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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A local just obtained his CCW permit and asked about a Carry Gun. Knowing the fellow, I suggested he buy a revolver due to his novice status. I suggested he get a .38 Special with adjustable sights, buy a box of wadcutter target loads and a box of serious loads. That was 10 day ago.

Today the fellow stopped by with a used S&W M10 2-inch revolver he bought and he asked to "buy six rounds." I asked him why just 6 rounds and he said "for my house gun." I advised him he had just bought a used gun, had limited handgun experience and thus, he needed a box of wadcutters to function test the gun, get used to the noise and recoil and see it the sight shoot where they point. ALL to no avail! He wanted ONLY 6 rounds!

I refused to provide 6 rounds, at any price, to a person beyond ignorant. Yes, the Second Amendment ALSO applies to such Citizens.

Webley One
 

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Well, he's not entirely ignorant, is he? I mean, he listened to you on your recommendation and got that part right, yes?

knowing his novice status (apparently a serious case), could you have approached it a bit different by explaining that ammo isn't sold by piece and only by boxes? Then encouraging him (or inviting him to go with you??) to shoot at least 44 of those rounds to check his pistol? And maybe THEN saving those last 6 for the house?

if the guy trusted your opinion once, and is still wet behind the ears, seems like a decent mentoring opportunity to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
sovblocgunfan,

Thanks for the reply. I told the lad he needed a gun and several boxes of ammo to check out the gun and himself; He declined that last part to his LOSS.

Let us review many homeowner gun scenarios covered in my handgun classes: None of my students have ever shot off a gun inside a residence. Have you? Try it sometime and learn you are Instantly and TOTALLY Deaf! I instruct my students to cover their "Weak" Ear with the weak hand so after the shot inside the home they have 50% hearing. If time permits, I suggest they "Roll Down" their strong side ear onto their shoulder to shield that ear from the muzzleblast. If the ears are shielded, the homeowner can chat on the cell phone with the police. Try the other scenario and report back?

I have NO patience with any person who refuses to check out a used revolver that he intends to use for home defense. Your opinion may vary, but is the Used Gun 100% Functional Before the NEED?

Webley One
 

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Can't fix STUPID!
With a CCW no less!
Hope he gets some clear advice and education prior to packing that "house gun" outside.
Did he not have to take some form of class to obtain the CCW?

You can debate "shall not be infringed" and any restrictions or requirements to obtain at least some form of minimal firearms safety training but GEEZ ...
The idea that a gun owner must obtain some reasonable training is not that offensive to most gun owners.
I believe 2A means exactly what it says and no gun "law" is Constitutional but, as an Instructor, owner and shooter, I have to side with at least minimal training and education.
 

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In Texas we have to PASS a written test and a shooting test to get a LTC. This is after a half day of instruction . Training is essential !
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks guys for very thoughtful responses. I have been a firearms instructor for most of my life. I have had a wonderful rapport with all my handgun class students. The "want to buy 6 rounds" neighbor never attended any of my classes.

Let me digress for a bit: In 1976 I was President (for my first term) of my New Hampshire gun club. I received a phone call one evening from the Chief of the local police department regarding a SWAT team response to a "Shot Kitchen Trash Can!" WHAT? It seems a few days before a rural homeowner heard a noise just at dusk and went into her backyard with a cocked 4-inch M10 S&W.38 special to see what was the matter. She found nothing, so returned to her residence. She had shot the handgun at the range formerly, but NEVER let the hammer down on a loaded chamber. She was not comfortable with letting the hammer down, so she shot her kitchen trash can which resolved the cocked hammer situation. It was September, windows were open and neighbors heard the gun shot, called 911 and SWAT responded.

We initiated a Home Owner handgun training program at our gun club and provided gun safety inspection, safety training and range time for local residents. ONLY 2 people responded to our first Saturday class. I assume many folks were satisfied with their TV gun instruction! Our second class had 30 students including the Speaker of the House of our state legislature. She became a fast friend and always referred pending gun legislation for my review and comment.

Webley One
 

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They can afford a gun. They can afford bullets. They can't afford a few dollars for training?
Resident in the neighborhood goes out and buys a pistol. Now, a first time gun owner, asks a few questions about it. Advise him that son and I are Instructors and would be glad to give him some free training and range time. He has yet to take up the offer or even fire the gun and go to a range!

People like this, quite frankly, scare me! Have a loaded gun they know nothing about. Have no education on use of deadly force. Have no confidence in or practice with it.
Something goes bump in the night and what is the first thing they are going to grab?
Paranoid enough to have to buy a gun ... who knows what they will do with it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
db2044,

It is refreshing to chat with a fellow firearms instructor. I have two items to discuss and I am sure you have experienced the same stuff. I find it odd that folks will pay many hundreds of dollars for a gun, pay $50 for ammo, but not buy a $15 pair of ear protectors or a $15 gun case! Far fewer sign up for a firearms instruction course because "anybody can shoot a gun."

Last year I walked into my rural local gun shop. It is a small town and just as I was entering, a 30ish lad and his girlfriend came out of the shop and he had an AR over his left arm "Indian Style" carry. The couple walked down the street to their nearby parked truck. I strolled over and asked him why he did not have a gun case to transport his AR. The lad said, "I don't need a gun case." I advised it would shield and protect his AR and not offend non-gun owners driving or walking past his arm. He just shrugged and drove off. In my early days, I made my first gun cases from the legs of pants in the family rag bag. My mother sewed shut the ankle end and my rifle rode protected inside the pant leg.

In 1976, when I was president of my NH gun club, I was alone on the outdoor range one Saturday morning about 8:00a.m. A new club member, a 25ish lad came onto the range with his new purchase: He had a .44 Magnum M29 S&W and a $40 box of factory ammo. He parked his stuff on the next bench and advised he wanted to test fire his .44 Magnum. He had neither targets or ear muffs. I put a target up on the 25 yard berm target backer and offered him my muffs. I said I would sit in my truck nearby for the 6 rounds he said he would fire. The lad said, "I won't disturb your shooting, so I will not use your ear muffs." He shot 6 rounds and left the range quickly.

Nine days later we had our regular Monday evening club meeting. The lad came into our hall and told me he was wrong! He said, "My ears "rang" for 3 days, I had the headache of my life and lost 3 days work." I asked him why he did not pay $15 for ear muffs after he paid $600 for a revolver." He said, "I was only going to fire 6 rounds." I told him 6 rounds were 6 TOO MANY!

Why don't new gun buyers buy ear muffs and gun cases? It is FALSE Economy by any standard.

Webley One
 

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And why ... the biggest thing they can get?
Can't imagine why a novice or new gun owner would go out and buy a .44Mag, 500mag, .460mag. Seen more than a few examples show up on the range, with the expected results!
I don't have anything against the BIG BANG. I'll shoot anything! But, have the experience to handle it and know when it's time to quit.

Had a serious laugh one afternoon when two n00bs park in the next booth with the brand new S&W .460 and a box of ammo. Knew just from the way the guy was gripping it that the gun would part ways with him on the first shot ... which it did! Well, his n00b partner manged to chew through almost the full box of ammo until he was suddenly cradling his wrist to his chest and howling in pain. They packed up to head off to the ER in short order. Those stress fractures really hurt!

Another hoot was the guy with the .50 McMillan bolt and a couple boxes of brand new factory ammo ($5 a pop you know!)
Set everything up neatly on the bench and carefully unpacked the rifle from the factory box. Knew this was going to be fun to watch!
He put it on the bench on a sandbag rest and sat bolt upright. BANG! everything on the bench went flying. He went backwards head over heels onto the ground and the rifle landed five feet behind him. I liked to pee my pants laughing. Once he shook the cobwebs from his head, and rubbed his shoulder for ten minutes, packed everything up and limped back to his car and left.

You see them at the counter in the gun store. Drooling over that monster hog .44. Sales guy asks "Are you sure you want something that big? Ever shoot one?"
"I want something for home protection that will do the job."
Right! Hope you have good insurance!

Can't fix STUPID!
 

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And why ... the biggest thing they can get?
Can't imagine why a novice or new gun owner would go out and buy a .44Mag, 500mag, .460mag. Seen more than a few examples show up on the range, with the expected results!
I don't have anything against the BIG BANG. I'll shoot anything! But, have the experience to handle it and know when it's time to quit.

Had a serious laugh one afternoon when two n00bs park in the next booth with the brand new S&W .460 and a box of ammo. Knew just from the way the guy was gripping it that the gun would part ways with him on the first shot ... which it did! Well, his n00b partner manged to chew through almost the full box of ammo until he was suddenly cradling his wrist to his chest and howling in pain. They packed up to head off to the ER in short order. Those stress fractures really hurt!

Another hoot was the guy with the .50 McMillan bolt and a couple boxes of brand new factory ammo ($5 a pop you know!)
Set everything up neatly on the bench and carefully unpacked the rifle from the factory box. Knew this was going to be fun to watch!
He put it on the bench on a sandbag rest and sat bolt upright. BANG! everything on the bench went flying. He went backwards head over heels onto the ground and the rifle landed five feet behind him. I liked to pee my pants laughing. Once he shook the cobwebs from his head, and rubbed his shoulder for ten minutes, packed everything up and limped back to his car and left.

You see them at the counter in the gun store. Drooling over that monster hog .44. Sales guy asks "Are you sure you want something that big? Ever shoot one?"
"I want something for home protection that will do the job."
Right! Hope you have good insurance!

Can't fix STUPID!
Indeed you can't. But yah know - a lot of that sort of thing isn't stupid. It is ignorance (lack of education and experience). Ignorance is something that can be fixed. Stupid would be your guy with the .44 Mag who (after he had the experience described) ignored what happened and did it some more. Ignorant would the your guy with the .44 who realized he had f***ked up and admitted the mistake. Presumably he didn't quit shooting and did get some muffs (and yes - I know the dangers of presuming).
 

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As long as it's free, I have less objection to mandatory training.

In Texas we have to PASS a written test and a shooting test to get a LTC. This is after a half day of instruction . Training is essential !
 

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I have a another answer to this. Why not say , "Lets go to the firing line, I'll give you 3 rounds free. If you hot the target, nothing loss. If he doesn't hit the target, you might have been able to sell him a full box. If he hit the target, you have gained a new costumer.
kaydees1
 

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As much as I believe "shall not be infringed" means ALL gun laws are unconstitutional ...
Still have to favor mandatory training and instruction in "use of deadly force".
Some of these people are absolutely clueless, harboring notions that they can shoot anything, anyone, any time for threats far less than the high bar set for justifiable use of deadly force.
Nor do they realize the potential legal woe they will end up in if they do.
Gun owners have to realize and accept the huge burden of responsibility that comes with gun ownership and proper use. If forcing it upon them is wrong, is saving them from themselves right?
2A is the RIGHT to own a gun but the many laws that regulate the USE of a gun do not "infringe" on the RIGHT to "keep and bear" except those laws crafted by the "anti's" so as to deliberately make gun ownership difficult or excessively expensive.
If one can afford the gun, a modest fee for training and education is not unreasonable, about the only place the "anti's" "common sense" argument actually does apply.
"Common sense" does say that a gun owner, at the least, should be SAFE, trained, and educated in "use of deadly force" doctrine to keep them from ending up on the shitty end of the stick.
There is a middle ground here where everything is not so black and white.
 

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I always liked the idea of training people in school, similar to drivers ed. Just two or three classes that lay out some basic knowledge and drill in some safety. We might see accidental injuries/death go down if everyone had some good basic training.

It'll never happen though.
 

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"Shal' Make No Law Abridging" supposedly should mean the same thing as "Shall Not Be Infringed", but it doesn't somehow then...............................
 

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In Texas we have to PASS a written test and a shooting test to get a LTC. This is after a half day of instruction . Training is essential !
Yes, training is essential. And a half-day is better than none, but still hardly enough. At least a start.
 
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