Gunboards Forums banner

1 - 1 of 1 Posts

·
Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
15,572 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Japanese considered ZB-26 inferior and inaccurate Forum Locked
Printer Friendly

Author Topic
Firearms
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
511 Posts
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 9:08:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote: "Everyone I talked with in Japan had little respect for the ZB-26. Funny stories told by the Japanese included one where they were fired on by Chinese mg's, and when they realized ZB-26's were being used, everyone was hollaring around, "Czecho, Czecho!" Then, the Japanese went on about their business, ignoring the firing coming their way. The Japanese considered the weapon inferior and inaccurate. Don't ask me why they used the ZB configuration in the Type 97 tank mg. Probably beaucracy. Anyway, the corner locking of the bolt on the ZB-26 makes the ZB pretty inaccurate according to the Japanese. I don't know whether that was improved in the ZB-30 or not. I just do not know these firearms well."

original post:
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=221914




Capt Zorro
Gunboards Moderator



USA
1029 Posts
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 9:30:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's probably the same there as it is here. If it's not made by us it can't be as good. Usually war stories are like fine wine, as they age they get better....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adios Amigos,



Mongo63A
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
112 Posts
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 9:32:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mine seems to be very accurate. I can put 3 round burst of the 300 yrd steel plate all day long. But perception is not always truth. I agree, you will not get sniper accuracy with the rear tilting locking bolt guns but for an LMG it is plenty accurate. BTW ZB30 has same method of bolt lock up, just slightly different mechanism for achieving it.


MGMike
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1445 Posts
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 12:18:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote: " I just do not know these firearms well."

True.





Firearms
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
511 Posts
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 12:37:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nov 14, 1938's issue of LIFE magazine had a photo essay. The topic was advancing Japanese troops in China. An IJA office and a solider were in a small road trying to find out the direction. A LMG burst killed both in a pool of blood. Although it didn¡¯t say what LMG it was (the photographer was with IJA), it was most likely a ZB-26.
There was a Japanese war dairy published in recent year:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/東史郎
In his book, he told stories about the horrifying sound of ¡°Czech Gun¡± starting in Shanghai. He was a foot soldier.
I don¡¯t understand the motivation of the above Japanese made that statement. My experience of ZB was also very accurate. (At least one guy in the range commented ¡°This is like a sniper gun¡± after he shot it.) There was never any Chinese soldier had any complaint about ZB. There were plenty of Japanese accounts of its accuracy and deadly power.
The only thing I can think of is that the person was never in combat but heard some BS and that was how he formed his opinion.



John Sukey
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
9613 Posts
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 09:11:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently the Whermacht didn't share the japs opinion as they used LOTS of ZB's
Since the BREN is a variant of the ZB it has sometimes been criticized as being TOO ACCURATE.(for a lmg)
But then the japs have been noted for their arrogance.


Coup par coup
Gunboards Member



36 Posts
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 9:14:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's usually the shooter not the weapon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the average Chinese soldier was held in high regard during that time period.


Firearms
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
511 Posts
Posted - 04/26/2007 : 12:08:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regardless of the average soldier's ability, LMG gunners were always season ones for they were the most expensive - and powerful, equipment in an infantry company.


csm1005
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1082 Posts
Posted - 04/26/2007 : 4:35:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What do these Japs know? They mess with the wrong people in WWII. ZB-26s were inferior and inaccurate? It was accurate enough to kill Japs.


Buck
Gunboards Super Premium Member



350 Posts
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 12:10:21 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every major power had at least one gun I'd love to have...except Japan.


MGMike
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1445 Posts
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 4:59:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Japanese Type 96 and 99 LMGs were NOT second-rate weapons. American troops had a lot of respect for them. A veteran of the fighting in New Guinea and the Phillippines told me that his unit would gather them up to reinforce their line if enough ammunition could be found.


bmg17a1
Gunboards Member



USA
91 Posts
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 5:47:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The US Army psych guys were very insistent on helping "morale" within the front line units by supplying morale building movies depicting various authorities discussng the enemies' small arms effectiveness. Pure propaganda to reduce fear and stress......Having been born in '43 and later getting to know various GIs in my neighborhood who had served in the Pacific, I recall one telling me that they were advised by the psych guys that the Japs had a .25 caliber rifle that was nothng to worry about. It was described as similar to getting hit with a BB!! Apparently the European theater GIs were told that the MG42 was junk and also not to be feared!! The GIs found out otherwise very quickly.
As a longtime fan of the Japanese MGs of all types, and owning and shooting a good variety of them, I have found them to be exceptional in quality, design, accuracy and ease of maintainance. To be sure some of them, such as the VERY heavy .30 cal T92 HMG, are overbuilt and had obsolete feed systems for the day, But the T92 is incredibly accurate.
A factor contributing to the ineffectiveness of the average Jap, was their widespread poor eyesight, apparently partly a result of poor diet among other things, but not widely corrected with the ususla glasses. This led many to incorrect believe that the small arms they used were of poor qualilty and accuracy. Eventually, no doubt, the truth of the quality of their MGs was revealed. Anyone who claims that Jap MGs during WWII were junk know nothing about them, and are mer ely parroting the erroneous myths of the war and post war period. MG chauvinism at ist worst..... Bob Naess


MGMike
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1445 Posts
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 10:06:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is also a mistake to blindly accept the notion that the Types 38 and 99 Arisaka rifles were inferior weapons. The '03 Springfields carried by the Marines who landed on Guadalcanal in 1942 were not notably superior to the Japanese rifles. For jungle fighting the Arisaka made more sense; it had bigger, bolder sights visible in poor light (which the '03 did not); a breech cover and drainage holes in the stock to handle the rain (which the '03 did not), a chrome bore and bolt face, plus parabolic rifling, to prevent rust in the tropical climate (which the '03 did not), and upper and lower tangs to prevent stock breakage (which the '03 did not). In addition, it had a much faster safety. The Springfield's main advantage was that it was shorter and handier, and bolt manipulation was faster due to the turned-down handle. The rest was superfluous: Camp Perry precision was not a requirement in the jungle.

The T96 and 99 LMGs were in many respects superior to the BAR. The top-fed magazine got the gunner closer to the ground, and allowed a magazine with greater capacity, and faster to change. Their reliability was second to none, and they could be fully stripped and cleaned very easily and broken parts quickly replaced. The bore and gas piston head were chrome-plated (U.S. Ordnance? Hello, Hello?) The bipod was sturdy and far better than the BAR's (which was so clumsy that many BAR men threw it away). The Japanese guns were so accurate that they were usefully fitted with an excellent scope; nobody dreamed of scoping a BAR. On the Types 96 and 99, a cooked barrel could be changed by the No.2 (though I don't know if Japanese infantry routinely carried spare barrels like the Germans did); however, the BAR barrel was fixed, and once an overheated BAR seized up, it was out of the fight. Japanese propellant powder produced substantially less flash at night, and did not so readily give away their positions.

The problem with the Japanese guns was that after the war began, small arms development largely stagnated. The failure to develop and issue a semi-auto rifle that could match the M1 Garand meant that the individual Japanese soldier was handicapped.





kb0uxv
Gunboards Member



USA
99 Posts
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 4:55:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone ever shot a Type 99 LMG and a ZB-26? I wonder what one is more accurate with the same gunner.


BoltGun
Gunboards Member



59 Posts
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 10:37:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote: "when they realized ZB-26's were being used, everyone was hollaring around, "Czecho, Czecho!" Then, the Japanese went on about their business, ignoring the firing coming their way."

LMAO. I don't think Japanese were that dumb. Pure BS and logically unsound. I definitely won't go on about my business, if somebody shooting full auto at me; even it's a sling shot.


Quote: “I just do not know these firearms well."

True. +1




MGMike
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1445 Posts
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 11:05:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kb0uxv

Anyone ever shot a Type 99 LMG and a ZB-26? I wonder what one is more accurate with the same gunner.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Beyond a certain practical point, "accuracy" in an LMG is purely academic. Neither the ZB26 nor the T99 is a sniper rifle. They were designed to blanket a man-sized target with a short burst, without wasting ammunition. Both are plenty accurate enough to fulfill that role and satisfy any trained gunner.

However, the T99 had a definite advantage at night, as it has luminous inserts in the front and rear sights that glowed in the dark like a military watch dial. Possibly the first LMG ever to be so equipped.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - MGMike on 05/01/2007 11:06:46 AM


John Sukey
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
9613 Posts
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 8:49:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the other hand, the jap pistols, and their attempt at a sub-machine gun are best forgotten.


Type 96 LMG
Gunboards Member



48 Posts
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 10:42:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"However, the T99 had a definite advantage at night, as it has luminous inserts in the front and rear sights that glowed in the dark like a military watch dial. Possibly the first LMG ever to be so equipped."

Actually, the 6.5mm T96 had a phosphorescent insert in the front sight; preceeding the later 7.7mm T99. While the insert was present in both early and later models T96's, this feature was definitely done away with in later (mid 1944) T99's and may have been lacking in the T99 series as a whole (T99 owners please feel free to chime in here with data points). If there was phosphorescent material in the rear sight, I'm not sure where it was placed.

As far as accuracy, while an optically equipped T99 may allow for more precise (initial) shot placement, I suspect the ZB was inherently more accurate given the barrel locking interface. The multiple lug surfaces on the ZB barrel vs. the single wedge adjustment on T99 barrel may make for a more rigid, and accurate, combination. This is just my hypothesis without any side by side testing.

Type 96 LMG


tribrothers
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1000 Posts
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 11:18:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Mongo we can get my 96 and your zb26 together and test them out. Better yet we find someone near by that has a 99 and a BAR and have real fun.
Tribrothers


Mongo63A
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
112 Posts
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 11:45:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by tribrothers

Hey Mongo we can get my 96 and your zb26 together and test them out. Better yet we find someone near by that has a 99 and a BAR and have real fun.
Tribrothers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well, some of the guns that I want together that are owned by people that I shoot with have a Bren, BAR, FN FAL HB, Stoner (in Bren config), and M16A2 OBLMG. A 96 would round out the mag fed LMGs as well as your Ultimax?


bmg17a1
Gunboards Member



USA
91 Posts
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 11:50:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: luminous sights/stuff

The T99s had the same style luminous sight locators as did the T96. The rear sight had a windage readout window and just above that was a small concave dot filled with luminous paint, faintly green in natural light. The 96 has a vertical slot in the backside of the sight blade, about 1/8" long or so. The T99 has the same vertical slot but it is longer, maybe 1/4". Some of these used a small glass tube filled with luminous paint and impressed into the slot in the sight blade.
I restored one of the sets of sights on a T99 many years go with phosphorescent paint and played with sighting the gun on a moonless summer night. After while, of course, it is not really possible to distinguish the sights any longer as the luminosity has faded. The adaptation of the eye to darkness is quite amazing, though, although one sees a lot of ghost light of various sorts within the eye as the brain tries to "see" in the dark. On a night with some moonlight it is possible for the luminous sights to absorb some light and glow, but it seems a fragile tool to depend on.

The accuarcy of any MG is also function of the experience of the shooter and his ability to adapt the gun and sights to targetting a wide variety of targets in all sorts of conditions. Anyone who has shot thousands of rounds in a .22 rifle, or even a BB gun, knows that one becomes extremely versatile and refelxive, instinctively using the sights or not depending on the target and other factors. It is possible to become extremely accurate with lots of experience. I have no doubt that any soldier would become very expert with his rifle or MG and be able to instinctively place his shots regardless of the sights or optics after months of combat and handling of the firearm. Often the discussions of MG accuracy completley ignore the experience factor and the learning curve with the use of the MG, and focus entirely on the mechanical aspects of the firearm and its inherent accuracy or lack thereof. After all the MG is a tool, and with experience, learned manipulation of the MG to gain the best results will achieve a very high level of accuracy. FWIW


Firearms
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
511 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 1:18:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was in college, I spent a summer staying in a military personnel lodging facility in Taiwan (long story), there was a caretaker who fought in the war against Japan.
We got to talk and he was a ZB-26 gunner. He’s got nothing but praise for it.
His only reserve was the ammunition, he said that sometimes the ammo didn’t chamber well and it would result in a stoppage. His solution was that he would fit every cartridge available to the gun between combats and only kept the ones fitted. He never had any problem.
He survived the war against Japan and the civil war against communists and lived to tell tales to us kids.
There is something to be said about Chinese ZB-26 gunners and seasoned soldiers.
There were 500K to 1,000K Japanese soldiers killed in China mainland during the war, depending on who you talk to. Since China basically had no Air Forces, Navy, Tanks and very few Artillery pieces, most of the Japanese casualties were resulted from small arms fire. I’ll like to think that LMG and HMG were responsible for a very large part of it.



WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 3:21:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anybody seen photos of the Japanese using ZB 26s? I raise the point because I know of a Chinese-marked ZB 26 brought home as a trophy by a Marine; I doubt he got it from the Chinese...


CW
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2370 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 4:48:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WaPrüf2

Anybody seen photos of the Japanese using ZB 26s? I raise the point because I know of a Chinese-marked ZB 26 brought home as a trophy by a Marine; I doubt he got it from the Chinese...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes, I can recall at least two photos from somewhere. I'll see if I can find them soon and will post back.


JoeB
Starting Member



7 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 5:11:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WaPr?2

Anybody seen photos of the Japanese using ZB 26s? I raise the point because I know of a Chinese-marked ZB 26 brought home as a trophy by a Marine; I doubt he got it from the Chinese...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Japanese bought some from ZB as well as capturing them. Here's a page partly Czech but partly English with some info:
http://www.guns-info.cz/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=31

See recent Gunboards thread as to whether the Japanese produced the ZB 26 in 6.5mm in captured arsenals in China. There is at least one surviving example of a 6.5mm ZB 26 marked as produced at Mukden Arsenal (Japanese controlled Manchuria) serial No 1001. But the consensus on that thread was that it was probably only a prototype.

This page, in Japanese, has several photo's, about 90% of the way down, of IJA with (presumably regular 7.92mm) ZB 26's. Here are the photo's and rough translation/commentary on the captions (any mistakes my fault), plus the narrative section at the bottom. The tone of this site is quite positive toward the ZB 26.
http://cb1198f.web.infoseek.co.jp/collection_1c.htm

Caption doesn¡¯t say much but this photo was also posted on Axis History Forum, said there to be dated 1937. They appear to be IJA by the hats, helmet of guy in row behind, and uniforms. The third guy from the camera seems to be carrying an FN-made BAR, also known to have been used by the Japanese.

Members of a volunteer unit of residents of Fengtai (district of Beijing where the Marco Polo Bridge is located) just after the start of the ¡°China Incident¡± (Sino Japanese War of 1937-45); presumably Japanese residents of China (the area was controlled by Japan even before the war). It speculates another guy has a Kar 98K; I can¡¯t make that out, but the Japanese did use the Vz24 in some units, pretty much the same thing.

Corporal Torizo(?) Narita, 11th Company 17th Regiment (8th Division, of the Kwantung Army), killed in operations in Rehe (aka Jehol) Province (which the Japanese added to Manchukuo), March 1933.

ZB 26 participates on the battlefields of the China Incident

ZB 26 and the Japanese soldier: good

Sleeping, ZB 26 at his side, only barrel visible

There¡¯s a photo of a Chinese ZB 26 team, then this one of a Japanese soldier without caption
Narrative section at the bottom, paraphrase highlights: Squads equipped with ZB 26¡¯s had mixed caliber ammo, 6.5mm for their Type 38 rifles, 7.92mm for their LMG. However, the Model 11 6.5mm LMG didn¡¯t fire exactly the same ammo anyway but reduced charge rounds. Full charge rounds could cause stoppages in the Model 11, and reduced charge ones weaker performance in the already none-too powerful Type 38. Then the 7.7mm cartridge of the Type 92 HMG was again not the same as the standard infantry cartridge of the caliber later adopted. And the Model 11, so it says, was less reliable than the ZB 26; still, the outright mixed caliber situation was judged not acceptable. (even Japanese puppet armies, Manchukuo Army and puppet armies in China proper, generally seemed to receive Model 11¡¯s as their LMG¡¯s eventually, from photo¡¯s in Jowett¡¯s ¡°Rays of the Rising Sun Vol 1¡±).

Joe





bmg17a1
Gunboards Member



USA
91 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 6:55:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure enjoyed the pics of the various IJA soldiers and units with ZBs and other LMGs. Quite a history lesson there.
Comment at the end of the picture string about the T11 LMG using reduced loads is untrue. This must be the result of confusion between the trainer LMGs used by the Japs that were in 6.5, and did use a reduced load cartridge, and the standard 6.5 rifle round. The T11 functions perfectly with standard 6.5 loads, either vintage or new manufacture. With a slight lube on the rounds as they are loaded into the hopper, the oiler does not need to be used. Further, the gun HAS an oiler, so a reduced load makes even less sense.
Also, having fired thousands of semi-rimmed 7.7 through various T92 HMGs, as wll as the rimless in T99s, etc. I can discern no difference between the rounds for one and the other. I don't know where the idea that there were different 7.7 loads came from, but I have not experienced any difference, and can't imagine why there would be. The incredibly inefficient and confusing mix of calibers, as well as duplicate model IDs, between the small arms of one branch of Jap forces and others certainly doesn't need further confusion with lighter and heavier 7.7 loads! FWIW Bob Naess


WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 8:24:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Captured ZB referenced is Chinese; 7,9x57 and Nationalist sun insignia on receiver. Unfortunately the Marine who brought it home is long gone so I can't ask him where/how he got it...


JoeB
Starting Member



7 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 10:45:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WaPr?2

Captured ZB referenced is Chinese; 7,9x57 and Nationalist sun insignia on receiver. Unfortunately the Marine who brought it home is long gone so I can't ask him where/how he got it...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I guess the three possiblities are:
-captured from Japanese unit using them in the Pacific War which is said to have happened with some other captured Chinese automatic weapons.
-he was stationed in China postwar and picked it up there; Marine units went there to accept Japanese surrender and keep order
-captured in Korea, where it was used pretty extensively by the Chinese early in their intervention.

Re: bmg17a1, on the websites accounts of cartridges, since I'm just reporting what it says, I should clarify. In case of 7.7 it's just saying they were different as in rimless and semi rimmed, not differently loaded. In 6.5 case it definitely says differently loaded, and also says Type 11's firing the full power rounds were known as "single shot machine guns" they had so many stoppages. This is referring I assume to the 1930's. Perhaps some of the specific engineering of cartridge or weapon changed slightly v the example you're personally familiar with? Or maybe this website is wrong. Just because it's in Japanese doesn't mean it's right about Japanese arms. It doesn't give any specific sources.

The US "Handbook on Japanese Military Forces" 1945, also says that, reduced power 6.5 rounds were generally used in the Type 11, but that book has a number of other errors. And again I'm just relating what it says.

Joe

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - JoeB on 05/03/2007 10:49:38 PM


WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 12:21:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Korean War and China postwar out; shipped stateside 1944.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - WaPrüf2 on 05/04/2007 12:22:45 AM


MGMike
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1445 Posts
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 09:16:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe B: Thank you for posting these VERY fascinating photos. I had no idea the ZB26 was used by the Japanese so extensively as these pictures suggest. Given the relative merits of the ZB26 vs. the Type 11, it should not be surprising that Japanese units impressed into service as many as they could capture.

The presence of the FN M30 mixed in the same unit as ZB26s suggests that these acquisitions were extemporaneous, not a plan of the official supply system. The picture was obviously posed, as the soldiers are all smiling for the camera and the one with the FN30 is holding its magazine in one hand; clearly they weren't intending to march very far. One suspects the photo was taken primarily to show off the trophies.

I owned one of these FN guns briefly; it was in 7.92mm and had ideographs on the top of the receiver which at the time I thought were Chinese. More probably they were Kanji. Unfortunately I did not have them translated while I had it.

The fellow with the ZB26 posing in the hip-shooting position obviously had never fired the gun that way, or he would not be standing thus with his CG to the rear. While it is quite feasible to fire the ZB26 on the move while holding the folded bipod in the supporting hand, one had better be leaning well into it, not standing comfortably erect at the top of a mound...

M




bmg17a1
Gunboards Member



USA
91 Posts
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 12:23:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: 6.5 reduced load and 7.7 and more blather

Sorry to misunderstand about the 7.7 as a reduced load. Mixed it up with the comment about the 6.5.
There are many, many errors in many different publications on MGs from pre-WWII up to the present, most often repeated due to the "authority" of the authors. Availability of MGs for evaluation was always a problem, as was testing of the guns as well as familiarity with the accessories. IMO most of the errors are the result of not having access to particular MGs, parts accessories or testing, and varfious authors just reiterated what had been written before or anecdotal evidence they had been told. Most of the misinformatioin and myth errors have been perpetuated due to this, but fortunatley the continue to be exposed over the years with the extensive shooting, maintainance, familiarity and research done by the NFA community.
One interesting such "myth", relevant to Jap MGs, repeated over and over, is attributed by various authors to the weight of a loaded stripper. The T92 had a "reputation" noted by the Pacific combat soldiers as starting to fire slowly and then speeding up, and the moniker "woodpecker" was applied to these guns. This was always of interest to me since I could not understand why an MG would slowly speed up, and I was curious until I acquired my first T92 many years ago. I have 4 T92s and have fired all of them a lot in several calibers, and at no time did they ever start slowly and speed up. However, anyone who has fired vintage 7.7 ammo in the T92 or any other gun knows how ferociously corrosive that ammo is. In VT, a relatively moist climate in summer, after firing ten or fifteen strippers in a T92 of vintage 7.7, if the parts that are heavily exposed to combusiton gases are not stipped and cleaned off in water or a corrosive ammo solvent, within several hours they would have a light crust of rust on the exterior. The first time I fired the 7.7 vintage ammo, I left the T92 for about two hours, action open, and when I returned to shoot some more, the bolt would not go fully into battery, and was quite stiff against efforts to recock it. On strippping it, the forward end of the firing pin had rusted in the bolt. Since the firing pin is mechaniclaly connected to the movement of the bolt and the bolt carrier, the gun was almost frozen. Return to the Pacific and use of the 7.7 rounds in combat over many months. Keeping a T92 clean would be a full time job against the intensely corrosive ammo. I would say it is a good bet that heavily used and poorly cleaned T92s, on the verge of freezing due to corrosion in firing pin and gas tube, would be quite sluggish initially on firing, speeding up as resistance decreased and the guns heated up. IMO and from my experience with these guns fouling is the reason the T92s had a variable rpm from initial firing. It would follow that all Jap small arms suffered from corrosion fouling from the ammo if not well cleaned, and this aspect might also have contributed to opinions of their reliability, etc.What a chore it must have been to keep weapons clean and rust free in the Pacific climate for all soldiers!
There are some other amusing aspects relative to the vintage 7.7, but enough for now.
Firing a cleaned and lubed T92 reveals that there is no initial slower firing with acceleration towards the end of the stripper. If there was some mechanical reason for the T92 to start slowly and speed up due to the strip feed, this should also occur in the other strip fed MGs, 1909 Benets, 1909 Hotchkiss LMG, any Hotchkiss HMG, etc, but that is not the case with these MGs either. FWIW Bob Naess


Part of the error by the WWII psych guys had was due to the misinformation about the 6.5 round, which was, no doubt, influenced by the 6.5 reduced loads used in the wide variety of types of trainer MGs used by the Japs. They believed that the 6.5 was a very minor round.
Having fired four or five different T11s over the years mostly using vintage 6.5 ammo, there is no question in my mind that these guns are excellent LMGs, very reliable, and would never require a reduced load. If a T11 would need a reduced load, why would not a T96? Consider also that they have a gas regulator and an oiler. Neither of these would be especially needed on an MG that used a reduced load, particularly a round with the case shape of the 6.5.
The trainers were a very different story, however, very lightly built of questionable quality and materials, and had neither regulator nor oiler. Reduced loads would be very sensible in these guns, and for other reasons as well.
The T11s are certainly very much less user friendly than a ZB, etc, but they use the identical mechanical design of the T3/92s and several other MGs, except smaller in scale. This is an excellent design, veyr sturdy and reliable, but definitely subject to problems with use of corrosive ammo without cleaning!



tribrothers
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1000 Posts
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 1:07:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob,
I have a 1938 type 96 that I am trying to learn more about. I have read that they used a reduced load, but looking at their construction, they seemed heavily built. In your last post, do you mean that the type96 has an oiler, or that the rounds need to be oiled? I looked a type 11 at the Dallas Market Hall gunshow last Saturday. They are an interesting weapon with an different look to them.
I am the customer in Texas that ordered the 7.62x54r conversion and extra barrel for the Maxim 08/15. Is there any surplus ammo that is better or worse for these? I have brass Bulgy light, Russian copper wash heavy, Hungarian heavy and brass Albanian.
Tribrothers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - tribrothers on 05/04/2007 1:09:02 PM


MGMike
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1445 Posts
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 1:12:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob: What was your impression of the quality, overall, of the Japanese brass? I never had enough of it to form an opinion.

I did find that good German 7x57mm cartridges ran though a Type 3 (Chilean Modelo 1920) very nicely, without any need for lubrication. Indeed, it did not appear that the Chileans ever bothered to fill the oilers.

M




Firearms
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
511 Posts
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 1:37:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a Chinese vetran soldier doing the Rambo style shooting. He's from the 1st Honor Division - meaning that he was wounded and returned to services.

From an article I wrote few years back.
http://www.chinesefirearms.com/30206/articles/zb.htm
BTW, Fengtai is a district of Tianjin-several hours away from Beijing. Japanese and several other powers had strong presence there as a result of the post Boxer rebellion treaty.




bmg17a1
Gunboards Member



USA
91 Posts
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 5:47:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: T96 LMGs and oilers, vintage 7.7 brass, etc.

Sorry for the poor syntax in my post. I did not mean to imply that the T96 had an oiler. I was referencing the T11 as having an oiler and a regulator, as persuasion against the need of a reduced load 6.5. The components of the T11 action are just about the same weight and size as those of the T96, although it is a copy of the T3/92 design, and the T96 does not use an oiler. I wonder why, then, would a T11 need reuced power rounds? Of course, T96s do not have oilers, but I have heard of, but never seen, a T96 mag loader that has an oiler to lightly lube the rounds. Same with some of the T99 loaders. However, I have never experienced a stuck case in a T99 or 96, and this includes both types of guns fired in their original calibers as well as both guns converted to .308 and 7.62X39 and even one converted to a wildcat cartridge. My supposition is that the oilers on the loaders were to keep the cases from oxidizing rather than for case extraction, but it could just be a lingering design device that was never questioned thoroughly. The action of both these guns is delayed just as in many other LMGs so lubing the cases for extraction does not make any sense to me. The T92 has an oiler, but I only used it when I first acquired one of the guns to see it work, but never used it after that, and mostly firing the vintage 7.7 Jap stripper loader ammo. As an example of an MG that does need an oiler, take the Schwarzlose. It will not run without the oiler, period. The oiler is quite efficient and reliable, but is absolutely necessary. but, there is no delay in the opening of the breech in this gun as it does not fire from a locked breech so pressures are high on opening. As an aside, one of the errors put forward by a well known MG book author who is no longer with us, is that oiling the rounds was to assist in forcing the cartridge into the chamber! Must have been a late Friday night!

In response to MG Mike's quesiton abut vintage Jap brass, in my experience the 7.7 is very brittle. Many years ago a quantity of Chinese made 7.7 semi-rimmed came into the cuntry, but it was dangerous and detonated, blowing ot the extractors in T92s. It got a bad reputation quickly. The next bathc that came in was Jap wartime production, which is quite good, but case ruptures at the base sidewall are fairly frequent. I thought this was a problem with ageing, but having seen anumber of cmbat and training films of the Japs firing the T92s, it was clear from the little bursts of gas from the breech area of the guns that they were haivng blown case walls, too. It is annoying, but not dangerous.
The vintage Jap 6.5 brass seemed less brittle and did not suffer from the blowouts that happened with the 7.7 semi-rimmmed used in the T92s.Agan, the Chinese made 6.5 was prne to detonations from decay of the powder, which was nitro based and deteriorated over time. If you collect ammo, Mike, I have some 6.5 Jap that youi can have some examples of if you like.
As for firng the T3 in 7mm, I also have several sets of T3 parts that came into the US some years ago, and I have a T92 set up in 7mm. It is very nice to shoot. 7.92 is also a great conversion for these guns, but the barrels have to be made up, or vintage shot out barrels sleeved. FWIW Bob Naess



MGMike
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1445 Posts
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 6:22:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob: I do appreciate your offer of 6.5 samples, but I'm not a collector and I have enough for reference. If I were going to shoot 6.5mm today, the only sensible choice would be the new Privi Partizan.

I was asking about the Japanese brass mainly because it seems to me that with good quality ammunition, none of those guns really needs lubricated cartridges. As you have pointed out, all of them have primary extraction, and seem to work quite well without oil. But that is without taking into account either soft or brittle brass. In the case of the Hotchkiss-action types, the oiling may have been just added insurance against stoppages. The Japanese gun crew that got a cartridge or case caught inside the receiver of a Type 3 in combat was in deep, deep trouble.

The Chilean 7mm gun has plenty of reserve power to run if the brass will endure it. A bigger problem is the tendency of the feed strips to become deformed; I've heard of a tool through which used strips could be run to quickly and precisely re-align the teeth, but I've never seen one.


Edmond
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



France
635 Posts
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 09:23:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had the pleasure to shoot two mags with a ZB 26, it is very close to the french 24/29 in terms of accurary, short bursts producing A4 size groups @ 200 meters were easy to get.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From .177 airguns to .50 BMG http://www.dcbshooting.com


MGMike
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1445 Posts
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 8:38:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Without putting too fine a point on it, and not wishing to offend anyone's national pride or favorite gun, please allow me nonetheless to announce from the vantage of considerable experience with both, that the French 24/29 is not a pimple on a ZB-26's buttplate.

There, I've said it. Apologies in advance. M






quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Edmond

I had the pleasure to shoot two mags with a ZB 26, it is very close to the french 24/29 in terms of accurary, short bursts producing A4 size groups @ 200 meters were easy to get.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - MGMike on 05/22/2007 8:40:05 PM


Comrade Antibiotika
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
154 Posts
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 03:54:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment at the end of the picture string about the T11 LMG using reduced loads is untrue. This must be the result of confusion between the trainer LMGs used by the Japs that were in 6.5, and did use a reduced load cartridge, and the standard 6.5 rifle round. The T11 functions perfectly with standard 6.5 loads, either vintage or new manufacture. With a slight lube on the rounds as they are loaded into the hopper, the oiler does not need to be used. Further, the gun HAS an oiler, so a reduced load makes even less sense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



According to the Illustrated book of guns I have, the type 11 did have a reduced charge cartridge, but not for the reasons everyone is thinking of. The gun would work with both full and reduced power cartridges.

Early actions with the type 11 demonstrated the open hopper drew in alot of dirt and other debris. This large amount of stuff being pushed through the action tended to wear the gun down quickly. It says nothing about reliability issues. Therefore, a reduced charge round was introduced to reduce wear on the gun. There is nothing mentioned about changing model numbers to indicate that the gun could or could not use a certrain cartridge: It sounds like the load was simply lightened so it wouldn't wear the gun down as much, but soldiers in the field likely would load whatever ammo they had on hand. This single shot gun myth may come from the same root as the woodpecker gun.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When money speaks, the truth is silent." Russian Proverb

Working with guns finally made me understand why my father always said you never get something for free: You always pay in money, time or suffering.


MGMike
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1445 Posts
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 07:11:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The illustrated Book of Guns, and similar coffee-table tomes, are filled with all sorts of misconceptions, and scarcely warrant refutation. While it is true that the hopper feed invites the ingestion of debris, a dirty gun requires a more powerful cartridge --not a lesser-powered one-- to ensure functioning against the additional friction caused by dirt, etc. "Wear" simply is not a factor in a gun that won't cycle.

Bob's assessment is, I think, quite correct.


Haken
Gunboards Member



21 Posts
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 12:11:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got a ZB-30 that is built from a kit into semi-auto, I can tell you it is very fun to shoot and it will even shoot turkish 8mm ammmo without problems. But it has it's problems. The gas piston will get so dirty after while that it will fail to cycle, it has grooves that are hard to clean, you basicly have to have a lots of solvent and a brass brush and it is a mess. Rear stock has a spring and rear metal but moves as a shock absorber and dirt gets on there easy. All I can say is that ZB-30 suck for warfare.


Firearms
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
511 Posts
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 12:34:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chinese never used ZB-30.
I don't know anything about the semi conversion of these guns.
However, the grooves and smaller diameter rod sections were there to prevent the exact issue you described. Also, there are holes on the piston tubes to allow excess carbon and dirt to be squeezed out of the gas cylinder – as well as the recess on the bolt and bolt carrier section.
I’ve fired hundreds of rounds in one session with 7.62x51, Turkish & Romania 8mm, Austrian blanks, 7.62x39 and when I got home, the piston rod would be covered with black carbon almost the whole way but never affected the operation. This is just a ZB-26, you have the gas port adjustment with ZB-30 and the problem should be even less critical.
Regarding the recoil springs on the butt plate, I don’t think dirt would be a critical issue in combat. In fact, on the Chinese produced guns, a lot of them eliminated this feature just to save some materials.



Topic


Forum Locked
Printer Friendly Jump To: Select Forum Private - Admin Boards Trash Can System Help - Test Boards System Help Forum Report Spam here Test Forum The Mosin Nagant Survey Forum Gunboards Trader-Classified Ads-Sponsors Boards For The Troops Gunboards Sponsors Trader - Deals - Specials Group Buy Forum Group Buy Suggestion Board The Trader - WTS and WTT listing board Want to Buy Forum Non Firearm Or Related Trader Trader - Buyer - Positive Seller Feedback Forum Trader - Buyer - Negative Seller Feedback Forum Gunshow Listings Gunboards Dot Com Discussion Boards Tuco's First Shot Reviews The Collectors Forum The Military Mauser Forum The K98 Mauser Forum The Sniper Rifle Forum AK And SKS Collector Discussion Board Military Semi Automatic Rifle Forum Military Handgun Forum Italian Firearms Forum The Czech Weapons Board Mannlicher, Steyr, & Blackpowder Cartridge Rifles Martini Henry Forum French Firearms Board Swiss Weapons Forum The Machine Gun Forum M1895 NAGANT Pistol Collector Forum The Military Rifle Competition Forum The Ammo Board Militaria-Swords-Bayonets- Edged Weapons Forum John P. Sheehan’s World War I Militaria And Arms Armor, Artillery, Warplanes, Warships, Etc. Board Military Photo Forum Winchester And Lever Action Board Commerical and Military Sporting Arms Forum CETME Rifles And More CETME And FR-8 Forum The Spanish Pistol Forum The Egyptian Firearms Forum Survival/Preparedness Sound Off/RKBA Forum The Mossberg Small Bore Forum Makarov Dot Com - The Best Mak Info The Makarov Forum Slim Tim's Makarov Trader Swedish Arms Swedish Military Firearms Forum Swedish Civilian & Sporting Firearms Japanese Collector's Boards Firearms Of The Rising Sun Japanese Trader Board Lee Enfield - 22 Caliber Forums & English Gun Pub The Lee-Enfield Forum British Gun Pub Michael Jon Littman's .22 Forum Other Boards Of Interest Michael Jon Littman's US Weapons Forum Michael Jon Littman's Modern Handguns Tennessee-Georgia Shooters Board DDR Militaria Forum And Trader Reloading Handloaders Digest The Cartridge-Ordnance Collectors Board The Gunmaker's Smoke Pole - Blackpowder Forum Win's Workbench Forum Military History Board CurrentEvents\Politics\GrumpyOldMenForum The Minefield -------------------- Home Active Topics Frequently Asked Questions Member Information Search Page

Gunboards © 2000-2006 Gunboards

Snitz Forums 2000
 
1 - 1 of 1 Posts
Top