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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Type 02/45 Pics and Q's
Topic:
Topic author: JWMWITZ
Subject: Type 02/45 Pics and Q's
Posted on: 04/28/2005 1:39:27 PM
Message:

This is the first 02/45 I have ever seen let alone owned; just got it off Gunbroker. Anyway, it's sure a crazy rifle. The receiver, bolt and trigger all match each other via an assembly number, and are in mint condition. No serial number or dust cover grooves. The rest of the rifle is the training rifle configuration. There are some interesting markings inside the handguard and stock channel as well as numbers painted on the front band.

The receiver rests on top of the top tang which seems weird as it interferes with the trigger pull. Is this the norm?

Do the varients of this rifle with the double holes in the lower tang
have a screw that fits, or is the one I have missing the screw?
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Replies:

Reply author: GunNut1975
Replied on: 04/28/2005 6:20:25 PM
Message:
I think(don't hold me to this)it's supposed to be missing that screw.From what I've read when they were put back into service they used training rifle furniture,and the few photos I've seen of other rifles were missing that screw.Hell of a nice find!

Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 04/28/2005 6:27:56 PM
Message:
John, one of mine is similar to yours and has the 2nd screw in the lower tang. Mine is different from yours in that it has the barrel threads at the receiver running out toward the rear sight, and the barrel is threaded at the front sight. Otherwise, very similar. Congrats on a scarce find.

Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 04/28/2005 7:24:14 PM
Message:

I'm keeping a spreadsheet of data for these rifles. With an internal serial # of "155", I'm betting that the rifle has a fixed (peep) rear sight. Can you confirm? Also, can you tell me what the ass'y. number and katakana prefix are? Thanks!

C/

Reply author: JWMWITZ
Replied on: 04/28/2005 8:40:14 PM
Message:
The assembly number on the bolt, receiver and trigger are 696, preceeded by a kangi symbol. Not sure what the numbers inside the handguard are for. I've seen similar numbers inside Navy Specials though.

The rear sight is adjustable, but appears to be from a trainer.
Pictures are not downloading right now. I'll post the assembly number and sight pictures later.


John in Charlotte, NC




Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 04/28/2005 9:35:27 PM
Message:

Thanks John. Interesting in that the rifle has an adjustable rear sight. All of the high-numbered examples to this point have peep rear sights. Looking forward to seeing the ass'y. number photos.

C/

Reply author: Quigley
Replied on: 04/29/2005 01:21:03 AM
Message:
Friends, this is the rifle that Earl Pahler, USN, brought back.
See stamping on butt plate.
The receiver and trigger are marked as (i)667.
The bolt as (perhaps i) 143.
If the bolt Kana is not "i", what is it?
I have images of most of the markings.
Please help identify.
Best regards,
Quigley
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Reply author: CW
Replied on: 04/29/2005 02:44:41 AM
Message:
Neat find! Looks like it might be katakana 'e'or 'yu', badly struck. The other parts are stamped 'a'66'ku'. 93 in Kanji on the bayonet lug/nose cap (rack number?). Weren't these used exclusively in Okinawa?

Reply author: JWMWITZ
Replied on: 04/29/2005 09:13:23 AM
Message:
Quigley, it seems as though our rifles are only about 30 numbers apart and have nearly the exact same characteristics. My rack number is 90 and yours is 93. The rear sight is exactly the same as the one on mine.

The kangi symbol in your pictures is the same one in front of the assembly number on mine.

Does the receiver on yours sit on top of the top tang, or does it fit into the stock in front of the tang like a "normal" Arisaka?

The handguard on mine is fastened to the stock with two little nails.

I can't say for sure mine came from Okinawa, but I sure hope it did since I lived there for five years. I'll contact the seller and see if he knows where it came from.

What's amazing to me about this rifle is that the Type 35 action is in nearly mint condition. It has a really nice deep blue finish and not a spot of rust. The bolt is in the white and completely stain free.

John in Charlotte, NC



Reply author: Quigley
Replied on: 04/29/2005 10:49:17 AM
Message:
John, thank you for the observations. Peas in a pod!

I include my comments in [brackets].

The kangi symbol in your pictures is the same one in front of the assembly number on mine. [CW, in a good call, suggests that what I saw as an initial "7" is actually "ku". Do you have the same character after the two digits?]

Does the receiver on yours sit on top of the top tang, or does it fit into the stock in front of the tang like a "normal" Arisaka?
[I have to pull the receiver into the inletting with the inside screw. Without that screw tension, my receiver would sit on top of the tang. See images below, the first with the bolt head covering the screw. The second with the bolt removed, showing the screw.]

The handguard on mine is fastened to the stock with two little nails.
[Mine too]

What's amazing to me about this rifle is that the Type 35 action is in nearly mint condition. It has a really nice deep blue finish and not a spot of rust. The bolt is in the white and completely stain free.
[Mine has the beautiful blue, but it is pitted around the muzzle, and the bolt is slightly stained]

John, I see differences between the ink/paint markings on the your stock and the pencil markings on the inside of my inletted stock and hand guard. Would you please check to make sure that your's either has or does not have additional pencil markings?

Everyone: How often do you see characters AFTER assembly marks?

Best regards,
Quigley


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Reply author: JWMWITZ
Replied on: 04/29/2005 12:58:25 PM
Message:
I will check for markings inside the stock this evening. Here's a photo of the assembly number on the receiver. The trigger and bolt have the same number and kanji.

I think I assembled the rifle incorrectly. Thanks for the photos of the rear tang.

John
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Reply author: Quigley
Replied on: 04/29/2005 1:29:17 PM
Message:
John, thank you. Your 696 numbers suggest that mine is 667, not 66 ku.
Both CW and I see the "7" as perhaps a number or perhaps a character.
Edokko, would you be so kind as to tell us whether or not you see a number or character?
Quigley
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Reply author: JWMWITZ
Replied on: 04/29/2005 3:08:33 PM
Message:
Quigely,

I checked for penciled in numbers and did not find any. I did manage to get the rifle to fit together properly thanks to your photos, although I had to put a small wooden shim under the tang. Maybe the second screw that's missing somehow holds this tang in the right place.

The stock on mine was duffle cut. Is yours? I wonder if this was brought back by a shipmate of Pahler. I contacted the seller but he could not recall where the gun came from (big gun shop).

Also, does yours have the second rear tang screw? If so, perhaps I could borrow it and have a copy made


John



Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 04/29/2005 3:39:56 PM
Message:
Hi Quigley,

I sent you an e-mail, but yes, the assy numbers on both the receiver bottom and the trigger on your T-35 receiver is a Katakana "a" followed by a three digit number 667. The 7 looks like the Katakana "ku" but going with the norm of assy numbering systems, the kanas (either Katakana or Hiragana) are only marked before the numerals. Your bolt has the Katakana "yu" followed by the three digit numerals 143.
Your receiver sort of makes me believe is the evidence that on the old matching system (T-30, T-35 and early T-38 and T-44), the assy numbers were applied before the serial numbers were applied on the receivers.
I wonder if Frank has some thoughts on this.

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 04/29/2005 4:05:11 PM
Message:
Another observtion on the receiver/barrel of your photo is that the barrel seems to be original to the receiver. It has the "ishi" inspector's mark found on early rifles and also the "B" mark and the delta circle on the chamber area. I have heard that many of these 02/45 had a mishmash of barrels fitted onto the T-35 receivers (some with MG barrels), but yours seem to have had been warehoused with the original barrel attached before the 45 makeover.
What is strange is that the rear sight collar looks like it has been replaced with the coarse trainer rear sight from the original rear sight. I can see the original positioning marks on the chamber to barrel sleeve area, where the position match was made with the original collar.

Reply author: Quigley
Replied on: 04/29/2005 7:39:21 PM
Message:
John amd Edokko, thank you and I will reply in [brackets]. Quigely,

Maybe the second screw that's missing somehow holds this tang in the right place. [This is how I got it to fit. I carefully turned the screw which drew down the receiver to nest against the back tang.]

The stock on mine was duffle cut. Is yours? [Uncut]

Also, does yours have the second rear tang screw? If so, perhaps I could borrow it and have a copy made. [I will take it to a machine shop and have them copy it. Anyone else need this screw?]

Another observtion on the receiver/barrel of your photo is that the barrel seems to be original to the receiver. [This is how it looks to me also.]

What is strange is that the rear sight collar looks like it has been replaced with the coarse trainer rear sight from the original rear sight. I can see the original positioning marks on the chamber to barrel sleeve area, where the position match was made with the original collar. [Again, that is what it looked like to me. Lots of hand fitting required to adjust it to this barrel. Why? Anyone have an explanation?]


Reply author: JWMWITZ
Replied on: 04/30/2005 08:38:30 AM
Message:
Quigley,

A copy of the screw would be great. Please let me know what it costs and I'll send you a check
You can email an address to:


[email protected]

Do you have a machine shop connection that can make any type of screw?

John in Charlotte, NC



Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 04/30/2005 09:58:21 AM
Message:
John, I was sitting here trying to answer an e-mail from Quigley when I noticed that I didn't post my previous message to you like I should have. The missing screw on your 02-45 is the tang screw and screws into the upper tang. You didn't post a photo of the upper tang; but, if there is a threaded hole in the middle of the upper tang and a hole in the stock wrist to the trigger guard hole in question, then you are missing the tang screw. If the upper tang is lacking this feature (and I wouldn't be surprised), then the trigger guard was drilled but the assy not finished properly. Under those circumstances, no additional screw is required.

Reply author: JWMWITZ
Replied on: 04/30/2005 5:47:23 PM
Message:
Fred, Here's a picture of the upper tang and the rear part of the trgger guard. It would seem from your description this rifle should have the second screw. There are two holes which pass through the stock.
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John in Charlotte, NC


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