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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)

Top 20 Rare T99 Redux

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Printed on: 10/03/2007


Topic:



Topic author: fingolfen
Subject: Top 20 Rare T99 Redux
Posted on: 11/22/2005 11:12:26 PM
Message:

So I've been going through my list of the "top 20" rare Type 99's, and wanted to get some input. I was going to re-order my list based on raw production numbers - I'm unsure how the current list was ordered.

So based on my data so far, I'd put the list this way with production numbers I've been able to glean from Honeycutt and McCollum in parentheses. Please help me check for accuracy, especially where I have question marks.

1 - Nagoya Series 12 (1,000)
2 - "Kogyo" with no mum (1,450?)
3 - Emergency Use Type 99 (1,500?)
4 - Mukden (3,000)
5 - Jinsen Arsenal all early features (3,000? - may flip with Mukden as I've seen numbers as low as 2,000)
6 - Tokyo Juki Kogyo Series 27 with inletted stock (5,200)
7 - Izawa 4th Series (10,000)
8 - Jinsen "Special Last Ditch" (12,000)
9 - Izawa 9th Series (22,000)
10 - Howa 9th Series (32,000)
11 - Jinsen Transition (pre SN 42K) (39,000)
12 - Jinsen Substitute Type 99 (40,000)
13 - Kokura Series 24 - square recoil lug (<50,000?)
14 (tie) - Tokyo Juki Kogyo Series 37 (57,000)
14 (tie) - Toyo Kogyo Series 34 (57,000)

... at this point I kinda lose some cohesion, as I don't know the exact serial number breaks for some of the other rifles on the original list. I also wonder if some of the other series should be broken further.

Nagoya Series 9 - this was on the original list, but I can't find any documentation for it as the series seems to have been split between Howa and Izawa.

Nagoya Series 7 - substitute vs. transitional features - anyone have good production numbers so I can drop them into the list above?

Nagoya Series 11 - Lot of stuff happening here - you've got rope hole vs. non-rope hole as well as dust cover groove vs. non-dust cover groove. Only the "non-rope hole" made the original list. Seems as if it should be separated a bit more. Thoughts?

Kokura 20th series and Nagoya "no series" also made the top 20, but depending on how you break down the other series, these two may drop to "top 25".




Replies:

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 11/23/2005 08:22:53 AM
Message:
Looks like a good start. If you go into subseries variations, there will be no end to the list!

I don't see how the 20 and no series can make the list, they were full 100,000 series; I have seen plenty of each. If you qualify with the oval swivel, they they should make the hard to find list.

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 11/23/2005 11:43:37 AM
Message:
I was trying to only break a series where there was some major difference that would matter to the collecting community at large. The Jinsen arsenal only had one series, but probably had the most variation in that series. I think it was probably the oval swivel that allowed them to make the list. I'm going to try to do some more digging to get a better handle on some of the sub-series variation.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/23/2005 12:01:17 PM
Message:
Howsa 9th long hand guard, only about 1,500 made. Once owned high number 9th, only one I ever examined without dust cover grooves. This one had a refinished stock with the rope hole feature. It came from a Rochester NY collector who was known to occasionally monkey with rifles. Don't know if stock was original to rifle or not. Tried to get Blevins to take it when I sold my 99 collection, refinished stock truned him off. Later said he should have taken it.

Reply author: CW
Replied on: 11/23/2005 2:24:39 PM
Message:
Even though there are more Mukdens produced than Emergencey Use T99's, I wonder just how many Mukdens are in exsistance in the US? If there are only, say, a couple 100 that were imported in the 80's from China, versus a thousand EU T99's that were picked up after Japan surrendered, then which is truly the rarest?


Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 11/23/2005 3:36:44 PM
Message:
CW - That's another side of the equasion that I'm struggling with. It's impossible to know exactly how many of any particular type of Arisaka was actually brought into the US. The only reliable numbers we have are the production numbers, and even those are subject to interpretation and speculation when you're dealing with sub-series variation. Of the "top five" on that list, I've seen two emergency use Type 99's (both recently for sale on AA - one refinished, one not). I've never seen a "Kogyo" Type 99, never seen a Mukden, never seen a Series 12, and never seen an early production Jinsen arsenal T99. Granted I haven't been at this as long as a lot of the crew here - but it seems as if anything in the "top 5" is pretty much "holy grail" category. I own two series 27 early production T99's, I don't own a 4th series, but I've seen several, I own a special last ditch, etc.

Honestly I think the break is between 6 and 5. Anything in that top five could move around as they're all exceedingly rare.

Reply author: CW
Replied on: 11/23/2005 8:30:32 PM
Message:
Mike, I haven't been long at it either (compared to others here). The only Mukden I've seen was a reciever posted by here a year or so ago. Have seen very few Jinsens, mostly T38's. Truthfully, if I encountered an EU T99 at a gunshop, I'd probably think it was a Trainer!
I have an Izawa 9th. Would like to hear others chime in on rarity; what they have, or encountered.

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 11/23/2005 8:33:00 PM
Message:
I've got three Jinsen's - they're just the more common variations, never seen the early one...

I'm sure the members here probably have the gamut if you dig them out of the woodwork...

Reply author: BradB
Replied on: 11/23/2005 9:15:20 PM
Message:
Nagoya long at 8K+

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 11/23/2005 10:33:28 PM
Message:
My 2 cents...any unmessed with rope hole (especially with full mum!) rifle. Either an 11th series or a 27th series. There's a variant 27th rope hole without serial numbers that's very rare! I won't go into navy specials as I believe were sticking with series marked 99s. For some reason it's almost impossible to find a 40th series Jinsen with a full mum! Regarding 45th series Mukdens, I believe they're all imports in poor, mismatched condition. Many have Chinese modifications.

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 11/23/2005 11:13:39 PM
Message:
Jareth - I agree with you - based on what I've been able to glean from MRoJ there should only be around 3K 11th series with rope hole - haven't fully gone through series 27 at this point.

I was kinda worried that the Mukden arsenal ones would have been played around with.

Also agree that I've never seen a Jinsen with a mum...

Brad - I'm just working on the short rifles at this point. Long rifles are their own category!


Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 11/23/2005 11:26:35 PM
Message:
Took me many years to finally find a late Jinsen 99 with full mum! You'll find the odd 40th series such as no serial number rifles with mums but not your basic 40th. That's another interesting post "The hardest series to find with mums" & it's opposite... "Series most often found with full mums".

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 11/24/2005 12:42:03 AM
Message:
Jareth - agreed - I could fill a gun safe with just the oddball Japanese stuff out there, of course, my wife would kill me when I went to go buy another gun safe... *lol*

Maybe we should start that other thread - I've tended to see all early TJK 27's with mums, your's is the first Jinsen I've heard of with one.

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 11/24/2005 01:30:47 AM
Message:
Okay – so here’s the updated list. I’ve tried to make any major breaks for major changes within a sub-series, but there’s several that gave me trouble (like Nagoya Series 7). This is my first stab at all Type 99 short production, so I’m open to suggestions.


1 - Nagoya Series 12 (1,000)
2 - "Kogyo" with no mum (never had one) (1,450?)
3 - Tokyo Juki Kogyo Series 27 cylindrical bolt handle with rope hole (1,500)
4 - Emergency Use Type 99 (1,500)
5 - Tokyo Juki Kogyo Series 27 plum bolt handle with rope hole (1,600)
6 - Howa Series 9 intial production with AA wings, full handguard, metal buttplate (1,800)
7 - Toyo Kogyo Series 33 with adj. peep (no AA wings), 1 screw rear swivel, no "Type 99", welded safety (2,000)
8 - Jinsen Series 40 with all early features (3,000)
9 - Mukden (3,000)
10 - Nagoya Series 11 with rope hole and no DC groove (3,000)
11 - Tokyo Juki Kogyo Series 27 with inletted stock and substitute bands, wood buttplate (5,400)
12 - Nagoya Series 7 with riveted front band, no Type 99 on receiver, fixed peep, two piece buttstock and short handguard (5,500)
13 - Tokyo Juki Kogyo Series 37 with wood buttplate, one screw sling swivel, welded safety, no type 99 (5,700)
14 - Tokyo Juki Kogyo Series 37 (transitional - some but not all early features) (9,500)
15 - Izawa Series 4 early with monopod, etc. (10,000)
16 - Nagoya Series 6 late with slotted or solid (non monopod) rear band and grooved safety (10,000)
17 - Jinsen "Special Last Ditch" - (12,000)
18 - Kokura Series 25 early with 2 or 3 screw front band, adjustable peep, metal buttplate (15,000)
19 - Kokura Series 25 transitional type with one or more of: riveted front band, fixed peep but WITH Type 99 on receiver (15,000)
20 - Toyo Kogyo series 33 late with adjustable peep (no AA wings), 2 screw rear swivel, no Type 99, welded safety (18,700)
21 - Izawa Series 9 (no rhyme or reason to variations) (22,000)
22 - Toyo Kogyo Series 32 with monopod (23,000)

Wildcards (ones I don't have enough data to even begin to assign production numbers to)

W1 - Kokura Series 24 - square recoil bolt
W2 - Toyo Kogyo series 34 - grooved safety with notch safety indicator
W3 - Nagoya Series 4 - two screw front bond and monopod / monopod style rear band
W4 - Nagoya series 7 - way too many whacky mid series variations which seem to appear at random



Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 11/24/2005 05:35:07 AM
Message:
Mike,another wild card...Izawa 9th seies with single screw front band. Another worthwhile wild card revision is the unusual extra thick wood buttplate found on a few of the 34th series.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/24/2005 07:42:16 AM
Message:
MUKDENS -SOG imported a slew of 99s from China in the late 80s/early 90s. About seven Mukdens there, I talked to the fellow that ended up with them, he had some arrangement with SOG and got them all, even was given the copy of "The Japanese Type 99 Arisaka Short Rifle" I had sent SOG to show why I wanted to dig through the pile. I was interested in filling in the big gaps, serial number wise, in the series tables.

He sold all but the best one. THINK, one was found at a garage sale in FL a few years back and at least one came into the west coast,
that one pictured in a back issue of BANZAI.

NAGOYA ROPE HOLES Should be around 7-8K. Stocks with the featue first used in the 90K serial number range,SSRS stocks used around 96-97K range (single screw rear swivel) then rope holes till series end. Trey could give us exact numbers.

Reply author: BradB
Replied on: 11/24/2005 09:15:05 AM
Message:
It amazes me the relatively low cost of rare Japanese rifles compared to other weapons. Mostly because nobody knows I guess. I have a 27th series rope hole in pretty much mint condition except ground that I bought from a fellow collector in KS when I was there for $450 (price of a modern 1911 clone). Also got my 02/45 there for $600 (had been at several shows and most Japanese collectors felt it was "too rich")... price of a common 1903 Springfield 03A3. I did take a reaming on one trade... a late war K98 all correct for a beautiful 38 short rifle... gues which one is now worth $1200+?

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 11/24/2005 11:40:00 AM
Message:
Boy, I'm sure glad I don't have to look for all those! For my Nagoyas I'm lucky enough to have the following; #10,12,16 & 21.
Just noticed something interesting on #12 (late 7th) - the riveted upper band is numbered to the rifle. All my later rifles have un-numbered upper bands.
My latest 11th 98070 has the ssrs with small screw.
Now, to find #1!


Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 11/24/2005 2:38:31 PM
Message:
Jareth - thanks - I'll dig around on those! I'm sure there have to be some more out there as well!

Eloldehombre1 - yea - I was basing the rope hole off of the highest reported with a one screw sling swivel (97778), but just noticed that the rope hole appears at random toward the end of the series, so you're right, should probably be more 11th rope holes than I listed... any way to know for sure at this point?

Brad - yeah - I think it's a supply and demand thing. The supply of Japanese rifles in good shape with all of the goodies is low, but the demand seems to be focused on a narrow segment of the collecting population at this point, although the recent increase in prices may be indicative of more players entering the game.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 11/24/2005 6:29:52 PM
Message:
My Izawa 9th has the single screw upper band.

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 11/24/2005 11:08:33 PM
Message:
I just got sniped on an auction for an Izawa 4th... gah... sniping during Thanksgiving dinner, how low can you go...

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 11/24/2005 11:24:35 PM
Message:



quote: Originally posted by fingolfen

I just got sniped on an auction for an Izawa 4th... gah... sniping during Thanksgiving dinner, how low can you go...

Well, that was one wimpy-ass bid for a 4th Izawa. Serves you right to get beat by $1.00!


Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 11/24/2005 11:49:02 PM
Message:


quote: Originally posted by arisakadogs
Well, that was one wimpy-ass bid for a 4th Izawa. Serves you right to get beat by $1.00!

I thought it was fairly in line with what I'd seen them going for lately - 03 man recently sold one for $295 if memory serves...


Oh well, live and learn...

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 11/25/2005 12:50:14 AM
Message:
Yeah, I recall it. Seems like is had a mismatched bolt or something. This was a very nice rifle even though it was missing the rod & AA wings. Would have been a duplicate for me. Was tempted though!


Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 11/25/2005 01:17:24 AM
Message:
I'm a poor Izawa-less slob at this point...


Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 11/25/2005 01:27:32 AM
Message:



quote: Originally posted by fingolfen

I'm a poor Izawa-less slob at this point...
By one dollar!


Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 11/25/2005 01:32:53 AM
Message:
Yeah, but even if I'd put in $350 this guy would have probably outbid me... there were three people chasing me on that one from the get go...

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 11/25/2005 2:40:14 PM
Message:
as for rarest I think (JMHO) that #'s 1,2 and 4 all are neck and neck for 1st place and one that I dont see on the list ,series 7 , long rear sight ,early features, is right behind them, with probably only 1000 or so produced...also the jinsen 99 carbines with 300 or so to begin with and how many still known?

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 11/25/2005 3:23:10 PM
Message:
I didn't put any of the Jinsen or Mukden Type 99 carbines because my version of MRoJ didn't indicate any of the production numbers on those. I'll update the list for those.

I'll double check the Series 7 one - that series always gives me trouble trying to figure out exactly what combinations there are...

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 11/25/2005 3:42:02 PM
Message:
then theres all the really weird stuff..no serial number, no-series mark, no arsenal mark etc :) but those variations dont really count being beyond ultra -rare varients rather than actual common production examples maybe...

Reply author: JLKwilinski
Replied on: 11/25/2005 4:00:31 PM
Message:
Hi Guys,
I have never seen a Jinsen that had the crest, for sale at a show or shop. Even this one has been ground.
JLK
http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9294&stc=1&d=1191715691
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http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9295&stc=1&d=1191715691
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Reply author: davef
Replied on: 11/25/2005 4:04:16 PM
Message:
Hey thats a cute one.More details ,Please!!!!

Reply author: JLKwilinski
Replied on: 11/25/2005 4:42:26 PM
Message:
davef,
Its one of two seen at Illinois shows about thirty years ago. I got this one for $15.00. The other was being sold for $35.00 and I thought it was to much and didn't buy it. It was on a Nagoya T38 stock but had a full handguard and an un altered two screw front band. I think the serials were about 100 different. I just thought I would throw it in to see what would happen.
JLKwilinski

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 11/25/2005 4:45:49 PM
Message:
Dave, I think the Jinsen carbine doesn't fit in with this topic of scarce series/variations. I've never heard of any collector ever owning one much less seeing one in the flesh. For me they're more a post war Chinese modification. Even if one could prove them to exist during the war they'd fit more into the no series/serial number oddity list. The carbine in the photo looks to be built on a type 97 sniper (note sling swivel on bottom not side & inlet for scope block!)stock that's been cut done maybe by the Chinese or by bubba.

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 11/25/2005 5:14:51 PM
Message:
I saw an extreme stubby jin carbine, tho it could have been a repro..since I dont have enough knowledge of the variation to say .It looked good enough to be real to me tho,and the owner had a lot of extremely rare rifles and pistols,NCT 19 carbines and type hamada pistols for instance.So ILL belive it to be true till somebody who would know tells me Im a fool.,,, the one JLK posted looked like a chinese short rifle to me also thats why I asked for details ,it is very cute and would look great with a repro mount and scope...I agree maybe the carbines belong in the oddity group tho...Dave

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 11/25/2005 5:34:49 PM
Message:
I'd only believe a Jinsen carbine that's either unnumbered or an extremely high serial number. As for JLK's photo...even if it weren't a 97 stock & it was a 38 stock then at least the wood should Jinsen proofed. I'd love to see one or hear of anyone who owns a legit example.

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 11/25/2005 5:43:52 PM
Message:
Hmmm...I may have left the door open to be slammed very hard for a foolish belief.....I was just considering that my extremely knowledgable expert that assured me it was genuine and whom I belive everything he tells me about japanese weapons ( not the carbines owner)..is overly obcessed with chickens and spent the last portion of the evening trying to bully the translator into conjugating "Im a slutty butterfly " into japanese...but I look good with egg on my face....Im still comfortable with the one I saw having been a true example.


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