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Thoughts on the T-30






Topic author: Ronin48
Subject: Thoughts on the T-30
Posted on: 12/19/2006 09:18:38 AM
Message:
In the 'olden days'there were quite a few 30s around. I'd estimate about 20-30% had untouched mums,50-60% overstmped mums and a few had the mums ground. Most of these overstmped rifles, judging from the condition of the stocks, better than "NRA Wretched" you find on imports. stayed in Japan and were brought home by service personnel at the end of their tour. So why only most 38s and 99s ground?

Hard to beleive someone given a pile of several hundred rifles to grind picked out the 30s and set them aside. I have a "six, five, infantry rifle," (Chines copy of the 38 with a 6, 5 and characters for Infantry and Rifle on the receiver) that had all the characters ground off. Someone just ground what he came to, so why the few ground 30s? Your ideas appreciated.​

Replies:

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/19/2006 2:25:48 PM
Message:
Just my opinion, but I think that most T-30s were gone from Japan by the beginning of WWII. I know that mine was imported from Finland in the early 1980s and the importer had a lot of them. (I wish I had purchased 20!!!!)

Frank

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 12/19/2006 3:54:03 PM
Message:
Stocks too good to be imports. Some used by Japanese, George encountered a 30 carbine on G'canal ("Shots Fired in Anger') and 03Man has two from combat or back-combat areas, one from Saipan and one from Borneo, Saipan rifle is ground, don't remember Borneo.

Assuming you are correct and most exported to Russia, then some to Finland and some to China, etc, the Finn and Chinese imports I've observed were less than 'NRA Wretched.' We encountered a small number of 30s in the mid-80s Chinese import material, they were all 'rode hard and put away wet." Probably most stripped for parts (If so, why can't I find tangs?) Anyway, an interesting question.

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 12/19/2006 6:29:58 PM
Message:
This same question not only covers T-30s, but the Muratas too. From what Ive seen, very small amount of Muratas were ground, mostly being already overstamped or the mum intact. One potential but just only "theory" is that, since the T-30s and Muratas were already "decomissioned" from any military service by WW2, perhaps they did not require the mum grinding as far as whoever made these orders (grinding orders) were concerned. Could that mean, that the grinding efforts on the post war mostly T-38 and T-99 bring-back guns were intially meant as a "decomission from the military". Simple as that ???

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 12/19/2006 8:57:51 PM
Message:
Doss forgive me for asking but are we/you sure George knew it was a type 30 not 38 carbine? I have a mint type 22 that was from the Imperial University & it's ground. I think exc. cond. examples were found in reserves at arsenals, schools & universties and then ground by occupational troops.

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 12/20/2006 12:21:28 PM
Message:
I've got one overstamp Type 30 that was brought back from Japan by a Lt. in the Army (I've got the capture papers and box the rifle was shipped back in).

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 12/20/2006 2:34:29 PM
Message:
Jareth,
Just reread the chapter on the 30 year carbine, and Col. George did know the difference. He gives a detailed description of the T30 carbine, no mistake that there was more than one found on Guadalcanal. The only minor error, what the carbine he described had the lower band on backwards, with the sling swivel on the right, he could not figure this out! Now why the T30 carbines (and some rifles) were there is the question...

Ronin,
The Saipan T30 rifle is the very early serial # 132, the mum has been scrubbed; it is nicely polished down and was refinished a long time ago. Receiver ring is definitely thinner, so it was there.
The Borneo rifle has a canceled mum, not ground, but has the second class circle placed about 3/4" ahead of the serial number on the left side of the receiver.

T30 rifle 515,187 is mummed, not canceled, too nice to have been a 'China' rifle.

T30 rifle 515,473 is ground, acquired by a swabbie from a Marine or GI from the Lingayen Gulf landing in the PI. Has the sailors initials in the stock, I got it from his son.

T30 rifle 423,922 is mummed, canceled with the Tokyo rings and is Fin marked.

T30 carbine 376,042 is mummed, canceled with Tokyo rings, to nice to have been drug through china.

T30 carbine 1,532 is mummed, canceled with Tokyo rings, also excaped chinese abuse.

Your estimate of Mum treatment pretty much holds true for the 7 T30's I have.

Perhaps these rifles and carbines were distributed in 1941-42 to local or militia(if they had such) or reserve troops in the newly occupied South Asia islands.

Very good questions!

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/20/2006 3:18:33 PM
Message:
Most of the troops initially encountered on the canal were not infantry, but construction and it would make sense that they would have older rifles like the Type 30.

Note that I said previously that "most" were gone from Japanese service - not "all". I am sure that some did continue to serve in second line units where they were captured or surrendered. This accounts for some that were ground.

I think that the best T-30s, and certainly T-35s, were the Siamese sales samples that were never used in Siam/Thailand, but put away until surplused. (Put away clean and dry!!)

Frank


Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 12/20/2006 8:50:05 PM
Message:
03Man, look at the 'circle' ahead of the serial number of your Borneo rifle and look at the muzzle, It's been cut back. Examined another 30 with a circle forward of the SN, muzzle also cut back.

On Saipan rifle, Brad Bloom bought it from vet that brought it back, sold to someone in Republic of Kalifornia who sold it to fellow I bought it from. I bought it as never having a mum. As you note, semi-professional job of hiding grind. Told seller either I'd return or I needed a price reduction, we agreeded on reduction.

In JAPANESE ORDNANCE INTELLIGENCE KOREA, Rept. No. 12, SMALL ARMS IN KOREA, 10 Dec. 1945 observed were one or more T-18s, 22 carbine and 30 rifle and carbines. Also a "Mannlicher-type 6.5-mm rifle. Five Round box magazine. (T-I!) The page of rifle photos in Nakata's 2nd edition (in the front) is from this report. The 4th rifle from the bottom, the T-38-looking rifle with the folding b'net is the '918.'

Perhaps the answer to my original question is those rifles turned in by IJA troops were gathered and ground, Most overstmped 30s were not used by military troops, were not turned in and not ground. Excellent theory, but does not explain how they escaped the grinder when brought back by returning U. S. troops unless 38s and 99s were specified in whatever 'orders' were issued (?) on grinding.

Reply author: gunsfromdad
Replied on: 12/20/2006 9:24:46 PM
Message:
Since you are talking about T30s on this thread I have a question too. I have what I think is a T30. It is my understanding that many of these were modified by the Chinese and converted to 8mm but also that the Chinese manufactured them. This one is 7.92mm and dad bought in 1974. It has no symbols designating type. It has a flower, but not a mum and the arsenal stamp is what I would call a chicken foot. I have _Military Rifles of Japan_ and I see both of these marks on a carbine which the book says is a copy of a T38.

I am going to attempt to post a picture and if any of you can tell me if this is an Arisaka T30 or a Chinese copy or a Japanese made Chinese contract I would appreciate it.

Thanks, gunsfromdad







Reply author: gunsfromdad
Replied on: 12/20/2006 9:35:58 PM
Message:
I will try that again



Download Attachment:
149.54 KB


Download Attachment:
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Download Attachment:
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Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 12/20/2006 10:44:46 PM
Message:
Believe that is termed the "North China Type 30?" I should know, I reviewed the manuscript bout two months ago, but..... (What's this subject?)

Reply author: gunsfromdad
Replied on: 12/21/2006 1:43:39 PM
Message:
"but..... (What's this subject?)"

Ronin - I am sorry I don't understand. Are you saying I got off topic and shouldn't have posted here? Did I need to start a new thread? I really would like some information on this gun.

Reply author: Kilroy was here
Replied on: 12/21/2006 4:09:25 PM
Message:
Alright, I hate to derail the topic, gentlemen, but I have a question.

What's with the T-30s with the Mum, but has the Koishikawa arsenal marking on them?

Well here, I drew this using the paint program. That's easier than me trying to describe it:



I have a type 30, non import, with this marking. Anyone help me out?


Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 12/21/2006 4:42:42 PM
Message:
Gunsfromdad- I think Ronin meanys you have a North China type 30, not a Japanese T30. You would get more info by starting a new thread.

Kilroy,
you have drawn what we a call a Mum canceled with the Tokyo rings. The cancellation was applied when the rifles were retired from Japanese Military service. Many were then sold to Britian or elsewhere.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 12/21/2006 5:45:28 PM
Message:
No, I mean I have CRS. (Can't remember s--t!) Joking about the subject, sorry fellows. All the rifles that definately went to Russia/Finland (Russians put a "U" shaped gismo on the trigger guard to keep mag. release from accidently dropping floorplate/follower into the snow or ground the release flat and Finn rifles Stamped with an "S" and four or five numbers. All have the Tokyo Arsenal overstamp. (Actually it's the Tokyo Arsenal at Koshikawa which is outside Tokyo. Originally it was the Tokyo Artillery Arsenal, but when name changed I 'disremember. Just a point of interest)

Many T-30 and 38 imports hsd the mums overstamped so, before they were initially shipped to Russia then to Finnland or China the Japanese 'cancelled' the mum.

While on mum 'cancellation' Dan King called this PM. In his interviews with WW II Japanese vets, one, a Navy Lt. on Iwo ordered his men to 'grind' the chrysanthemums as the fighting neared an end, and two other vets said they were ordered to 'grind' (probably deface) the mums before surrendering their rifles. (But who kept the ball rolling after the war was over and why?) I know, this covered many times before.

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 12/22/2006 10:07:00 AM
Message:
Ronin,
I looked at the muzzle on the 'circle' T30. You remember correctly that it is shortened perhaps 5/16". What makes you think this is related to the second class circle? or do you?
Anyone could have 'fixed' the muzzle in the last 50 years, or do we know something about this?

Frank,
are many of these second class marked T30's reported? I suspect this marking may be omitted from data sheets.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 12/24/2006 6:07:27 PM
Message:
Nope 03, don't think it means "2nd class" Based on two observations,, yours and one other, it signifies a shortened muzzle or perhaps other modifications. Perhaps that is why it was in Borneo, refurbished in Japan and shipped to Borneo for use in a 'back-water area.' Borneo taken early in the war and saw no action until 45? Send the newer rifles to combat areas?

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