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McCullom addressed most of the concerns a lot of you have brought up. Plus Lake City building a new facility just to manufacture the 80,000 version. The barrel is supposed to be easy to change. Most full auto will be done by the MG version.

PRC has actual body armor, unlike the “magic wool” Russia has clad their cannon fodder in. I suspect the PRC supply chain isn’t nearly as corrupt as Russia. And the PRC has designed their own rifle and corresponding Ammo.
 

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We should just adopt the 6.5x55 Swedish and leave it at that.
+1. Lots of room inside the 6.5x 55 mm case for hot powder so you can goose pressure way up there. The limiting factor was the strength of the original 1893 Mauser and Krag actions. Run 6.5x55 through a modern rifle and there is lots of room for higher velocity and pressure. I've loaded to the maximum published limits for my CZ550, which is basically a 3-lug Mauser 98 and recoil is unpleasant, but it works. A muzzle brake would probably help. I also shoot a Garand with the Criterion 6.5x55 barrel, and it is sweet!

The Swedes and Norwegians got it right almost 130 years ago.
 

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
If we use the Swedish cartridge, where is the progress? 100 years plus, and nothing? That's why the new, bi-metal casing, high pressure cartridge is a step moving forward. It might be a flop. I don't know. But, that's the price you pay for progress.
 

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If we use the Swedish cartridge, where is the progress? 100 years plus, and nothing? That's why the new, bi-metal casing, high pressure cartridge is a step moving forward. It might be a flop. I don't know. But, that's the price you pay for progress.
There is progress, and the appearance of progress. Pasteurization has been around for over 150 years and nobody has come up with a better way. The battle between armor and projectile has been ongoing since the Monitor took on the CSS Virginia. Armor got thicker and more effective until shaped charge projectiles arrived. Now it's reactive armor vs. duplex HEAT. My point is that nobody other than tankers is trying to defeat armor kinetically.
 

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Interesting that no sees that this technology might also be applied other small arms systems. There is already one new small bore pistol cartridge that is at 50 k pressure; could and 80k pressure 30 super super carry in our future? Perhaps this new two part cartridge casing can be applied to systems that we lowly civilians use. The magnum rifle crowd should be interested for sure.
 

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All I know is that the 6.5x55 Swedish is a flat-shooting cartridge with excellent penetrating ability due to it's high cross-sectional density. I don't understand why we think people were somehow less intelligent 100+ years ago. I find a Swedish M96 superior to most modern hunting bolt-action designs in many ways, and the quality exceeds most modern production guns.
 

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... I find a Swedish M96 superior to most modern hunting bolt-action designs in many ways, and the quality exceeds most modern production guns.
Going OT but relevant to the above remarks regarding build quality: in my thread

I described how I installed a BadAce NDT scope mount on my 1918 Carl Gustaf M96. In order to use a standard scope I obviously needed a turned down bolt handle. I started by trying the bolt from one of my 1942 Husqvarna M38's. I could not get the bolt to lock up fully, but the cause of that was easy enough to recognize and fix. I then tested head space with Forster NoGo and Go gauges. Headspace was correct. Curious, I tried the bolt from my other 1942 Husqvarna M38; it too checked out. I then ordered a NOS M38 bolt body from Liberty Tree. It too checked out for headspace. All three bolts, made by a different factory 24 years later correctly head spaced. The handles of all three bolts stopped on the NoGo gauge at the same angle. This shows the incredible precision and fine tolerances of manufacture by both makers.

I used the CG striker assembly with the Husqvarna bolt body and this combination of "alien" parts also worked perfectly.
 

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"It doesn't have to" is the same mentality of those armies dwelt on the bows and arrows, swords and spears.
Infantry rifles do not win wars. Rifles do not decide battles. Combat is initiated by combined arms use of armor, artillery and tactical air support. In this age to this triad must be added electronic warfare. The complex digital communications that enable remote commanders to micromanage the battlefield will be the primary target. The infantry rifle finishes the battle if there is any coherent resistance left. If the triad + electronic warfare fail to work, no rifle of any sort will make any difference.

The above is general war combat. If you start introducing special operations, insurgency, "limited war" and anything other than operations for which general purpose troops are suitable, the rifle then takes on a different role. I'm not saying 6.8x51 has no value, but it is going to be a special purpose weapon for specialized troops.
 

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Has the military tested the 7.62 X 51 with a 130+or - grain bullet with a penetrator? Maybe on the AR10 platform with a good muzzle brake? Same chamber pressure as the current 7.62 x 51 but with increased velocity.
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
The work of the 7.62 NATO was done 60 some years ago. Now the government will only buy complete gun and ammo package from a handful gun companies. No one is interested in improving the current ammo, except the hobbyists.
 

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The entire thought process seems like, well no thinking at all. What does a rifleman need? A rifle about 8 pounds loaded that is easy to swing, fast acting like the old M2 Carbine in close, place enough energy on a plate in close for significant soft tissue damage. (There will be more than 1 shot) The same rifle has to place significant energy with accuracy on target at ranges in the 800 yard range in windy conditions.

Chasing armor penetration is BS, no rifle that has any value to a combat soldier will penetrate near and far. If there is a plate MOVE OFF THE PLATE! Being able to defend yourself and attack the enemy at the muzzle, and within 200 yards out to 800 yards is the need.

7.62x51, please! This is thec21st century! The SD/BC of 30 caliber projectiles fails the needs, math test. There are reasonable choices but not a platform, the AR15 is perfect weight in general, except that it needs to be modified for the ability to handle higher bolt stress. Then the 6MM ARC or 6.6 Grendel with pressures increased to 62,000 or 63,000 PSI, like the proven pressure of the M855A1. The 6MM ARC and 6.5 Grendel rounds exceed the ability of the 7.62x51 in trajectory and wind at the low 52,000 PSI, give them 10,000 more PSI, a platform to run them and the military has what it needs.
 

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The entire thought process seems like, well no thinking at all. What does a rifleman need? A rifle about 8 pounds loaded that is easy to swing, fast acting like the old M2 Carbine in close, place enough energy on a plate in close for significant soft tissue damage. (There will be more than 1 shot) The same rifle has to place significant energy with accuracy on target at ranges in the 800 yard range on windy conditions.

Chasing armor penetration is BS, no rifle that has any value to a combat soldier will penetrate near and far. If there is a plate MOVE OFF THE PLATE! Being able to defend yourself and attack the enemy within 200 yards out to 800 yards is the need.

7.62x51, please! The SD/BC of 30 caliber projectiles fails the needs, math test. There are reasonable choices but not a platform, the AR15 is perfect except that it needs to be modified for the ability to handle higher bolt stress. Then the 6MM ARC or 6.6 Grendel with pressures increased to 62,000 or 63,000 PSI. These rounds exceed the ability of the 7.62x51 in trajectory and wind at low 52,000 PSI, give them 10,000 more PSI and the military has what it needs.
The US military has for a very long time made brilliante and also dumb decisions over the last century and a half if not for longer. Time will tell. The military often prepares for the last war is something that I have seen written.
 

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I appreciate my seven-point-six-two-millimeter-full-metal-jacket as much as the next red-blooded American M-14 afficianado, and as much as the next exotic European battle-rifle afficianado. But for the time, that does seem to have been a dumb Army move. If they didn't want to go full sturmgewehr/AK intermediate round, the .280 was sitting right there looking fairly handsome in rifles and not too bad in machineguns.

Or maybe that's just a circle that can't be squared - a round with enough mojo to meet real GPMG standards, that also can be fired full-auto from an individual weapon. The US later cut the Gordian knot by adopting the 5.56 alongside the 7.62 and sending both to Viet Nam.
 
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