[Richard in NY*]

Edited to add on 3/30/12
Frank, et al, please take a look at my post at the bottom of the thread. Thanks! :thumbsup:

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Gentlemen:


Here's a Type 99 Naval Special that I purchased for $20 from a garage sale "picker" more than 25 years ago. There are a couple of anomalies, and unfortunately a couple of condition problems. Please note the recoil bolt. It's clearly different from that normally seen. I'm not sure how to describe it other than to say it looks like a riveted grommet or possibly a washer. Also please note the rear sight is retained with an allen head screw. Did these screws exist in wartime Japan? There are a couple of other screws that look different from those I would expect to see, but their patina and overall appearance seems to match the rifle. Original or added by someone here in the States? Metric attachments and hardware are hard to find in the US today and I assume they would have been even harder to located back in the old days. One of the trigger guard screws clearly looks wrong. It appears to be stainless steel (or possibly plated?).


The serial number (12268) appears on the barrel and the cast iron receiver. The assembly number (2688) is notably similar to the serial number and appears on the front and middle bands, the trigger housing and the butt plate.


The bad news is that the wood has been sanded at some point in the distant past. Another flaw is that the front sight is missing. The bolt is mismatched and what I assume is a standard T99 bolt assembly.


The good news is that with the exception of the aforementioned bolt, everything else matches. The castings are very crude and clunky. There is a huge casting flaw in the upper receiver tang. I love the crude stuff!


Comments please. Thanks!

 

[Detroit-1]

Is your hand guard one or two pieces?

 

[Richard in NY*]

Is your hand guard one or two pieces?

Detroit:

I have not disassembled this rifle but it appears to be a one piece handguard. I say this with high confidence.

 

[Trenchwarfare]

The recoil lug, does look like a rivet-and-washer setup. The Allen head screw was being mfg. in the US in 1911. Whether original or not... It's a Naval Special, anything is possible. Other than the horribly sanded stock, I like it.:thumbsup:

 

[Francis C. Allan]

The serial number is not the number on the forward part of the receiver. That is the receiver inventory/assembly number. The serial number, which I can not make out, is to the RIGHT of the circled "TO" character that is the Naval inspection stamp. Since it has the Variation W breech top marking, it should have a serial number in the approximate 800 to 3780 range. This is an early example as indicated full length handguard and other features.

I have two projects ahead of re-writing and revising our old booklet on the Naval Specials, but I hope to get to it in a year or so.

Frank

 

[Richard in NY*]

The serial number is not the number on the forward part of the receiver. That is the receiver inventory/assembly number. The serial number, which I can not make out, is to the RIGHT of the circled "TO" character that is the Naval inspection stamp. Since it has the Variation W breech top marking, it should have a serial number in the approximate 800 to 3780 range. This is an early example as indicated full length handguard and other features.

I have two projects ahead of re-writing and revising our old booklet on the Naval Specials, but I hope to get to it in a year or so.

Frank

Frank:

Thanks for the information. The serial number, on the middle portion of the receiver (to the right of the "TO" marking) is difficult to read, but under magnification it reads as "12268", the same number that appears towards the front of the receiver.

What do you think about the allen head screw and the unusual recoil bolt?

PS: I do have your Naval Special book, but I can't find it. I have way too many books to keep track-of. :sorry:

 

[03man]

The allen screw and recoil bolt are replacements, not original IMO; as is the screw to the rear of the trigger guard, and maybe a couple more in the upper band.

What really "hurts" is the extensive sanding and stock refinish. The serial number has been restamped on the receiver ring, again not original.

 

[Richard in NY*]

The serial number is not the number on the forward part of the receiver. That is the receiver inventory/assembly number. The serial number, which I can not make out, is to the RIGHT of the circled "TO" character that is the Naval inspection stamp. Since it has the Variation W breech top marking, it should have a serial number in the approximate 800 to 3780 range. This is an early example as indicated full length handguard and other features.

I have two projects ahead of re-writing and revising our old booklet on the Naval Specials, but I hope to get to it in a year or so.

Frank

Frank:

I hesitate to dredge-up a post that was well-addressed, but I would appreciate you taking another look at the receiver markings. Let me start by acknowledging that I remember your articles on the Naval Special in Banzai close to 20 years ago and I do have your book (even though I can't lay my hands on it at the moment). In other words, there's no doubt you know more about these unique rifles than I do.

The only advantage that I have is having the rifle in question in my hands for a closer examination than I can provide to you via my photographs. I have spent a lot of time staring at the numerical marking that appears towards the front of the receiver and to the right of the circled "TO" character. I have examined the markings with a quality German made 16x jeweler's loupe as well as an excellent old Japanese high magnification glass. In my opinion, the markings are the same font and presumably made by the same set of stamps.

The number “1” and the number “8” are very distinctive with unusual serif markings. Note that the serif at the top of the number “1” is perpendicular to the vertical stroke and parallel with the serif at the bottom. I spent a good deal of time looking at various serif type faces and almost all had the serif at the top of the number one at a sharp downward angle (not the right angle shown).

The number “8” is even more distinctive with a pair of serifs angling-off the right side of the upper circle of the eight. It almost looks like a rounder version of what is commonly referred to as a “Jesus Fish” sitting on top of a slightly larger circle.

There is also a faint, but visible grind mark that sweeps across the area to the right of the circled “TO” character and the stated number (i.e., 12668) is stamped in that area. An earlier marking removed? A re-stamped new serial number?

Another anomaly concerning the serial number is that it's much higher than it should be. You earlier noted that:

“Since it has the Variation W breech top marking, it should have a serial number in the approximate 800 to 3780 range. This is an early example as indicated full length handguard and other features”.

We all know that late in the war, the Japanese were in desperate straits and emptied the old bins of outdated or rejected parts and cobbled together whatever they could that would shoot. Could this rifle, bearing a serial number in the high 12,000 range be such a salvaged and pieced-together rifle that defies the normal expectations and type/pattern?

Clearly I want to rationalize that this piece is more than someone's basement project, so my potential bias is clear. With that said, there seems to be at least some chance that the piece is “real”. As I mentioned, I only paid $20 for the rifle to some guy who picked it up for even less at a garage or estate sale so I believe it's safe to conclude that there's no deception or fakery involved. Drilled and tapped for a Tasco scope mount with a crudely turned-down bolt handle? Shortened forearm or barrel? Crude checkering? All these modifications and more are the typical handiwork of bubba from 1946 until today. But that's not what I'm seeing here.

The sanding of the stock on my rifle can easily be blamed upon a past owner/shadetree gunsmith, but the rest of the “differences” seem a little outside what the average guy in the basement would do. While replacing missing parts is a simple-enough desire, it's often not easy to find the needed parts. I assume that all the threads are metric and metric hardware has never been easy to find in the States, especially decades ago before the internet made everything a few clicks away. Note that I didn't say it was impossible to find these screws, just difficult.

The serial numbering is not something a typical bubba would focus his time and attention upon. Fakers looking to make a few dollars by “matching” mismatched parts are the ones with the number stamps. The typical bubba? Possible of course, but surely not a common occurrence. Also, when was the last time you saw a bubba installed recoil lug, let alone one that looks so artfully installed?

Once again, I'm sorry to be a dead horse, but your consideration and thoughts would be appreciated. :sorry: Thanks!

 

[03man]

I'm not Frank, but here are my thoughts anyway!

On forward #, looks to me like the "8" was added later, note it does not line up with the bottom of the other 4 numbers and is smaller; I can't explain why the numbers would have been added there, unless it was done to be "sure" the rifle had a readable serial number. On the mid receiver it appears that the original number was filed and an attempt made to stamp "something" there; with the cast receiver being hard, it would be difficult to stamp, IMO.

The hardware is matching to itself, it seems, but not to the rifle. Perhaps the stock and fittings came from one rifle and the bbl/receiver from another.

I would not call the recoil bolt an "artful" installation; as it doesn't fit the wood, and the bolt is not finished flush with its retainer, sure sign of a sloppy job to me.

 

[Francis C. Allan]

It could be as simple as whoever worked on the rifle repeated the serial number to the left of the inspection mark since it could not be read in its usual location. The stock has been sanded and other parts changed as noted above replaced.

The receiver top appears to have been worked on as most of these early guns are pretty clearly marked yet only the center appears clear on this rifle. Very odd indeed. I suspect that a previous owner just got carried away.

You did more than fine for what you paid for it. Enjoy it as is. Maybe a candiddate to a cut-a-way?

Frank

 

[Richard in NY*]

Don and Frank, thanks for your thoughts.