Gunboards Forums banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,621 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This was posted on another forum from a gentleman in Turkey. Rifle has no markings other than the number 2. It is a turnbolt not a straight pull. He thinks it may be chambered in 7.65x53, and suspects it may be a prototype. Barrel is jacketed like a M88 Commission Rifle. Any ideas?
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,505 Posts
Looks like a strange combination of a Mannlicher and a Gew 88....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
298 Posts
can you get anymore pictures from where its posted? It has been bothering me for 2 hours and cant fiqure it out need more clues!! Why I say belgian is or because of the barrel sleeve and sight but not the bolt or and lower half. Also the finger groove in the stock is unusual in alot of mannlicher designs. But can be wrong
 

·
Platinum Bullet Member and Certified Curmudgeon
Joined
·
15,506 Posts
Serial number 2 does sound like a prototype. Rifles with barrel sleeves are few and far between. It's not a Belgian M1889, a Gewehr 88, or a Danish M1889 Krag-Jorgensen carbine. The magazine is Mannlicher, the bolt is not. The bolt handle location is more like a Mauser but it is not a Mauser bolt. It is clearly military and has a bayonet lug under the barrel sleeve. The crossbolt location at the end of the finger groove looks like a Mosin-Nagant.

It makes a really good mystery rifle. With a barrel sleeve it dates from somewhere around 1888-1889.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,602 Posts
Let's analyses the photo slowly, starting from the Muzzle.

Jacket and front sight arrangement is typical M88 Commission rifle, also Belgian M89.

Rear sight is same as Turkish M87, Commission 88, belgian 89 and Early (round nose) Turkish M90 rear sights...the Long drop down side latch on the slider gives it away.

Magazine and trigger guard: Very "Mannlicher" in design, but the cross Pin at the forward end points to "NAGANT" ( Belgium) M1890 Turnbolt rifle (made in 6mm Lee Rimmed and 8x54R. (very similar to 7,62x54R Mosin cartridge.).

Bolt and receiver: Bolt handle base and cocking piece looks very "M1890 Mannlicher carbine-ish" , but "turnbolt" would make it NOT a straight Pull...(also notch in stock for bolt handle is definite that it is turnbolt.

Stock: Military, but may be "sportered" forward of Lower Band. Closer examination of stock end cap required, and forward "lug" under jacket.

Could it be an Experimental Turk rifle, knocked out by Mauser, at the time of the M90 design? The Magazine arrangement looks similar to the 1890 Italian Trials Rifle made by Mauser(?).

WE need to have better Bolt and receiver photos, and caliber determined....before making a more definite pronouncement.

What Factory or Gov't proof marks appear on barrel, rec. etc...???

Could it be an "ALFA" or AKAH Put together similar to Bannerman's assembly rifles of the early 1900s ( Krag parts, Latin Am. barrels, Springfield stocks etc)???

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.
 

·
Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
4,427 Posts
With the bayonet lug arrangement, what would fit, supposing it used a standard pattern? 71/84 pattern? It almost looks like a Danish Krag arrangement.

I throw in my sealed guess as being Central Europe, Denmark or Belgium.
 

·
Diamond Member
Joined
·
4,292 Posts
That magazine reminds me of an experimental rifle I once saw for sale that was made by Pieper in Belgium. I can't add anything else to the previous comments.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,621 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
More pics of the barrel/receiver junction with only stampings and the 12 mm boltface. It is set up to use a rimless case. The owner says a 8x57 round doesn't fit the chamber and leaves 3-4 mm sticking out. A 8mm bullet will go in the muzzle a short distance. Magazine is a near copy of the M95 Steyr and uses an en bloc clip. That boltface/extractor also reminds me of the M95 Steyr as do the guide "wings" on the bottom. Maybe it was a Steyr Turkish trial rifle in 7.65x53mm from the late 1880's. Steyr made Gew88's and had the tooling for the barrel jackets and rear sights. The rest of the bolt and cocking piece are unique. He did say it had no safety - French? The stock does have the lines of a Berthier. Rear sight is graduated to 1,500 meters. Wouldn't a Turkish trial rifle been graduated in Arabic numerals at that time?
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
105,711 Posts
Very interesting. I really wonder what it could be. I don't have any clue, but it's fun to sit back and watch.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,070 Posts
Pieper was different:



 

·
Diamond Member
Joined
·
4,292 Posts
That's not the Pieper I saw. Kris Gasior had it for sale sometime last millenium, magazine was very like the subject rifle here, but I can't remember anything about the bolt. Days before digital cameras, so I have no record of it.
 

·
Diamond Member with Oak Leaves and Swords
Joined
·
3,472 Posts
Pieper was different:



Nick,
This appears to be a System Mannlicher rifle. See von Kromar, Rifle figure # 1 for a weapon of astonishlingly similar exterior appearance. The von Kromar # 1 rifle however shows a different bolt with its handle between the receiver bridge and receiver ring. The eight lug locking system is shown in the von Kromar System Mannlicher patent drawings for Rifle # 26. Note that the lugs are at the front of the bolt in # 26, but at the rear of the bolt in your photograph. Von Mannlicher certainly did not hesitate to mix up his patented design features!
Regards.
John
 

·
Diamond Member with Oak Leaves and Swords
Joined
·
3,472 Posts
Hi Bob,
I've been working on this rifle for several weeks too. My guess is that it is a Steyr experimental rifle, with many patented Mannlicher features that can be seen sprinkled throughout the book of System Mannlicher patents written by Konrad Edler von Kromar in 1900: an A/H Model 1895 straight pull receiver with a Dutch 95 extractor converted to a turnbolt system, somewhat similar to Rifles #'s 2 and 3 in von Kromar, with its operating handle behind the receiver bridge. The receiver bridge is VERY short, requiring the use of the two small guiding "rails" we normally see on the bottom of the M.95 straight pull bolt. These "rails" fit into recesses the based of the receiver of the M.95 and provide stability for the bolt. The recesses for these 2 guide rails also exist on this rifle! Add in a M.1904 or similar (Carcano?) Mannlicher magazine and the Gewehr 88 features mentioned above, and you get something like the illustrated rifle.

Note that these patent drawings can also be seen, although on a much smaller scale, in W. H. B. Smith's old book "Mannlicher Rifles and Pistols".
Regards,
John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Hello geladen,

Mannlicher M-96 bolt fits as far as the solid head, bolt handle shape and position, firing pin assy securing system.
But it has 8 locking lug(let)s in 2 rows. not just 2 standard type lugs like this bolt. Firing pin knob is different but that is sort of immaterial.
M-90 Carbine and M-95 straight-pull bolts have the fins/rails under the bolt like this one no other feature.
If your monniker and insignia suggest German or Austrian connections please try and find an address for the STEYR-Mannlicher Museum/Collection/Library/Historian. The Office reached through the internet STEYR-Mannlicher site is said to be concerned only with current production.

Sincerely,

alikozanoglu
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Hi DocAV,

The fins/rails under the bolt body are used in straight-pull M-90 carbine and M-95 rifle.
The turn-bolt with solid head and the firing pin/spring assy securing system is used in M-96. The Bolt handle shape, too.
The butt plate doesn't match anything. Looks like made from an old piece of tin can. Almost.
The magazine is Gew-88.
The two lugs under the barrel both have a sharp grrove, the rear one of which fits a matching prong on the foreenf tip, the one near the muzzle is a bayonet stud but it also has a similar groove, which I assume is to be used with an almost full length stock.
Please believe me when I say the ONLY marks on the rifle (with the exception of rear sight calibrations) are two adjacent numerals "2" underneath the barrel/action junction, and an assenbly referans line at the same junction. Please see attchd photo.

alikozanoglu
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
253 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Hello Newfoundlander2,

The main reason I assume this is about 95% a Mannlicher make is the "under-the-bolt rails/fins" which are present on the M-90 Mannlicher carbine and M-95 Mann. rifle. Also the shape of bolt handle and the firing-pin/main-spring-assy/Cocking-knob&securing collar configuration which are found in the Mann M-96.
In and around those decades that stock/butt form was pretty common, too.
Thank you for your input. I'll look forward to other ideas.

alikozanoglu
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top