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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Time to rethink an old "fact"


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Topic author: monkeyboy
Subject: Time to rethink an old "fact"
Posted on: 08/06/2007 5:58:31 PM
Message:
I'm surprised no one's comented on this auction. It's a Mukden mg mag pouch. That in and of itself is cool...but notice the inked inspection stamps on the inside of the flap, in particular the triangle. It's been said the triangle represents the use of subsitute materials such as rubberized canvas.

Clearly the flap is leather and I don't see any subsitute materials used in the pouches construction. So I suppose we're left with two options....rethink the triangle= subsitute material or figure Mukden didn't get the memo on how to use the triangle mark
.


Replies:

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 08/06/2007 7:42:29 PM
Message:
I'm not well versed on MG pouches but was there ever an early, all leather variation? If so then the triangle mark might still mean "subsitute materials". Triangle might also just simply be a contractors mark OR might have a tie in to the triangle mark associated with Nagoya Triangle bayonet mark?

Reply author: monkeyboy
Replied on: 08/06/2007 7:55:26 PM
Message:



quote: Originally posted by Jareth

I'm not well versed on MG pouches but was there ever an early, all leather variation? If so then the triangle mark might still mean "subsitute materials". Triangle might also just simply be a contractors mark OR might have a tie in to the triangle mark associated with Nagoya Triangle bayonet mark?

Hummm...good thinking, yes perhaps there were all leather pouches. It's not my thing, and I've never seen or heard of one but you might be on to something.

But I doubt very much the the triangle has, in this case, anything to do with the bayonet manufacturer. Jon

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 08/06/2007 8:18:20 PM
Message:
Jon, has anyone ever found a conclusive attribution for the triangle bayonet subcontractor?

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/06/2007 8:23:45 PM
Message:
I agree with jareth. The triangle is there most likely because of the canvas body material being the substitute (Dai-yo-hin) part.


Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/06/2007 8:32:51 PM
Message:
One school of thought is that the Nagoya Triangle is Riken Kozai, which is the same maker of the the Nagoya Diamond. For some reason Riken had to change the logo part way in the 48th series from triangle to diamond. This may or may not be true since the 48th series has a jumble of various makers, but it does seem that the Triangle covers mostly early hooked guard variations and Diamond seems to take over from there and covers hooked and straight guards.


Reply author: Mike Rockhill
Replied on: 08/06/2007 9:17:30 PM
Message:
I am not sure I would say canvas was considered an inferior material,as not only was it used in 99 ans 96 mag pouches (for all I know they are the same) but also knee mortar ammo poches and type 11 pouches which can be seen in pictures dating from the early 30's. It was a good thought But considering all the other canvas pouches I don't think that is it. It could be that the triangle (which I also thought meant captured equipment), may have multiple meanings , just like the small circles on rifles. They go from being supposedly a required first class mark on bolt and receiver of a large portion of type 38 production, to meaning special wartime inspection on later type 99 rifles. Considering that we are talking about a nation that decided to field no less than 5 different machine gun/rifle cartridges at the same time, is it too much to think that they may not have been able to standardize a simple triangle inseption/acceptance mark?


Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/07/2007 01:16:14 AM
Message:
Mike, it's not that canvas is defined as "inferior" material compared to leather, but for any reason such as tropical tolerance and hence "new" or substitute" material (dai-yo-hin), especially canvas or hardened canvas was used on pouches, cases, and it's straps where the original material spec was leather, there seems to be a triangle mark alongwith the make/year mark. This holds true with most of the optics cases too ie.binoculars, rifle scopes, and so far have not seen any triangle marks on early leather cases, but most all hardened canvas cases have the triangle marking. Since all issued items including the cases had the material specified on it's initial approval specs, and most of the cases initially were leather, I am pretty certain that there needed to be a special marking to denote that the used material was different from the original issue spec, and this happened to be the triangle mark.
The other triangle marks as you note (captured rifles, etc) are just different use of the triangle, and has a totally different meaning as the canvas and hardened canvas cases and it's straps.


 
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