[Richard in NY*]

"3 members whacked today. Hope that serves as a lesson"

Tuco, at the risk of sounding servile, I have been one of your biggest fans since I first found your site back in 1998. You created what for me has been my home on the internet. The one place where I am most comfortable and the place from which I derive the most satisfaction. When you stopped posting daily five years or so back, I genuinely missed your presence. I never found myself in disagreement with any of your posts and I viewed you as a kindred soul. Please trust me that this sympatico, Vulcan mind-meld deal is or me, a rarity.

I would say the same exact thing about Vic, with one minor exception. Eleven or twelve years ago he posted that you could remove the plum coloration from the bolt carriers of the imported, re-arsenaled Tokarevs by soaking them in toilet bowl cleaner. It's heartbreaking when you discover that your hero has feet of clay. Vic never posted that tip again, and over the years I have convinced myself that it was a momentary lapse of judgment, an aberration in an otherwise sterling record. Or perhaps it was only a bad dream!

Your quoted post (from Vic's warning thread) however, has unsettled me.

I genuinely do not know whether my presence here on the board is compatico with the new directive that you both have established. Rationally, I feel "safe" because I do not believe that I have ever received an infraction for expressing my opinion. (Disclosure: I did receive one for responding to a purchaser's post on one of my ads and the mod considered that an unfair "bump", but I don't believe that's germane to this discussion.) But irrationally, I feel at risk. I feel constrained and no longer free to express my opinion. It's a very uncomfortable feeling.

Rationally, I also remind myself, that I frequently render assistance to members, new and old, who are in search of information. I try to post interesting topics and share important facts and observations. I never hesitate to congratulate someone on an admirable acquisition, but I also rarely hesitate in meeting head-on a foolish proposition or statement when one is posted. So I find myself wondering, am I one of the endangered few. Does the sword of Damocles waver over my head?

I'm sorry if this sounds melodramatic. Despite my flippant allusions, I am sincere and my concern is heart-felt. I ask not because I am fishing for complements, I'm not that insecure. Clearly, as anyone who has read my posts can attest, I march to my own drummer and I have never sought admiration by appealing to the masses. I am a contrarian by nature, but a reasoned one at that. My online "persona" is identical to my real life personality. There is nothing I have ever posted that I would not say in person to the intended recipient. Nothing.

Some are guilty of letting their fingers tap the keys without first tapping their brain cells to compose their thoughts. I'm not guilty of that sin, but I must confess that sometimes I put too much thought into a forum topic. I am also guilty of sometimes failing to follow-up when I state that I'll come back later to a particular thread to post my opinion. The problem is that so very often, the topic in question is too large and unmanageable to address in a few lines or sentences. More times than I can count, I have spent hours ruminating over an issue and charting in my mind a response that could cover dozens of footnoted pages. I have to remind myself that few if any care enough about my views to justify even a fraction of the time it would take to compose some of the replies I am tempted to post.

Opinionated, yes. A blow-hard, hopefully not.

I am certainly more of a strict censor of my words than anyone else could possibly be for the simple reason that my words have far more significance to me than they could to any other person. I am guided by my own sense of propriety and sensibility. I believe that a person can legitimately be judged by their words and opinions, so I take great care when expressing my opinion lest I be judged lacking. I may attack someone's ideas, but I don't believe that I am guilty of sinking to personal attacks.

I am not afraid of anyone's opinion and I will gladly entertain a contest of words and beliefs. With anyone. What could be more civilizing than the free expression of opinion and a contest of ideas? If you believe in something, how can you not feel compelled to promulgate those beliefs or defend them from attack? I believe what I believe strongly and adamantly and I endeavor to justify my opinions rationally and intelligently. There is far too much false bravado online and I hope never to add what already exists.

Tuco, Vic, I am not trying to be a pain in the neck. I respect you both too much for that and I like this place too much. I just don't know whether I can continue to freely express my opinion or whether after all these years, I have to change. I hate uncertainty. So I have to ask:

Is it safe?

 

[geladen]

Richard,

You are into expressing your honest opinion so perhaps you would like to hear mine.

It is safe.

Look at post #5 on this thread:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?258083-1922-Browning-question-re-ask-from-Jan

That was posted about 52 hours after Vic's warning message. The post is clearly out of line, but even more out of line after the warning message. I suspect it may have been the last straw.

I would think that Gunboards is "safe" for anyone who does not make personal attacks and treats others with a reasonable amount of respect. From what I have seen of your posts, you fit that description just fine.

Regards,
Bill

 

[USMCsean]

There is a discernible difference between conversational discourse and blatantly attacking, abusing, and belittling another member for a differing opinion or a lessor degree of understanding or knowledge of a particular issue in which they have come here to discuss.

For this was a tactic used by another member of many many years. After repeated infractions, 4 pages worth, it is apparent that they did not get the message and were not working to improve their behavior.

Then there are the members who receive a violation for a small transgression who blow it way out of proportion. I have received notes from long since expired members who have said, "take this site and shove it in your a?$" or "that's fine, I didn't really want to be a member here anyway with all you old, [email protected]&$s anyways" yes, those are actual responses. Would you like to come here and be subjected to this uncalled for behavior? I hardly think so.

Truth of the matter, these people make themselves apparent and bring it upon themselves. Treat others as you want to be treated. It is that simple. And so it is such, that 99+% of the general membership acts this way.

 

[WLD Bill]

You are welcome to express your opinion as long as it is done in a civil manner with respect of others,no attacks or abusing other posters.Remember this saying--- Do unto others as you want them to do unto you.This stands for all posting on these forums and if you follow this you will have no problems.

 

[coneten]

I found myself biting my tongue on a regular basis over the last few years and held my responses to IJ's posts in check. I agree he was very informed about firearms.

 

[carol tenge]

Just the other day, the guy with the cat.. he told someone to do their own homework, and search different sites for the info they needed. Im sure he had the answer, but told the fella off quick. Ive read so much, I still have lots of "stupid" questions about the old rifles. Im counting on you guys to teach me.

 

[Shoots High]

I found myself biting my tongue on a regular basis over the last few years and held my responses to IJ's posts in check. I agree he was very informed about firearms.

I hope the operative word there is, "was." That guy can't get booted fast enough to suit me. He obviously has some deep personality disorder that needs some attention.

 

[cpw]

IJ wa always very respectful to me. Thus I have no complaints with his actions towards me.

 

[Ken in Iowa]

I recall my first visit to the Nagant forum here. I had just purchased a nice 1916 refurb and wished to learn more about them.

It was shocking to see at least one member deride refurbs in a vicious manner. I certainly did not feel welcome to even read the forum much less post there. Needless to say I did neither.

Vic's intent is clear. I applaud it.

 

[kstrads]

yea i felt the un warm welcome my self the other night wheni accidently called a t53 a t35 seeing that i posted in the mosin thread i though these expert would figure what i was talking about but i got told about it in more ways then one. HOWEVER it was after that vic personal posted on my thread and made me feel at ease once again so the majority of people here are good guys.

 

[mr.precision]

IJ wa always very respectful to me. Thus I have no complaints with his actions towards me.

He certainly wasn't respectful to many with honest questions and good intent.

 

[Maximus Slade]

Does this mean that folks aren't gonna get beat up and called names anymore when they want to 'restore' a RC k98 or something like that?

 

[Ol Duke In Memoriam]

I can tell you, IJ and I had few run-in's as he tried his crap on the Nagant board. I, for one am glad his condescending little self is toast.

 

[cpw]

Does this mean that folks aren't gonna get beat up and called names anymore when they want to 'restore' a RC k98 or something like that?

Dream on.

 

[Vic]

Richard,
Your always free to express your opinion whether its is in accord or against what the topic is. Free exchange of opinion on both sides of a topic is what drives often the source of information. Point/Counterpoint if that makes sense.

My directive to change some trends was not aimed in any sense to the membership that post their thoughts freely in any manner. You have always been respectful in disagreement on a topic and thorough in your replies that do not support said topic or in agreement with another. The fact is your a gentleman and your replies always reflect that. We have known each other for what? Over 20 years at least and not once ever have I edited a posting because of language, had to issue a warning about baiting or flaming a member, issue an infraction for any violation of our rules of conduct for membership. That is true for about 99% of our 100,000+ members. Our old core is still what drives this site and it is those old core guys that have also voiced the opinion that some members who repeatedly reach out and smack others should be reigned in or removed.

The simple fact is, what struck me was the number of people that spoke to me about not visiting certain boards on the forums anymore because they were scared of asking a question or getting a sarcastic reply that turned them. Thus they stopped frequenting certain forums where they felt this was possible and a regular occurrence. This is counterproductive and restricting to the amount of information they can and should be able to get and in return willingly exchange. That's just not right. Nobody is in ANY way- let me make that clear again- THERE IS NOT IN ANY WAY a restriction of what you can or an not say here at GB.com in regard to agreeing or disagreeing with topics, replies or people-including me foremost.

What is under review is the participants (a handful) that feel its OK to insult, belittle, slur and embarrass other posters on a regular basis. "Bully" them if you will-if they ask a question that may seem silly or are just starting out and don't have all the answers they are looking for. I don't want any poster- a new young person that is just starting out in our field or a 15 year supporter of GB.com or 40 year collector who has been with us since the start like yourself Richard, to ever feel that they have to worry about what they post. Or to be concerned that the reply they will get will be inappropriate in content or that they be afraid to post anywhere on this system. My comments are strictly addressing a bullying mentality that has surfaced here and there around the forums and yes even here in this forum -that is turning members off, including myself. Kstrads is a case in point. I knew what he was talking about. Nobody had to club him about his typo. It happens. Even to me-all the time.

So please take this reply for what its worth- nothing is changing outside of the bullies who cant quite seem to understand that common civility and understanding are important. Rude rash and demeaning behavior is not. We have always said that at Gunboards we welcome you into our house to share and exchange and even argue about topics. It is the basis of sifting to informational nuggets in our search. That can and should be done as guests in our house. If I came to your house, broke the lamp, cussed at you and insulted you and even kicked the dog on successive visits- your door would be closed to me pretty soon right?

Now about that toilet bowl cleaner- yeah that was not one of my brighter moments and I was actually hoping you'd forgot about that...:cross

 

[DK PHILLIPS]

its a need to express ones self clearly confortably...
its a rule to be self directed toward the "SUBJECT BEING DISCUSSED. the nature of the thread......
" not the individual emotionally disagreeing"..........!
this is what i have tried to do in most cases.....or not to respond....

this came to my plans when i realized i personally didn't know them...so personally i devalued emotional incounters to argue personally!

 

[curly1]

Maybe Vic was just ahead of his time, they have probably made some major advancements in toilet bowl cleaner in the past 11 years

 

[Fatherandersonthepaladin]

I can tell you, IJ and I had few run-in's as he tried his crap on the Nagant board. I, for one am glad his condescending little self is toast.

Frankly, I just ignored his condescension (occasionally baited him about it), and took what information I could from his posts. For all the evil, he definitely knew his firearms.

I guess becoming an elitist is a trap anyone can fall into after years and years of experience with anything. Just need to be very careful about how we view ourselves and our hobby and always remember that we too were once wide eyed beginners asking lots and lots of questions, and if no one had ever stopped to help us, we'd never have gotten anywhere.

 

[tuco In Memoriam]

No it's not safe as I do not like you Richard I am kidding of course. In all the years you have been here I can not recall even one issue you have caused. We are glad to have you here.

The issue is repeat offenders who seem to think insults & flames are ok. No one is going to agree all the time but there are ways to disagree while being respectful

 

[jarred52]

I am glad that action has finally been taken to make the forum more civil. One area that is a problem is that anytime a poster calls a magazine a "clip" we get the definition police belittle the poster as if he were in 4th grade English class when they know full well the meaning of the question. This is totally uncalled for and rude.