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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Type 30 Question

Topic:



Topic author: SCWood
Subject: Type 30 Question
Posted on: 08/18/2006 11:40:48 PM
Message:
Hello everyone! My first post to this board. I have several Japanese items. A couple of friends are wanting me to purchase their small Japanese collections. Thought I should take an inventory of what I have before I get involved in any negotiations. I ran across this rifle that I purchased several years ago. I am not sure what it is. Have looked at MROJ and think it is an arsenal rework of some sort.
I'm hoping somebody here may be able to tell me exactly what I have and its' value might be. Any help would be appreciated. I have attached a couple of photos.

Thank You
SCWood
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Replies:

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 08/18/2006 11:50:58 PM
Message:
T30 rifle.
Welcome to the boards.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 08/19/2006 12:41:25 PM
Message:
Hard to tell condition, receiver markings well worn, I'd est $200-$300. If you want to sell let me know. [email protected]

Reply author: SCWood
Replied on: 08/19/2006 1:45:17 PM
Message:
Thank you for your replies. I kind of thought it was a T30. I guess all the weird markings are from an arsenal redo? Have several 38s & 99s and none of them exhibit that arsenal stamp on the mum. There is a different # stamped on the barrel than the receiver. The large "S" on the barrel is maybe saying it ok for the spitzer bullet? I feel like it is a book with all these markings.
I'm just too dumb to read it. Oh, am not in a selling mode yet on Japanese stuff. I've always liked it because it was cheap(getting hard to find cheap
anymore) and it wasn't faked (and I guess now some of it is). Have sold some off over the years and now wish I had it all back. Deals are still out there.
Just a lot fewer and farther between.


SCWood

Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 08/19/2006 8:24:03 PM
Message:
SC, the "S" stamped on bbl at receiver may associate the rifle with T38's reworked to 8mm. Mauser. A small group of those came into the country back in the '60's and were marked similar to yours. I haven't heard of a T30 reworked to 8mm., but why not? Please look on page 181 of MROJ, top left photo, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Is yours possibly 8mm., or still in 6.5mm. Japanese?

Reply author: Don Blosser
Replied on: 08/19/2006 9:00:28 PM
Message:
The Arsenal stamp over the mum indicates the rifle was sold out of Army ownership. It could be one of those sold to England or Russia during WWI, some of which ended up in Finland and Spain and other places in the 20s and 30s. It could also have been reissued for police or other non-Army use in Japan. These things flat out got around.


Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 08/20/2006 2:26:03 PM
Message:
The S on the barrel step indicates that it saw service in Finland.


I am working on a booklet covering the early Arisakas, especially the Type 30. Could you please fill out one of our data sheet questionnaires on this rifle? It can be down loaded from the Banzai website or at www.castle-thunder.com/datasheets/30ds.pdf. If you have trouble I can always mail you a copy. I may be able to tell you more about your rifle if I can get these additional details (how is that for an inducement?).

Welcome to gunboards.


Frank



Reply author: Cruffler
Replied on: 08/20/2006 4:24:00 PM
Message:







quote: Originally posted by Francis C. Allan
The S on the barrel step indicates that it saw service in Finland.
Also check the stock out for markings similar to the photo. Would be another indicator of Finnish service.



Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 08/20/2006 5:13:33 PM
Message:
Thanks Cruffler;

Good point. Most examples that were used by Finland have the stock stamps. The S on the barrel step are less common that the stock stamps. Most of the barrel stap examples have the S in a crest. I beleive these are on replacement barrels made by SIG.

Frank



Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 08/20/2006 9:07:56 PM
Message:
Frank, SIG replacement barrels SIG told me about are marked SIG. I've got correspondence from Finland saying the "S" is not Finnish and have read other reports that it is. As a matter of fact, in the first edition of MROJ in '77, I leaned toward "S" being "Suojeluskunta," or Finnish National Guard, but received correspondence later from the Finnish War Museum that they are not Finnish, so backed away from the claim in later editions. They had checked their rifles and records, and none were marked as such. This story has bounced around so many times that I can't help but question each claim. If I came across one stamped "Finland," I think I might believe the origin!!

Reply author: SCWood
Replied on: 08/20/2006 10:06:54 PM
Message:
You guys are phenomanal! I checked this out again after all of your replys. The second Serial # on the barrel had me baffled. If the overstamp mumm means it was released from Japanese military, than it probably went out of the country. If it was still in Japan (police or school use) they probably would have used the Japanese serial. The stock, like the rest of this gun, appears to have been refinished. Using a bore guage, the barrel still appears to be 6.5. It has sooo many markings, I didn't really pay that much attention to the stock.
But as you all suggested the stock tells the story. The serial on the barrel appears on the stock. And maybe with a little imagination, that could be a Finnish national crest. I'll try to fill out the data sheet this week and get it in the mail. Thank you all so much for your replys. Have a couple of other minor Japanese mysteries(to me) I'll try to post next week. Again, thank you all for your input. I have attached a photo of the stock.



SCWood

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Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 08/21/2006 11:20:11 AM
Message:
Good title post and excellent replies, that should be what this Board is all about. Tuco should innitiate a "Look what I found and 'dumb and dumber" Japanese question Board."

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 08/21/2006 11:27:50 AM
Message:
Doss,its time to go take your meds,the stewed prunes are making you cranky.......SC could you post more pics of that rifle and its stock, that arsenal repair in the top edge of the stock pic looks neat...


Reply author: SCWood
Replied on: 08/21/2006 1:41:27 PM
Message:
Per DaveF's request I am attaching somme photos.


I bought this and several other guns several years ago from a fellow in Charleston, SC. A friend told me he had several old military rifles he was selling. It turned out he was retiring. He would have sold me anything in the house and the house if I wanted it. He owned his own business and had never taken a vacation. Said the farthest west he had ever been was Atlanta and the farthest North was Charlotte. He was selling everything he owned and he and his wife were taking off in a motor home to see the country. He had so much stuff I had to run up to the local bank and get more cash. He had bought a lot of this stuff in the 50s & 60s when stores had barrels of surplus guns sitting around. He said he would try to pick out the best ones condition wise. I really got some nice stuff from him and should have bought more.

Wasn't too impressed with the refinish on this gun, but I had never had the opportunity before to buy a hook safety, and had to have it.

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Reply author: SCWood
Replied on: 08/21/2006 1:48:08 PM
Message:
I don't think the cleaning rod is the original Japanese but rather some Finnish replacement.

SCWood
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Reply author: Cruffler
Replied on: 08/21/2006 5:50:49 PM
Message:







quote: Originally posted by SCWood
Wasn't too impressed with the refinish on this gun, but I had never had the opportunity before to buy a hook safety, and had to have it.
Can't speak for the Japanese collectors here, but as a Finn collector, the finish looks just fine to me. I think you have a nice example there.

Here's the "S" on one of mine.
(Pic unavaible)


Reply author: davef
Replied on: 08/21/2006 6:03:24 PM
Message:
Is there a possiblity that the russians stamped the S on part of the rifles they sent finland as in "soumi"/finland...or the rifles were of the one used by one of the groups either missed or ignored by the current finnish war museum?

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 08/21/2006 6:46:16 PM
Message:
Boy, this is getting interesting. Fredh - Many thanks for passing along that information. I had based my comments on an article that Doss sent to me. It is "The Japanese Arisaka in Finnish Service", by R. Charles Van Buren and Brian Johnson. It included the drawing that I will put below. Note that the crest is a lot fancier than simple S in the pictures shown here.

Frank
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Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 08/21/2006 8:53:20 PM
Message:
Frank, you'll notice that is a drawing and not a photograph. Maybe that is a correct presentation of the markings, but the ones I examined in the '60's (and there were several) were marked "Schweizerlsche Industrie-Gesselschaft....." So, maybe there's more than one barrel marking. The "S" on the barrel is similar on the T38's and the T99's in the Interarms 1964 shipment as I showed in the posting on this subject a couple months ago. When you find the same "S" on the buttstock of a T99, you can't help but wonder what is going on. I asked SIG if they modified any T99's to 7.92mm. Mauser, and they did not exactly say 'no.' I don't think they knew or remembered.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 08/21/2006 9:04:29 PM
Message:
Brian Johnson lived on Panhandle (?) Fl. coast, was writing a book on Mosins, collection flooded by tidal surge/storm, about 4-5 feet up in his house. Dropped out of Mil. Rifle Journal shortly after and have heard nothing from him since, 10 years or so back. Guess his manuscript inundated (covered with water, Garfield). Other guy, no idea ???


Reply author: davef
Replied on: 08/21/2006 9:31:40 PM
Message:
I question Ive been curious about...are the S stamped barrel rifles like those ones related to the ones with the S stamped on the edge of the butt stock???(like this one of mine a unstamped? 8mm conversion)whatever was on the reciever is long ground off.

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Reply author: Vic
Replied on: 08/21/2006 10:01:23 PM
Message:
Its very doubtful the S on the barrel is placed by Finnish sources as an indicator of Finnish Civil Guard use. That marking was reserved to the stock with the numbers indicating the district or "county" the rifle was issued to. The S very easily could have been placed later on by the Estonians who purchased almost all of the Arisaka's from Finland in the 1920's along with some other Blatic nations. It would be much more an indicator of "spitzer" than the older round nosed 6.5 mm round. The stock is very intersting as it carries its "S" number-a sure sign of Finnish service and what appears to be a simple carving of the national crest or a rampant lion inside a shield. It appears to have been a Finnish issued to the Civil Guard T-30. During the 20's the Civil Guard bought its own weaponary before funding was organized and the first option was surplus from the government which at that time was the left over Japanese T-30's, 35's and 38's.
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Reply author: Franchi
Replied on: 08/21/2006 10:10:20 PM
Message:
http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11181&d=1192049147

Photo from the book "Military Small Arms in Finland 1918-1988" by Markku Palokangas, Vol 3.
It states: In 1919 Japanese rifles were given to the Civil Guard by the Finnish Army. Some of the barrels of rifles received by the Civil Guard were worn out and in 1923 new barrels were ordered from the SIG works in Switzerland. David Franchi


Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 08/22/2006 5:57:05 PM
Message:
Davef, I've got both T38's and T99's with wrist markings similar to yours. I posted photos of the T99 with that marking a couple months ago. Really would like to get the big picture. Every riddle I ever solved was very simple in the end. Bet this one is the same.

Reply author: Finn Collector
Replied on: 08/26/2006 4:07:53 PM
Message:
Per the cleaning rod question above, it appears (appears) that you may have a Swedish 6.5 Mauser cleaning rod. The Swede Mausers were also used by the Finns.


NICE RIFLE!

Reply author: Cruffler
Replied on: 08/26/2006 5:30:44 PM
Message:
Cross posted from the collectors forum.


Subject: S=Finland?






Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 08/26/2006 8:50:06 PM
Message:
Cruffler, there's still a fly in the ointment. It's easy to accept the "S" with 5-digit number stamped on the buttstock as signifying Finnish Guard. The lone "S" must be something else altogether, and unrelated, especially when you look back at the posting I made a couple months ago, showing the T99 with similar "S" stamped behind the lower tang. T30's, 38's, 99's were all together in the same Interarms shipment back in '64. Many had the "S" stamping on the buttstock and barrel at receiver.

Reply author: Finn Collector
Replied on: 08/26/2006 10:40:14 PM
Message:








quote: Originally posted by fredh
Cruffler, there's still a fly in the ointment. It's easy to accept the "S" with 5-digit number stamped on the buttstock as signifying Finnish Guard. The lone "S" must be something else altogether, and unrelated, especially when you look back at the posting I made a couple months ago, showing the T99 with similar "S" stamped behind the lower tang. T30's, 38's, 99's were all together in the same Interarms shipment back in '64. Many had the "S" stamping on the buttstock and barrel at receiver.
On an earlier post, it was noted that Finland sold many of these off to other countries in the earlier part of the 1900s. Many went to Estonia. However I have yet been unable to identify any that I have ever seen with Estonia. I believe that Tuco was looking into this however, I have not heard of any Estonian identification marks. I have one T38 that has origins of Japan, UK, Finland, ??, US.

Your S mark COULD have been a Finnish CG mark but I have never seen or identified another with that mark. Plus the "S" in your picture really does not look like a Finnish "S" for their Civil Guard Units.

Anyway, we should maybe start a post on the Survey Forum for those with these. Maybe we can find some similarities??

Reply author: Cruffler
Replied on: 08/26/2006 11:13:51 PM
Message:
Just a casual look at the "S" marking on the stock and metal they kind of look similar. But I merged the two and clearly they are not the same style. So all I can add is that it could be, but as Vic and Finn Collector have said, it may be Estonian. Anyone have any Estonian militaria with a "S" mark to compare?

(pic unavaible)



Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 08/28/2006 7:07:31 PM
Message:
Dear SCWood:

Could you contact me via e-mail. The link through gunboards does not reach you for some reason.

Thanks.


Frank

 

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WOW.... Nice with the SIG marking as those are super uncommon. What a nice find.... It makes a Finn collector drool.
 
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