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TIPO I LATE WAR ISSUE 1944-45
Anthony Posted - 02/18/2004

I have noted a greater interest in the IJN Type I 6.5MM on the boards lately, but too many still dismiss this weapon out of hand. It might be true that the weeapon was not favored by Japanese troops, or it just might be that with such a low production figure (60,000 total) Japanese troops did not run across this model often enough to have any opinion.

But it seems apparent to me from having an interest in this model because of my Dad's exposure to it in the hands of Japanese Naval troops in the Philippines in 1944-45 that a large number of these
were issued and used in 1944-45 by the IJN.

It was used extensively in combat by both regular and irregular Japanese Naval forces in 1944-45 whenever they were used in the role of infantry.

By 1944 the SNLF/Marines had become improvised units of naval troops and not the well trained elite units my Dad and Uncles faced on Guadalcanal in 1942. These late war SNLF units were encountered in large numbers at Manila in 1944 under the command of Vice Admiral Sanji Iwabuchi for example. They fought to the last man, but lacked the training and professionalism of the SNLF/Marines that Dad faced on the Canal. These improvised naval troops also were used on Leyte in 1944. The Type I was frequently encountered in both these late war engagements first at Leyte and later at Manila. However, it is true that the Type 99 and Type 38 were the most common weapons earlier in the war on the Canal even in the hands of crack SNLF troops.

My point being that the Type I, based on what I was told, and my research was encountered more frequently from 1943 on, and in greater numbers in 1944-45 especially! Battles fought on Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo Jima, Leyte, Manila, and even Okinawa saw substantial numbers of the Type I in the hands of both well trained SNLF and improvised Naval detachments including late war SNLF of lesser quality.

The Type I guns are often in excellent condition simply because they got issued late in the war at a time when overwhelming US military power assured the quick and sudden death of the IJN trooper just issued this fine weapon in the desperate battles of 1944-45.

My father thought all the Japanese 6.5X50mm weapons were excellent
jungle warfare guns and accurate all purpose shooters. He kept several for hunting and such during his time in the Pacific 1942-45. He also mentioned that his favorite was the odd bird he picked up on Leyte that had no Mum. At the time this confused him as to the weapon's origin.

In conclusion, I think too many serious Japanese small arms collectors dismiss the Type I as an unimportant rifle in the Japanese hands in the Pacific War. This is in fact not the case, especially in the great slaughter of IJN improvised land formations in 1944-45. Too me, it's lack of appreciation reminds me of German K98k collectors turning their noses up at the 1944-45 kriegsmodells 10-15 years or more ago. Today the 1945 kriegsmodells are prized variations in any serious K98k collection

I think Japanese WWII rifle collectors will eventually feel the same way about the "TIPO I" as German WWII rifle collectors feel about the kriegsmodell variation of the K98k do today.

Anthony Fortino
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CW Posted - 02/18/2004

Do you think the "no mum" rifle that your father found was a Type I? Is he still around to ask?
I don't think anyone discounts them completely. They just happen to have a high survival rate in very good condition. If i found a T44 in great shape and a Type I in similar shape, I would tend to grab the T44, just because I know that chance are, I'll see another nice Type I before I see another T44.
Just a thought.
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pt460 Posted - 02/18/2004

Nice write up. I have always thought that it was a mistake to discount the Type I. I had one, traded it off, and have since bought another. No Japanese collection should be without one!!
I think we will see the prices on these start to take off as people learn about them and decide they want to own one.
How many T44's were made? About 80,000? and only 60,000 Type I's, some of which were delivered on submarines? Interesting...
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Fatstrat Posted - 02/19/2004

It seemes logical that towards the end of the war, Japanese troops would be happy to be issued the well made, with adj. sights Type I, rather than an LD T-99.
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Carcano Posted - 02/20/2004

From the serial numbers which we know, about 120,000 Type I rifles have been made, probably ordered and delivered in two separate batches.

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
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Anthony Posted - 02/21/2004

I am by no stretch a Carcano historian, but I have a few questions.

1)In several publications they use Italian documents to verify a total production of 60,000 Tipo I included in both contracts. Have you found any Italian or Japanese documents or publications of same that indicate in actuality it was double the 60,000 Tipo I number quoted?

2) I also read that a total of 15 suffix blocks (nothing for the first batch then A-N) were used. In European prewar serial number systems the number of guns is usually 10,000 guns total per suffix. So this would agree with your approximate total, but again published sources state that each suffix used for the Tipo I was not a full run of 10,000. My question is have you found sources that confirm each Tipo I suffix was for 10,000 guns? Or is it a guess based on the number of suffixes?


In my own experience collecting Nazi contract K98k like the Portuguese M941 for example the Germans diverted large numbers for their own use from this export contract. They also ran the suffixes used through multiple models they supplied Portugal with over a number of contracts/years. Finally they just plain short shipped and cheated the Portuguese on the number of M941 contract guns delivered. In the end K98k collectors estimated far fewer M941 made then suffixes used!

Might this example also have been the case with Italian production of the Tipo I too?

Anthony Fortino
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Carcano Posted - 02/21/2004

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Anthony

I am by no stretch a Carcano historian, but I have a few questions.

1)In several publications they use Italian documents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, not to my knowledge, which - alas - evidently is scanty in areas Japanese. I only know about the footnoted reference in Honeycutt/Anthony (Fn. 40 and 41), of two letters from the Pietro Beretta company written in 1969; statements which might be correct or incorrect, written 28 years after the fact.
I would however be very glad to know more about such documents, since they must indeed exist. Maybe even the actual delivery specification are conserved somewhere deep in Italian military archives, like with the German-Japanese Kar 98k contract ? That would be wonderful !


quote:
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to verify a total production of 60,000 Tipo I included in both contracts. Have you found any Italian or Japanese documents or publications of same that indicate in actuality it was double the 60,000 Tipo I number quoted?
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Yes, the most valuable documents: real items. The serial numbers which I have observed span from A to L (this also observed in "Military Rifles of Japan", 5th ed.), and you have now added M and N; from A to L, they always appear to be going over the whole 10,000 range. If you need an extensive listing, I can email it.

Best regards and thanks for your interest,

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
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Anthony Posted - 02/21/2004

The contract guns made by Germany and Italy for other nations just prior to and during WWII were not run in large groups, as they had to accomodate their own military first. So you might see Beretta run a couple thousand Type I for Japan in the A suffix A0001-A2000) then make arms in the same suffix and serial number range for another model intended for Italian military use lets say eight thousand guns A suffix A2001-A10000, and then make another two thousand Type I in the B suffix range B0001-B2000, and then again break the suffix and serial to produce more guns for their own use in this suffix and serial number range B2001-B7000 before going back. So that might very well be why the records indicate total production for the Japanese Type I of 60,000. Yet you see Type I suffix/serial number ranges that run a much larger gambit.

Why you ask would they do this?

First, because these foreign contracts were not a priority as they (Germany & Italy)geared up for WWII!

Second, because the firms were often hiding these contracts true value from their own governments to avoid taxes and kickbacks to their own governments.

Third, and to insure their respective governments did not stop them from making large numbers of guns for other nations when their own military needed millions of guns to fight the Allies in WWII. Heck these foreign nations often paid more for the same amount of material and work to German and Italian arms firms!

So, with no disrespect intended I will continue to believe the Italian arms firms records so far published that suggest no more then 60,000 Type I were made by Italy for Japan in 1938-39 until new Italian documents or published documents alter this figure. Or more then 60,000 serial numbers are reported for this model to a respected collector database.

Anthony Fortino
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Anthony Posted - 02/21/2004

Carcano I like your Carcano web page very much, but I just think you don't have the data to alter the published estimated production figures for the Type I of 60,000. Plus, IMHO an absolutely mint/complete with sling/rod Type I is worth more then the 250.00 US Dollars posted on your web page as a price guideline! Especially in light of low/rare published production figures and the Japanese Naval connection historically.

You just seem to be selling the collector interest in the Type I short too.

Anthony Fortino
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Carcano Posted - 02/22/2004

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Anthony

So you might see Beretta run a couple thousand Type I for Japan in the A suffix A0001-A2000) then make arms in the same suffix and serial number range for another model intended for Italian military use lets say eight thousand guns A suffix A2001-A10000, and then make another two thousand Type I in the B suffix range B0001-B2000, and then again break the suffix and serial to produce more guns for their own use in this suffix and serial number range B2001-B7000 before going back. So that might very well be why the records indicate total production for the Japanese Type I of 60,000. Yet you see Type I suffix/serial number ranges that run a much larger gambit.
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You really don't know that rifle, do you ?
The Type I was NEVER used by any other force than Japan and (captured) China. It was never issued in Italy, with the exception of maybe a tiny number of stray rifles from production leftovers.

In addition: The Italian numbering system in WW II is fairly sequential, and the "jumping letter prefix blocks", probably intended to keep the actual production activity somewhat secret, ended before WW I. There are indeed a _few_ exceptions, of which you may be aware (notably some inconsistencies of dates and letter prefix with M 91/38 and M 91/41 rifles), and you are more than welcome to offer your opinion on them, maybe even an explanation. But these do not pertain to the specific field which we are discussing here.


quote:
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So, with no disrespect intended I will continue to believe the Italian arms firms records so far published that suggest no more then 60,000 Type I were made by Italy for Japan in 1938-39 until new Italian documents or published documents alter this figure.
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You have not quoted (or pointed to) any published source hitherto, although they might of course exist: I do not negate the statement as such, just ask for a bit of corroboration.

It appears - but this is no more than a hypothesis until now - that the initial contract for 60,000 rifles was extended with a follow-up contract.

Sincerely,

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
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Anthony Posted - 02/22/2004

McCollum, Duncan O. Japanese Rifles Of World War II
Excalibur Publications:Latham, NY 1996

Quote Page 27

"Contracts with the Italians called for supplying 60,000 Type I rifles to the Japanese."

Anthony Fortino
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Anthony Posted - 02/22/2004

I would appreciate your use/listing of primary documents and secondary sources that have been published to refute the 60,000 Type I production figure mentioned.

What about this 25000 dollar value on a Mint/Excellent example you
put on your web page. Do you think that is truly realistic, becaause it seems low to me? Look at the prices of Imperial Japanese Naval Type 35, Type 99 etc..

The Type I is not an Italian Carcano. It is a hybrid Arisaka/Carcano of unique design for the I.J.N.!

Cheers
Anthony Fortino
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Carcano Posted - 02/22/2004

Ah; thanks for the friendly follow-up and answer. No real sources thus on your side, just a general collectors' booklet which itself is based on secondary sources in respect to the question which we examine here. I do not doubt that the first contract may well have stipulated a number of 60,000 rifles The exact size of the second contract we do not know yet, but the induction from the observed serial numbers seems realistic. Anyone out here who would have seen serials in the M and N range too ?

I do think that the missing data will be unearthed from Italian archives quite conclusively (either military archives, with the usual difficulties of accessing them, or the archive of the ministry of foreign affairs). After all, this specific rifle contract was of some propagandistic importance for the largely illusionary "Pact of Steel" (which is why the Japanese inspection delegation was photographed at all), and this means that even secondary scholarly sources or treatises (as which neither McCollum nor Hobbs could be regarded, nor do they purport to be), such as monographies or articles on Italian-Japanese relationships in WW II and before, might include a mentioning of this.

The Navy provenance of the Type I does mean absolutely zero as to an estimate of its value. Navy and Army were concurring branches in many respects (militarily and politically), including the infantry. The SNLF and the Naval Base Guard Detachments (there is a more specific military denomination for the latter, but it escapes me now) were just ordinary infantry of the navy, though a bit more "chosen" in size.

The sometimes-found moniker "marines" is technically debatable - is the USMC really subordinated under the USN, such as the SNLF were to the IJN ? I do not think so, though I do not know when exactly it gained its autonomy. And semantically it is very misleading for a US readership, since the unavoidable parallel connotation of it indirectly bestows an "elite" status upon these troops (in training and prowess) which they really never had, as much as I have read.

Sincerely,

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
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Franchi Posted - 02/22/2004

I would like to add my info/opinion on the Type I discussion. The rifle Anthony's father had without a Mum could also have been a Mukden Type 38 rifle as early examples were made without a Mum, and Japanese Army units were transferred from China to reinforce the Philippines, your Fathers rifle may have been one of these. I would think most U.S. G.I's wouldn't know the difference between a Type 38, 02/45, or Type I, etc They would only be able to tell if a rifle was a 6.5 or 7.7, most couldn't even tell a trainer rifle from a standard issue rifle. I believe reported serials are a better indicator of how many rifles were made than any other source, even information from the "Factory".

I have a copy of a letter (from the April 1990 Banzai) from Pietro Beretta talking about Type I's (on their letter head) dated Jan 15th, 1965 to William B. Mozey Jr., Cptn. U.S. Army. In their letter Beretta states: "....Our Company was the prime contractor and manufactured the barrel, the receiver and other main components, caring for the assembly and testing of the weapons-sub-contractors were:
.
F.A.E.T. - Fabbrica d'Armi Regio Esercito Sez. di Gardone Valtrompia
(Bs)
.
F.N.A. - Fabbrica Nazional Armi, Brescia.
p.t.o.
.
On the whole during the period 1938-1939 about 20,000 rifles of this model were manufactured....."
.
If you take this letter at its face value there are only 20,000 Type I's. I can't find my copy, but I believe Fred Honeycutt has a letter from Beretta stating there were 60,000 Type I's manufactured. Which is it, 20,000 or 60,000? By serials observed looks like 120,000.
.
Serials collected by my brother and I and Dick Hobbs indicate there were at least 120,000 Type I's manufactured. Below are the reported serials. I don't believe there are "skipped" serial in the blocks. I have never seen or heard of any "M" or "N" prefix serial Type I's, also there are no rifles reported without a serial prefix.
.
As to value, even if an item is rare doesn't make it valuable, if no one wants it. Italian Type I rifles aren't that desirable to the majority of collectors. The asking price is about $250 for a very nice rifle, most don't sell fast at this price.
Gary & David Franchi
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Type I Serial numbers observed or reported.
.
A prefix serials: 277 1630 1649 2536 4834 6054 6882 8860
.
B prefix serial: 743 1811 3956 5887 6042 6815 7388 7501 8241 9553 9567 9930
.
C prefix : 149 221 378 40xx 4036 4142 5118 6672 6872 73xx 8276 8818 9425
.
D prefix: 33 356 932 1619 3440 36xx 4138 7100 8026 8191 9191
.
E prefix: 90 184 325 853 1194 2194 4272 4989 5888 5914 6432 8645 8817 9528 9781
.
F prefix: 125 982 3203 4526 7240 8359 9632
.
G prefix: 234 841 925 986 1507 2631 4899 5835 5940 6014 6127 6601 7264 8582 9344
.
H prefix: 8 496 1699 1850 1852 5030 7399 9223
.
I prefix: 848 849 1196 4910 5205 5206 8347 8562
.
J prefix: 708 887 2433 5549 7563 9944

K prefix: 369 371 887 1400 1594 3334 3990 5046 6431 7285 7593 7637 8932 9123 9216 97xx 9984

L prefix: 1995 3434 4836 61xx 6262 8532 9192
----------------------

Some of the above serials have additional data as follows:

A4834 has Japanese Kanji & sling also Nagoya proofed on bottom of stock.
.
B5887 has a Mum, under buttplate carved in wood " PT. RUNYAN 1st MARINE DIV. PELELIU 1938 MADE IN TERNI ITALY".
.
C5118 is a Chinese Import to the U.S.
.
D356 has" Type 45" in paint vertical on stock.
.
D3440 (SAG inside a diamond on top of rear sight ladder).
.
E184 short stock variation, came with Japanese bayonet
.
E5914 has metal painted black and has a sporterized stock.

F7240 has a 1"x3" (silver) plaque on the left side stock above triggerguard.
.
F8359 has Japanese sling with Kanji.
.
G925 (88 over 17 separated by a horizontal line painted in white paint on right buttstock).
.
G1507 has Japanese sling, Okinawa capture 1945.
.
G986 has Japanese sling.
.
G5835 has Japanese sling with white Kanji.
.
G6601 has Japanese sling with Kanji.
.
I849 "2" behind trigger guard.
.
I1196 "2" behind trigger guard, from "Sabu Nagaski Japan"
.
I5205 has Japanese Naval Anchor (ToyoKawa) on stock behind triggerguard tang.
.
I5206 GB in an oval on stock behind triggerguard tang, and six black Kana characters on the right hand buttstock.
.
J2433 is sporterized, from Burma.
.
K1594 has Japanese sling
.
K7593 has Japanese sling with white Kanji
.
K 8932, sling w/kanji, remnants of Kanji on underside of stock, below rear band. Receiver has original purplish coloring to finish No history.
.
L3434 (has an anchor under the serial number).
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CW Posted - 02/22/2004

Franchi made a good point about the possibility of it being an early Mukden. There is always a chance.
Could there be a possability of the M and N block rifles never making it to Japan; that is, they were sunk in transport? Surely, not all of these rifles made it, or once delivered, surely some of them went to the bottom while in the ships rifle racks.

I do have a question for you gents. Are there any variations within the A-L production or were these rifles kept fairly uniform throughout?
TIA
-Chris
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Anthony Posted - 02/22/2004

I appreciate the information all posters have provided, but I will await your future research and discovery of Italian source documents before I ignore the Beretta firm's published data that stated that no more than 60,000 Type I were produced in total.

The Beretta firm suggested they produced 20,000 of the 60,000 Type I manufactured, and that two other firms produced the rest from my understanding of the published Beretta sources.

Anthony Fortino
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Anthony Posted - 02/23/2004

As To Value! I have followed this models value for at least 6 years and I have seen them go for 200-250, but only in good condition with missing cleaning rods and slings.

The VG-Excellent Type I guns with cleaning rods and slings have been selling for 300-400 on average for 6 years. I believe that when collectors understand that they are low production 60,000 Total, IJN Exclusive, (Japanese Navy arms are sought after), and a unique Hybrid Arisaka/Carcano design then they will sell for more in the future in VG-Excellent Condition with rods/slings.

In the meantime I guess some guys are gonna grab all the nice ones up
as cheap as possible and make a lot of dough when the above happens! They did the same thing with those cheap Type 38 and Type 99 Japanese models that sold for 10-20 bucks a decade or more ago. Now the Type 38 and Type 99 sell for 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, etc. depending on condition, features, and Mum or not! A heck of an investment and subsequent profit for those folks who bought em cheap back when.

Anthony Fortino
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Anthony Posted - 02/24/2004

Two Interesting Points

1)In response to the question if it was a Type I my Dad found on Leyte? Yes it was a Type I. I was given the gun by him in 1973 and won't be selling it anytime soon.

2)I know a German collector who has a Type I chambered in 8MM Mauser, with some interesting German WWII proofs, that was a Vet bring back from Italy in 1945! Some told him he was crazy when he bought the gun, and that it must have been a Chinese conversion. They went on to state it couldn't be an ETO Type I.

Yet, I noted the Carcano collectors in this thread did say that small numbers of Type I found their way into the Italian war effort during the war!

THANKS AGAIN FOR THE RESPONSES

Anthony Fortino
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gwsiii Posted - 02/24/2004

For your records....
K 8932, sling w/kanji, remnants of Kanji on underside of stock, below rear band. Receiver has original purplish coloring to finish No history. Trey
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Franchi Posted - 02/24/2004

CW...Since no "M" or "N" serials have been reported and, as far as I know, Beretta etc. never listed any serial numbers, I don't believe any "M" or "N" prefix serials were produced. Don''t know where Duncan McCollum got his info but I will contact him and find out. No "M" or "N" serials have ever been reported in Banzai, which is the main source of his information.
If all the Type I's were produced in 1938-39 they should have been sent to Japan by Dec. 7th 1941, so they wouldn't have been sunk on the way to Japan. There could be large groups aboard various ships, trains, or storage buildings which could have been destroyed by bombing during the war, but I don't think a complete letter serial block would be together.
There isn't much variation throughout the serial blocks except for different color oil or stain used to color the stocks. Also some rifles have a shorter stock, most rifles are 50 3/4" total overall length, but some are 49 1/2".
.
Anthony. I would be very interested in more information on the Type I your German Collector friend has in 8mm with German markings. Did you see this rifle? If not, is it possible he has mistaken it for a German "H&K" conversion of an Italian Model 41 long rifle? Please find out additional information on this rifle.
David Franchi
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AZBronco Posted - 02/24/2004

for your serial number list, have seen E4578

Don Blosser

Rest In Peace Don Posted - 02/24/2004

Mine is F4670. Barrel is marked FAT (Fabbrica di Armi Terni?) on the underside. It appears to have never been issued.
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Anthony Posted - 02/28/2004

My Leyte capture is a Type I with a Beretta "PB" marked bolt and a Terni "Fat" proofed barrel in the 49.5 inch shorter stock, kanji proofed sling, original cleaning rod present, and serial number D24XX. The condition is VG, but it does show battle use and is not an unissued weapon.

Anthony Fortino
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Anthony Posted - 02/28/2004

Last question on Type I. If as Carcano stated more then 60,000 were manufactured based on serial numbers recorded does this indicate production might have also taken place during WWII, past 1941 for example?

Anthony Fortino
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Fatstrat Posted - 02/28/2004

In regards to Carcano's statement concerning the Japanese Navy and Army being concuring entities, I might disagree. (if I understand you correctly)
From what I've read, the 2 branches were very seperate and operated individualy. And very much in compitition with one another for manpower and supplies.
Much has been written on the Japanese Navy's failure to support infantry, even early in the war, with ship to shore artillery and aircraft support Some was provided, but not much.
Also I have read that the two branches were competitive to the point that each purposely drafted skilled workers from war industry plants w/contracts to supply the other
I took from this reading the assumption that both of these forces acted individually with very little communication and cooperation. And that weapons contracts were also seperate. Thus we can assume that as the Type I is known to have been largely issued to Naval forces, that it was predomanantly a Naval weapon and can be concidered so. Just My opinion based on my reading.
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Carcano Posted - 02/28/2004

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Fatstrat

In regards to Carcano's statement concerning the Japanese Navy and Army being concuring entities, I might disagree. (if I understand you correctly)
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You have read correctly, though that was the exact opposite of what I meant. The mistake of expression is mine here; because the verb konkurrieren in German means the exact opposite of "to concur", in spite of the same Latin root; an interesting development apart. However, what I meant to say was that the Japanese army and navy were two strongly rivalling entities, militarily and politically.

Regards,

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano

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http://oldgunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28087

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SECOND POST

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Observation on Type"I" serial prefixs...

bayoned Posted - 07/22/2006

I have a couple of Type I rifles, a prefixed "B" and "J", and have had a prefixed "G".
In my years of looking at a fair number of these rifles, I've noticed a pattern.
Almost all of the Type I rifles I've seen have later serial number prefixes, very few early alphabet letters.

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that most of the Type I rifles that came to the US are late letter blocks?

And if this is true, why?

bayoned
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car99 Posted - 07/22/2006

Mine is L prefixed, and have seen very few A to F. Maybe most of those went down in ships' armories.
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Ronin48 Posted - 07/22/2006

There are photos of Japanese naval troops in China with "I"s. I have an 'I' cut to carbine length and converted to 7.62x39 that was one of the 1980s' China imports, Beleive it is D22. There were a number of 'I's mixed with the 38s from China, sory now I did not record the letter prefix. "Old too soon, smart too late."
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akb Posted - 07/22/2006

I think these are under-rated, and some of the best shooters, almost T38 clones in many respects. Anyway, I was tracking these for a while a couple of years ago. These are what I have on record:


Type I Serial numbers observed or reported.

According to Japanese Contract Rifles by White and Allan, with research contributed by Keep and Zielinski:

Series A-F - Gardone (includes initial run, no letter prefix) 70K
Series G-J - FNA-Brescia 40K
Series J-L - Beretta 30 K
Totals assume production at 10K per series.

A : 277 1620 1630 1649 2536 4834 6054 6746 6882 6963 8860 (11)

B : 743 1811 3956 5518 5887 6042 6815 6978 7388 7501 8241 8751 9553 9567 9930 (15)

C :149 221 378 958 3865 40xx 4036 4142 5118 6672 6872 73xx 8262 8276 8472 8818 9425 9729 (18)

D : 33 356 799 932 1619 2215 24xx 3440 36xx 4138 6342 7100 8026 8191 9191 (15)

E : 90 184 325 476 853 1184 1194 2194 3737 4272 4578 4989 5888 5914 6432 6785 8391 8645 8817 9528 9781 (21)

F : 125 307 982 1965 2799 3203 4526 4670 5077 7240 7506 8359 9632 (13)

G : 234 512 841 925 986 1441 1507 2142 2631 2666 4899 5835 5940 6014 6127 6601 7264 8211 8582 9223 9344 (21)

H : 8 496 1699 1850 1852 5030 7399 7858 9223 (9)

I : 848 849 1196 1869 2160 2324 4910 5205 5206 8347 8562 (11)

J : 708 887 1956 2433 5549 7563 7729 9944 (8)

K : 369 371 887 1400 1594 3334 3990 5046 6431 7285 7593 7637 8267 8932 9123 9216 97xx 9984 (18)

L : 195 1995 3434 4836 5867 61xx 6262 7137 8532 8708 9192 (11)

As you can see, E's & G's are the most reported.

Anymore out there to add to the list?
This is a pitiful showing for the rifle's purported production, depending who you read, of between 120K to 140K.
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Jap7.7 Posted - 07/22/2006

The Type I rifles are prefixed with letters A to L. Sometimes the buttstocks are cut down one inch to fit the shorter Japanese soldier. Some stocks are a light blond wood. I have the A through L series collected. I think 60 thousand total were made.

Don Blosser
Rest In Peace Don
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USA Posted - 07/22/2006

It is kind of a small sample but there don't appear to be any gaps or short groups in any of the 12 prefixes so I think we can assume that all were full. Ratios of between 8:10,000 and 21:10,000 are probably just indicative of the small sample and I'd expect the groups to even out if there were more respondents. On the other hand it may just mean that for whatever reason the H-I-J group all went to someplace outside of the American zone of occupation. Are there any survival figures for T38 and T99 rifles?

Don B. in Kansas
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ncmtnman Posted - 07/22/2006

I have one sn--A1859 the stock has a 14 inch pull that's about one inch longer than the T-99's and T-38's I have. Overall the rifle is in excellent shape with a little discoloration on the stock at the butt blueing is about 90%--no rust on the buttplate.

ncdon
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akb Posted - 07/22/2006

Don, I agree.
The statistics are smooth, and there are no sudden breaks.
At the same time, after chasing every one of these listed anywhere for about four years on gunbroker, auctionarms, and here on this site, less than 200 specimens accounted for is remarkable, given what the experts say were produced. And, I have no argument with them.
So, either there are still tons of them out there, or, there are not!
What a thought.
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akb Posted - 07/22/2006

Jap7.7,
You've seen the serial numbers, they approach 10,000 per series.

You can do the alphabet, there are 12 alphas.

The experts say that there are 10,000 that had no prefixes. I have never witnessed one of those

Have any of you ever seen one without an alpha prefix?

So, as ignorant as I am of these, I assert the stats tend to demonstrate 120,000 of these weapons.

Now, for less than 200 to be documented over a 4-6 year period at the height of their popularity, plus the gift of the web to track them, these Type I's are really much more rare than anyone would ever believe, & totally, and completely under-rated and/or appreciated.

And yes, survival rate is what we are talking about here. What's in Davy Jone's Locker doesn't count.

Come on folks, let's post new numbers if you've got 'em.
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HowdyDoody Posted - 07/22/2006

akb, I've got F6695. Nicely polished and blued metal, Wood doesn't look like it ever had a coat of anything.

jim
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bayoned Posted - 07/23/2006

Well, I started this thread, so here are mine.
B9269 "Long Butt"
J4015 "Short Butt"

bayoned
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Rampage19 Posted - 07/23/2006

Here's two more for your list: I8207 and L1661.

Dan Larkin
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Mike Rockhill Posted - 07/23/2006

E6820
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Jap7.7 Posted - 07/23/2006

AKB, I do not do research, Its all I can do to get time to get to a gunshow. I like collecting and leave the research to the smart guys The 60K production I mentioned came from MROJ and Japanese Rifles by Duncan Mc Collum. They both state that 60K rifles were ordered. Keep up the research. I like to help so listed are the Type I rifles in my collection.
A1480
B1535
C8270
D6935 short stock
E6774 short stock
F781 short stock
G1730 short stock
H3068
I6731
J3468 short stock
K6744 short stock
L2860 short stock
All are in excellant condition except for the A series which I will upgrade some day.
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eulitathomas Posted - 07/23/2006

Hello All - Have A3650 and will be picking up another one in two weeks, F prefix and two Japanese characters painted on stock.
Best regards - Tom
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Ronin48 Posted - 07/23/2006

For whatever it's worth, I have a sling from an "I" that has the name of a Japanee Naval base,, unfortunately there was a misunderstanding and the rifle was sold. Some stayed in Japan and were apparently issued for guard duty??? There was an article in the Miliary Rifle Journal some yers back, both short and long stock variations supposedly have Italian proofs in the butt, under the buttplate. If correct then Italy supplied boh lengths.
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Ronin48 Posted - 07/23/2006

Dick Hobbs, author of "The Carcano" (out-of-print?) collected 'I' information during his research He had enough serial numbers/rifle data to be able to determine which facilities fabricated which letter blocks of rifles. This information was reprinted in the book Frank Allan and I wrote, "Japanese Contract Rifles." A few copies are still available
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bambach Posted - 07/23/2006

Here is another for the list,

I 93 It is also marked PB which I assume is Pietro Beretta
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Type39 Posted - 07/23/2006
For the list, mine is K8391.
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car99 Posted - 07/24/2006

I was going to add mine, but I see it's on the list. The rifle is in very good condition, and I know there are reasons why, but I still think it's amazing so many made it through the war and the Bubbas in such good shape.
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Ronin48 Posted - 07/24/2006

There is at least one "I" with a mum, on West Coast last I heard. Story is rifle was once ownd by "gentleman' in Rochester, NY. That much is here-say.

"Gentleman" had a mum stamp, that is fact, he offered it to me for $200 and later advertised it in B'ZAI. "Gentleman" sold me a 'sniper stock' for my first 99 sniper that had a heavily sanded stock, this in winter of 82. I was concerned about the color, but he assured me the stock was 'right' and, at the time, he was "Mr Arisaka."

As I gained experience with 'things sniper' I realized the stock had been lightly sanded, the fullers rerouted and, as I original suspected, refinished. So is the mummed "I" authentic? About as authentic as my story of being a belly-gunner on a submarine!
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stkman26 Posted - 07/24/2006

Mine is A5536
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Franchi Posted - 07/24/2006

Here is a link to a post from Tuco's Japanese Forum from about two years ago on the Type I.
About half way down is a list of serials.

Gary Franchi

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28087 (This is the post above)
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rpf2697 Posted - 07/25/2006

Mine is D2144 & it's in excellent condition.
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vis35 Posted - 07/26/2006

Mine is B9681, it is in excellent condition too. I do not know what is “long” or “short” but it’s LOP is 14 ¼”. Has the cleaning rod and sling.
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Zip Code Posted - 07/26/2006

Hello there:
I have L 1583 w/ the correct cleaning rod. Sort of rough bore, but over all it's pretty nice.

Zip Code
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Ogtree Posted - 07/26/2006

Mine is #K8040. It appears to be unissued. The two-piece stock is bare untreated wood. The case hardening on receiver and bolt is mint, including the bolt face. Bolt parts are marked "PB".
Thanks!

Ogtree
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bayoned Posted - 07/28/2006

One more to add.....
G2420 Long butt.

bayoned
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JoeWest Posted - 07/28/2006

I've got A2769
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WesinMI Posted - 07/31/2006

I have H6742
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Racepres Posted - 07/31/2006

G1133, LOP= 14.25 good to VG w/ cleaning rod, no sling. MV
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stevenjay1 Posted - 08/01/2006

AKB, Here is another...H428
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http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=175127
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Type "I" cleaning rod info 7/04

Type "I" cleaning rod

dlemaster Posted - 07/29/2004

Hi
Recently I was given two japanese rifles one is a type 38 and the other is a type "I" they were in someones trash and a friend asked if he could have them and they said yes then he gave them to me. Both are in excellent condition, very minor dings in the wood that will steam out, and the type "I" even has an original leather sling with kanji on in white paint.
Neither rifle has a cleaning rod, and I know someone is making repos for the type 38. My question is, is there anyone making a repo cleaning rod for the type "I"? I would like to get one just to make this rifle look complete.
Any help would be appreciated.
Regards, Dave
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mac46

Dave, Real stroke of luck on your part. Must be doing something right. Any chance of posting some photos of the Type I rifle and especially the sling? TIA Regarsd Mac
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Fatstrat

I know of no one making any kind of repro item for the Type I. And original T-I rods are fairly scarce and (of coarse) expensive. I personally have never even seen one except in pictures. When I got my T-I, it was minus rod (as seems to be VERY common on these). I looked around for a rod, but I just couldn't go $75-$100 for a CLEANING ROD! Hell, I only gave $125 for the rifle. I just use a T-38 Rod. It's not technically correct, but it works in the rod release mech., and is better than nuthin IMO.
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Jareth

I read somewhere (Jerry Price?) that type I cleaning rods had a star stamped into the side of the rod head.
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Fatstrat

Plus I think they are partly made of wood.
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Jareth

You are kidding about the wood?
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GUN HO

quote:
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Originally posted by Jareth

You are kidding about the wood?

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I have two type 1 s the cleaning rods have no star and no wood, both are the same. GUN HO
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Franchi

Many T-I's have a little 5 pointed star stamped on the slotted section. I think this is an Italian marking as the same star mark is used on Italian Carcano parts. It is a small mark so you have to look closely. See attached photo, hope it shows up.

Gary Franchi


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garfield

The I Type cleaning rod is two piece, all metal. The 4 1/4" long tip is sweated to the rod.
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dlemaster

To all
Thanks for all the information, it is appreciated.
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Jareth
Do you have an adress or email for Jerry Price?
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Mac46

I'm almost completely computer illiterate but I will try get some pics and get someone to help me post them.

Thanks again to everyone.
Dave
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Ronin48

Don Schlickman makes excellent reproductions, [email protected]
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http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=55331
 

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One more serial number repost:

* * *

robg75
Posted - 02/08/2007 : 11:39:02 PM
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Anyone know which are the scarest prefixes for type I rifles? I have rifle A1922 and H21 (barreled receiver and bolt).
 

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Type "I" Statistics

Ronin48
Posted - 11/08/2006 : 08:23:14 AM
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Prior to the publication of MRoJ in 1977 several people were working on Japanese rifle manuscripts, one was Lt. Col. Bill Mozey. After Fred published other similar projects were scrapped and Bill sent me some of his raw data including his record of Type "I"s encountered.

If the person that summarized the percentage of each "I" letter series known will email me I'll 'snail mail' him a copy for a Board update. There are probably 50 or more letter-prefix serial numbers involved, a tad too many to list here.
 

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thorin6
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 6:17:04 PM
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I was at my local gunsmith's shop today and he showed me a Type "I" rifle. It is a combination of Italian and Japanese construction, with a Carcano action and Mannlicher magazine. Trigger guard looks squarish. It's chambered for the 6.5 mm Japanese round. Looked it up in "Small Arms of the World" and another book, and the only real info was that the rifle was make in Italy by Berreta for the Japanese and resembles the M1891. The rifle is a Vet bring-back from the Marshall Islands by the owner's uncle. Barrel is deep blued and in great condition, as is the receiver and stock. It's missing the cleaning rod but otherwise complete. There are no marks on the rifle other than the S/N and a couple of 9s on the bottom of the receiver.
Three questions we are trying to get answered are:
Why did the Japanese have rifles made in Italy?
When were these rifles made?
How many were there (S/N was B6919)?
Unfortunately I didn't have a camera but if you have a copy of "Small Arms of the World" there is a picture of the rifle.
Thanks for any information you can provide.



Ronin48
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 7:40:31 PM
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This topic covered in several books ranging from "Military Rifles of Japan," by Fred honeycutt to "The Carcano, by Dick Hobbs. Rifles were made in late 1930s, supposidly last bunch shipped to Japan by submarine in 42 (???) The SN was preceeded by a letter, A, B, etc. do not remember last reported letter, (someone will.)

Many were used by the Japanese navy and many went to China and were mixed with the 38s imported into the U. S. in the mid-80s. It would be greatly appreciated if you could get the rifle's SN and any more history, what island, etc.

I recently acquired one from Attu and Japanese records indicate there were a limited number on Iwo.



thorin6
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 8:34:00 PM
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The S/N was B6919, and I will try to get a more exact location when I see the gunsmith again. Thanks for the information.
Also, the rifle had a full length stock, and the barrel in front of the front sight showed milling marks and was .016 inch smaller diameter than the barrel behind the front sight.



Ronin48
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 09:37:42 AM
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Some books say Japanese shortened the stocks. One BANZAI (or Military Rifle Journal) member noted that under the butt palte, both long and shor had Italian prooofs (I've never checked), indicting different lengths made in Italy.

In an "American Rifleman" article a story on "Uberti" (sp.) the Italian maker of replica pistols and longarms (?) noted as a child he came home from school and "sanded Japanese rifle stocks." Apparently Italian arsenals 'farmed out' stock finishing to locals for pay or as their duty to El Duce!.



thorin6
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 4:58:36 PM
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I asked the question on the island, and the answer was "Peleliu" which is not in the Marshalls but in the Palua Island chain. Hope this helps.
 

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You can add D1562 complete Tpe I with rod.
 

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I have
C8566 which has lighter colored wood
D3720 which is about 1-1 1/2 inches shorter than the other two
H1610

I just find it strange for the rifle in the middle to be shorter. It seems more logical for that to be true up to, or after a cartain point, and not in between.
 

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Does any one have a key to the markings in the metal for the rifles both Italian and Japanese.

I noticed in post #3 above someone had H21.
I also have H21. It is also a barreled receiver and bolt. Bolt had a broken extractor. The broken extractor took a trick to remove. If you have a broken Carcano extractor I can tell you how to remove it. Unfortunately the Italian Carcano extractor is not the same extractor though it does fit the bolt.

I also have I1794.
I1794 came with the follower spring missing but was equipped with a Type 99 web sling with the wire bails.
It turns out the follower is a bent up sheet metal stamping intended for a wire follower spring. Another peculiar part of the follower is the shape.
The raised ridge that staggers the first round into the magazine is on the right side of the follower. The first round in the magazine is positioned to the left of the magazine well.
Does any one have any information on this variation of follower for the Type I or were all Type I followers this type.

A piece of data from a US Marine that faced Japanese rifles on 3 islands, with the preponderance of that time on Guadalcanal. He felt the Japanese rifles were too long and clumsy to use easily.
 

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I have #C3836, complete with rod, and sling.The sling is from another Type 'I' it has the serial number in Japanese on it. It was purchased from a gunshop with the bolt internals missing. They were replaced with Italian Cacano parts and it works fine.

 

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I just bought serial number G1 at a local auction. It is complete and shows some wear (maybe 70% finish remains). It has a sling with 3 Japanese characters painted in white on the back side. The bore is rough but it shoots good.
 

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My Type I is s/n I9173.

It is marked behind the recoil lug on bottom: "AS" in a rectangle, and what appears to be "FNH" but is double stamped so could be "FNA" and "39" in large characters (date?).

Receiver is blue, and most of barrel is blue, except around chamber, which is purple.

Markings on underside of barrel are incompletely stamped except for this: "$"

"AS" in rectangle is also on rear side of trigger bow.

Blonde wood two piece stock, cleaning rod, and a rotton leather sling of typical (what I would call) French style.
 
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