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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Last year I was able to pickup a Type 2 in really nice condition, what I didn't realize at the time was there is a German high eagle stamp in the stock. The guys at Morphy and Rock Island think its legit, but I haven't gotten any information as to how this would occur. Yanagi mission?

Have any of you seen this before? Any thoughts on the rifle at all are appreciated







 

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Years ago, now lost to the ages, there was an infamous thread on this forum about someone’s grandfather who served on a battleship in the Pacific War. After a particularly horrific battle this young sailor climbed into the cockpit of Japanese Kamikaze plane that had crashed on the deck of his ship. Doubtlessly killing many.

Our intrepid sailor, reaching through the bloody gore of the Japanese pilot who was ripped apart in the crash, pulled out an album of photos of the deceased and his family.

Remarkably this album of photos remained in the WWII sailor’s attic until more than sixty years later it was pulled, covered with dust, from its hiding place. With the able assistance of a cook in a Japanese sushi bar the Vet’s grandson was able to translate the notes in the album and came to Gun Boards to share his epic story of the Kamikaze’s photos.

That story is more believable than the idea that a secret mission between the Nazi and the Japanese resulted in your spectacularly marked Type 2 paratrooper rifle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I'm used to these responses. I just find it interesting that the folks at RIA, Morphy and NRAFFF believe there is a connection and disagree with you.

I appreciate you taking the time to type up that long story in order to try and embarrass me though.

I've had conflicting opinions, the "experts"(for whatever thats worth) have disagreed with you. I'm curious to see if anyone here thinks there is a chance
 

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Those auctions houses aren't experts in everything. I've seen them sell plenty of questionable items in the past. I'd be curious what aspects of that stamp they feel make it more credible than anything else to be legit.

I'm not an expert in German stamps, but from my understanding they all serve a very specific purpose and for a certain time frame. So what exactly is the meaning of this particular stamp?
 

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I don't think Richard's comment was meant to be abrasive, but rather in jest. It's hard to convey tone over text though.

You do have a very very nice rifle though, but I have to agree that it is nearly impossible, not just improbable, that such a mark could be correct. It just simply wasn't done, sorry to say. If you're so inclined, you may be able to steam the marking out.

One thing to understand is that the people at RIA and Morphy's are businessmen first. The guys who wrote the books frequent this board and have made it such a valuable resource of knowledge. Thank you for sharing your rifle, it's not often you see a mummed Type 2!
 

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Not RIA or Morphy; but been around a few years and have worked with a major importer in the distant past; the stamp does not seem consistent with German marking of trial rifles. This certainly was not a captured gun, and the stamp is still not consistent. I agree, a bad idea by someone with a stamp; that ended up defacing a nice rifle. Bubba always seems to pick nice pieces.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I do know the folks at the auction houses are in it to make money first, and I'm not defending the stamp as legit either. I've hade a hard time finding much info at all. I've tried to get Don's book but as yet have been unable to. I posted not to sell a tale but see if there is any chance of legitimacy, hoping the knowledge here could put it to bed. I as well presumed somebody just smacked it with a stamp at some point, just often get ridicule when trying to learn more.

I appreciate both of your opinions and responses. @Nambu what tells you it isnt a capture? Not challenging, curious
 

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It’s fake. These guns don’t exist. It’s like a hippo with wings, there is nothing to do other than say “hippos don’t have wings.” The discussion is over.

Anything beyond that is the emotional defense of a fake gun, so as to preserve the pride of ownership and the money associated with the purchase. We all buy fakes sometimes. This happens. Move on and learn from it.

Auction houses are full of crap. It’s their job to swindle money from people that believe stories about Nazi Japanese paratroopers. If you want validation go talk to them some more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Well I didn't buy a fake. I didn't buy a story. I got an amazing deal on this excellent example of a type 2 and noticed the stamp later.

The animosity is rather astounding tbh, as I'm looking for none of the things you accuse me of. I didn't post here for validation, certainly not for a lecture.

I will look for civil conversation elsewhere, it appears I won't find it here.
 

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Nazi die stamps have been around for a long time and their misuse is legendary. There are some very nice new ones available if you care to search the internet. It is very sad to see that some ignorant clown defaced a very nice rifle.
Pretty much this. I've seen guns at auctions with totally random waffenamts all over them. Some places will flat out say they are fake in the listing. Others roll with it, whether they realize they are fake or not. I doubt you will find any evidence at all of any Type 2 making it's way to Germany for testing. The Germans would have had zero reason to test a Type 2 and look at a gun in 7.7. I don't really have any evidence for the OP, but it is far more likely Bubba got a nice German cartouche and started tagging random guns and weaving tall tales to try and sell them.
 

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Well I didn't buy a fake. I didn't buy a story. I got an amazing deal on this excellent example of a type 2 and noticed the stamp later.

The animosity is rather astounding tbh, as I'm looking for none of the things you accuse me of. I didn't post here for validation, certainly not for a lecture.

I will look for civil conversation elsewhere, it appears I won't find it here.
Alright. Take your toy and go home. We have better things to do that dispel the auction house story about a super secret Nazi naval mission involving Japanese paratroopers or whatever. It’s fake.
 

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I bought a couple of type 99 rifles for parts from a friend. I really didn’t look over them to good since they were for parts only. When I got them home and started to see what I could use off them I noticed nazi eagle proofs in the wood. I called my buddy and he said “oh yeah I bought some german stamps and tried them on the stocks of the jap rifles before I used them on my Mausers”. I never bought any of his Mauser that’s for sure. I believe he got them off an eBay seller fudosan1. Who still sells stamps now.
 

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Auction houses don’t know jack, or care really. There’s a major auction coming up with a ton of Vietnam bringbacks with fake papers, advertised as legit. Once they have the money that’s it. I don’t know many that offer a refund option for buying faked items.
 

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Here is a clean solution: ask the auction house(s) to provide documentation that these guns exist. I’m not talking about some 1960s paper back book that says Nazi navy guys worked with Japanese paratroopers. I mean a legit and acknowledged source that says and shows evidence that such guns were marked and existing.

This should be easy to prove, if it’s true. The Germans documented everything.
 

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An extremely nice rifle, but I agree that the Kriegsmarine eagle is a concern. A line of inquiry may be along the lines of Japanese and German naval contact. Germany sent U Boats to the Far East (such as those operating out of Penang in Malaysia) to operate and transport technical info / samples, and Japan sent big fleet submarines to Germany so as to exchange vital strategic materials and gold. It may be worth a bit of research to see what happened to the various submarines when they got to their destinations and returned home.

How a paratrooper rifle could possibly end up in a submarine I do not know, but in the cramped confines of a submarine, maybe being able to stow a long rifle disassembled was an advantage? It may have been a sensible thing from the practical point of view, but as far as the Japanese Army was concerned, some have said that their adversaries were the Americans, but their real enemy was the IJN. So maybe it would not be all that feasible from a political perspective? But it is a fact that there had to be a lot of Army-Navy co-operation to supply the Pacific island garrisons.

Anyhoo, looking at the stories of Japanese submarines I-29 and I-52 makes interesting reading if nothing else. Is there any story as to where the Type 2 came from? Probably a SWPA vet bring-back, but if there was actual evidence it came out of Europe (however unlikely), you would have to re-evaluate the situation. My own sporadic reading on the submarine angle indicates that there were not many survivors, and the USN had an amazingly comprehensive and well equipped program to hunt down and sink individual submarines mid-Atlantic, such as the I-52.

So in summary, I don't hold out any great hope, but maybe investigating the submarine line of inquiry will be interesting. Sometimes the journey is more rewarding than the destination. Cheers, D.
 

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It's a moot point anyway, because the German Navy had long ceased marking their firearms by the earliest time the Type 2 could have been produced. Onkle passed away in '02 but he used to visit us in the US every other summer. He had served in the Reichsmarine beginning as a cadet aboard the old "Schlesien" in 1928 until 1947. He loved gun shows and had an amazing memory. Once a seller had a bye 43 P.38 offered at a ridiculous price because it had a similar navy proof. Uncle pulled me aside and told me that the navy had eliminated the practice of using its own proofs on firearms years earlier.
 
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