And that got me started looking at some original examples (in 6.5x58) in Balls and Olson's books, as well as on this forum.. they all have the scallop. So again, I stand corrected (as to the scallop not being on the standard 6.5x58 vs. 7mm versions and 8mm conversions). Now I have a new theory (and would love to have more substantial evidence one way or another):

Portugal had their requirements for the Vergueiro, chiefly the split rear bridge. I would assume the differences in bolt design would also be at the requirements of the Portuguese (why else would Mauser change their design?). But ultimately, I'm guessing the 1904 is just a 98 action (i.e. a Mauser design) modified to to fit the Portuguese requirements. What I mean by that is if one were to compare a 98 action of similar time frame, the dimensions of the action would be the same. DWM made a cut into the rear bridge to create the split. There was not a "special" Vergueiro action designed (by Portugal or Mauser), only modifications to a standard action to make it a Vergueiro.

As for the scallop... Olson lists the 6.5x58 OAL as 3.26" (82.80 mm). Wikipedia says 3.209" (81.50 mm). As for the 8mm which we know the 98 action could accommodate, I can find multiple cartridge OAL's, ranging from 80.50 to 82.00 mm. I find it hard to believe that the a standard 98 action could not handle a cartridge 0.80mm longer than the 8mm Mauser, but if the 98 action was not designed to fit anything longer than a 82.00mm cartridge, there would need to be an elongation of at least 0.80mm, right?

If anyone has a Vergueiro, it would be interesting (to me, anyway) to load up a 6.5x58 cartridge at 82.80mm (or at any known length, really), place on a stripper clip, and then measure the clearance from bullet tip to receiver.
A few clarification points. The Vergueiro is not a Mauser. It has no Mauser traits other than the magazine box which is the patented Mauser staggered magazine box. The Vergueiro is related to the Mannlicher design family. The trials consisted of Mannlicher Schonauer (Steyr), Mannlicher Vergueiro, and several Mauser 98's.

I think the confusion, historically, arises from the Portuguese who refer to the rifles as Espingarda Mauser, and contracted with DWM to produce 100,000 "sistema Mauser-Verguerio". I think this confusion stems from the fact that Mauser produced the trials rifles. However, they are not mechanically a Mauser design. They may be a Mauser improvement, but I have not been able to obtain any primary or secondary sources to support this theory.

Both of the trials Vergueiro have the scallop in the front ring, however neither of the Mauser trials rifles do. The Mauser Trials rifles were a standard length Mauser 98, not an intermediate, and would not need the scallop cut as we see many reworked Turk 1903's.
 

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I’m going to have to go back and do some reading- I thought this model was a modified Mauser... modified to look like something other than a Mauser, but a Mauser nonetheless.

It probably seems like I’m obsessed with the scallop detail, but I think that is very indicative of taking an existing product and modifying it to suit another need.

From an engineering standpoint, it’s not desirable (though not catastrophically detrimental to the receiver strength).

From a manufacturing standpoint, it is not desirable as it requires an extra operation.

From a commercial standpoint, it’s extra time (machining) and wasted material.
 

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I’m going to have to go back and do some reading- I thought this model was a modified Mauser... modified to look like something other than a Mauser, but a Mauser nonetheless.
It probably seems like I’m obsessed with the scallop detail, but I think that is very indicative of taking an existing product and modifying it to suit another need.
From an engineering standpoint, it’s not desirable (though not catastrophically detrimental to the receiver strength).
From a manufacturing standpoint, it is not desirable as it requires an extra operation.
From a commercial standpoint, it’s extra time (machining) and wasted material.
I'd recommend to read the information already posted here in the forum: we've already analyzed the Vergueiro in detail and did the comparison with other Mauser and Mannlicher models.

Results:
  • the Vergueiro receiver is based on a Mannlicher (or Gew. 88) type, with split receiver. That one is based on the old Mauser Gew. 71, but totally different from contemporary Mauser M93-98 designs
  • the Vergueiro bolt is a unique design. It shares the separate bolt head with Mannlicher bolts. It has problems with lost cocking pieces, which is due to a severe design bug.
  • the zig-zag magazine is Mauser design

Discussion threads:
The sticky ' Sticky Portuguese contract Vergueiro 6.5 caliber Model 1904 - Jon Speed & John Wall ', with details on bolt:
Portuguese contract Vergueiro 6.5 caliber Model 1904 -...

Receiver comparison and detailed discussion (post# 43, 52):
HELP with i.d. of Mauser

What i wrote about the Vergueiro:
Mauser-Vergueiro:
the Portugese M1904 used a Mauser-type magazine with zig-zag storage of the cartridges (like M93/95/98). This design was patented by Mauser, and could not be used by Steyr w/o patent royalties. So at least one reason, to speak of a Mauser.

Unfortunately, the Vergueiro also used some worst case design where possible:
- seperate bolt head and choking piece, which is not locked by a bolt, but with a bayonet connection: by turning bolt head and safety piece in different directions, the bolt will disassemble and the choking piece will fly away, propelled by the main spring. Try to find the choking piece in your workshop, if that happens! Try to find it in the jungle, the Portugese colonies in Angola and Mocambique - no way!
By this, the rifle made be easily de-functional by the soldier - an absolutely no-go!
(even the much-criticized Gew 88 is better regarding that issue)

- barrel without barrel steps: the barrel steps was one of the main Mauser inventions from the M1893 onwards, to have a good bedding of the barrel in the stock, independent from thermal expansion. Mr. Vergueiro ignored this, due to missing knowledge?

Advantages of the Vergueiro against Mauser design:
- the Vergueiro had a real 3rd locking lug: the bolt handle resting against the split receiver bridge. If both bolt lugs will break, this 3rd locking lug will prevent the bolt from flying in the shooter's face. The Steyr company (Mannlicher) used this technical argument in the 1890's extensively against the Mauser competitors.
As a result, Mauser introduced a 3rd locking lug with the Chile M95 (not more than a piece of sheet metal, not really effective), and finally with the M98 (below the rear receiver bridge).

As i wrote before, the Vergueiro might not be the result of advanced technical design, but of national pride - a system designed by an officer of the own army. An idea which we would assign today to 'Banana Republics'.
Why the scallop on the Portugese Vergueiros: the Portugese 6.5x58 cartridge is max. 81.5 mm long, and by that 3.5 mm longer compared to 7x57, as used by Brazil (CIP data). By that, the Brazil M1904 Vergueiro doesn't need the scallop.

Chris
 

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jm1911. that is a really interesting rifle.. in amazing condition! the metal has that lovely old blue, and probably the original sling as well. it makes my, and most other 6,5 Portuguese examples look kinda $kitty. congrats. great pics.. excellent post.
 

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I believe all the about 5,000 Brazilian 7mm rifles were made from leftovers and were of the "long" version of the Portuguese 1904 rifles.

I own a Mauser Vergueiro 1904 in the original caliber 6.5x58, with UDF marks. So it has been one of the rifles sent from Portugal to South Africa in 1915. It is still in a nice original conservation status and works fine.
However my gun is a shorter model, without bayonet lug, and a total length of 110 cm
Curiously, its barrel is 13mm longer than the resulting shortened barrel of the 1939 transformation and re-rifling to 8mm.
I know that the original 1904 rifle is longer – 1225 mm, so my model is likely the referred “carbine” model, but I have no references on this shorter model, and it is marked as "ESPINGARDA PORTUGUEZA 6,5 MOD. 1904" as well.
Does any member have references of this “carbine” model?
Your help will be much appreciated.
 
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