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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
OK I was able to go through just a few handfuls of rifles and found two with the 25 marking. This can be updated when I have a chance to check many many more. Here the data sort of corresponds with what I have seen in the past. The markings usually shows up on rifles in 1943-1944 time frame. This also corresponds to when the markings show up on the scopes. I show you two rifles here that are not refurbished in any way in either wood or metal. The one shows the triangle 25 marking as being applied to me at least under magnification over the Izhevsk marking indicating placement after final production.

I don't recall ever seeing this on a Tula made rifle. The others are some scopes that I have that I had access to that show the marking again on a couple and again most of these are not refurbished and then one is but it is not on a typical scope one would expect-its on a Factory 297 Yoshkar-Ola made tube from 1943. That tube shows a repair of some kind in the 1960's.
My theory is that this marking came into use in the 1943 time period and was done in the time frame of control and inspection changes that came into use in this time frame. Many of the optical facilities that were began and under the operational control of the NKVD were either moved or transfered to the AU or "Artkom" (Artillery Committee). It is my thought in examining several of the scopes I have been able to look at in my collection, that the marking appears on the two scopes that are refurbished and in the same position-above the star in the logo of the 357 and 294 factories. This indicates to me that the marking was placed after the logo was produced as in the rifles. And the marking to the right of the logo on the Yoshkar-Ola scope tube indicating that the marking could not be visible if placed above the logo so it was placed to the right side.

I venture forth the theory that this marking was a quality control stamping used in the interim period of 1943-1944 when several facilities were organized and production was moving and going from one facility to the another. In the case of scope tubes, some were transfered from one facility to another for final completion when the later was not able to meet tube production. Hence a 357 made tube going to say 297 or 237 for final completion to take place. Thus an acceptance stamp that the tube and components were acceptable upon completion. I present some tube markings of the time frame-1943-1945 that may support that the marking was not a refurbishment marking but an inspection/acceptance marking as it appears on tubes with no refurbishment markings of any kind. Also it is on a tube with a refurbishment marking and out of the norm in regard to what we usually see. Some of the tubes are very very low in the production time frames such as the first few thousand made in 1943 and the last few thousand made in 1944 before the date was reintroduced in the fall of the year 1944.

Then the triangle 25 marking disappears again completely after 1944 from either rifles or scopes. The marking has also been observed on a few 1944 dated optical units like trench binoculars.


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Two rifles with the marking and non refurbished in any way

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Two scopes both of different makers that bear this marking from the 1943 time frame. One rebuilt in the 60's the other untouched.

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1943 with a lens repair marking

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Examples of tubes from both the non dated period of mid 1943 (A prefix) start and end of production cycle and again from 1944 early non dated (B prefix) to the resumption of dating the tubes at #357 located in Leningrad at the close of 1944. The triangle 25 marking is almost always sen on the 357 tubes and almost always on the later B series production with the marking located at the rear of the tube housing. As is depicted here there are 2 1944 dated scopes non-refurbished with no 25 marking and one 1945 dated tube with no 25 marking but a repair date of 1960 below. I will check on the SVT scopes when I get thge chance but I think I may have a 1942 Krasnagorsk made tube with the 25 marking. I will add to the posting then.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
It appears the 42-44 theory is still applicable but the earlier rifles may have been repairs done from battlefield reclamation or resupply possibly and thus approved as acceptable? The orange markings mean nothing. That is intersting to see it on a Tula.
 

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This one is way out of my league so I will not comment on the research... but I would like to thank Vic for doing the legwork on this one. Look forward to hearing more...I think I have one rifle with this marking but will have to re-check...have not checked the PU scopes either.
Flakshield
 

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The only way to establish that the triangle/25 marking is anything but an somewhat early (1949 to 1953 going by the matching dated triangle/25 stamped paperwork that accompanies scopes with this marking, or even unmarked scopes) post-war Soviet inspection -and maybe sometimes also minor repair or refurb - marking is to conclusively establish its presence on a rifle, scope, or other piece of equipment, that unquestionably left Soviet possession during WW2 or the immediate post-war years.

As far as I know, it has not been found on any Finn capture items, nor is it to be found on anything that went to Poland, Yugoslavia, or Hungary towards the end of WW2 or shortly there after, say, 1948 or earlier.

As far at the 1943 and '44 rifles shown above, who imported these rifles, and from where? Century Arms, from Romania or Albania?

No doubt this marking will be most often found on 1943 dated Izhevsk rifles and 1943-44 Progress scopes - these are the most produced and most commonly encountered rifles and scopes, so naturally one will find this marking on them more often than any other.
I don't know if this has any significance, but my 1942 Izhevsk Triangle 25 rifle fails the muzzle test miserably and is fitted with an 02 marked bolt with a six digit number.

It also has a large 2 underneath the stock forward of the magazine and a "4 in a triangle all in a circle" mark on the butt. I think the other butt mark is an 8 over TR. Any clues there?
 

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I posted this in the other thread, but will repost it here also. 1933 dated "triangle 25" rifle.



 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The only way to establish that the triangle/25 marking is anything but an somewhat early (1949 to 1953 going by the matching dated triangle/25 stamped paperwork that accompanies scopes with this marking, or even unmarked scopes) post-war Soviet inspection -and maybe sometimes also minor repair or refurb - marking is to conclusively establish its presence on a rifle, scope, or other piece of equipment, that unquestionably left Soviet possession during WW2 or the immediate post-war years.

As far as I know, it has not been found on any Finn capture items, nor is it to be found on anything that went to Poland, Yugoslavia, or Hungary towards the end of WW2 or shortly there after, say, 1948 or earlier.

As far at the 1943 and '44 rifles shown above, who imported these rifles, and from where? Century Arms, from Romania or Albania?

No doubt this marking will be most often found on 1943 dated Izhevsk rifles and 1943-44 Progress scopes - these are the most produced and most commonly encountered rifles and scopes, so naturally one will find this marking on them more often than any other.
I've thought of that but why does this marking not appear or have been seen on a 45-48 date 44 carbine or a late date 91/30? Its too sporadic to be a common rebuild marking and appearing on non rebuilt rifles and scopes?
 

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Vic,
I saw this mark on a 1947 m44 on gunbroker some time ago.
sadly I didn't save the pic.

regards
 

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I have 2 91/30 rifles with the triangle 25 marking. One is a 42 Izhevsk that is also P60 marked (and also has the orange "highlighting"); the other is a 1939 Izhevsk IIRC. I will double check as soon as I get a chance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Vic,
I saw this mark on a 1947 m44 on gunbroker some time ago.
sadly I didn't save the pic.

regards
Well that shows it was in use prior to 47 at least.
 

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Can you post a photo of the rifle itself?
Is this a standard rifle or a sniper?
Where and what are the import marks?
Any post-war "box" or "x in a box" markings on the stock, barrel, or receiver?
Does the rear sight base have cross-pins in it?
Are there any of the "crossed hammers in a circle" marking on the barrel shank or rear sight base?
Does the number stamped on the bolt look like it's the first and only number ever stamped there, or does it look like an old number has been ground off and the 6 digit number stamped on the bolt after?

How big is the triangle/8TR marking? Are you sure it's 8TR and not OTK?

The Hungarian bolt makes me think this is one of the rifles that came out of Albania.
In order:-

Standard rifle
C.A.I. import mark on right side of muzzle.
No post-war box markings either on the stock or the action.
Rear sight has cross-pins, BUT it has the earlier slide with the slope at the front only.
No "crossed hammers in a circle" marking anywhere.
I misled you on the bolt number. It has six CHARACTERS, BF6639 and it is stamped and original looking. The bolt body, head and cocking piece are all stamped "02".
I am pretty sure it is 8 over TR, but the stock has been sanded at least once in its life. The mark is small, about 3/8 inch. See picture.

Additional info:

The stock is in wartime configuration with half escutcheon in the front slot and no insert at the rear slot.
There is also a star on the top wall of the receiver just forward of the stripper clip guide. See picture.
The serial number is in the KTs 68xx range.

Hope this helps!

Steve
 

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:(:eek::mad:

I was looking thru a stack of refurb $100 (+/- ?) 91/30s at the Hampton VA show this weekend and saw a triangle 25 marked Izhevsk. Remembered it had been discussed as an unknown mark. Don't remember the bbl date but it was a HEX for sure and Izhevsk for sure. I was sitting with a friend at his table and meant to go back. Continued making the rounds at other vendor tables and forgot to go back. :eek:

Maybe the vendor still has it , should I call??
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The triangle with numbers looks alot like the CR3 triangle marking of the Romanians. I'm almost sure that is what it is. They have been reported as CR 3 and CR 8
 

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My Triangle 25 91/30

The import mark is CAI at St. Alb VT. OK, let me see if I have this right. My rifle has a Hungarian bolt, a Romanian marked stock and it probably came via Albania. It would be much easier if they could talk. :p
 

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The center FED 1940 scope in sturmgrenadier's lot has a "ghost" after a removed diamond shaped marking. Has anyone a scope with better preserved stamp of this type? My 1941 FED scope has a similar trace.
 

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Got this Progress PU today. I was told the scope was captured by a Finnish vet. In addition to regular factory markings the scope is Triangle 25 and Л marked. If you look closely you can also see a remnant of a large diamond shaped marking under the serial number which one sees on FED scopes. Do the additional markings narrow the trophy story down?
 
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