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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Thoughts on 99 collecting.

Topic:



Topic author: Ronin48
Subject: Thoughts on 99 collecting.
Posted on: 04/21/2005 11:31:02 AM
Message:

Most who/whom become serious 99 collectors build a collection by series, once-'apona'-time I did. Couple of problems here, when you get into transition rifles there can be a number of changes within a series and the 12th and 40th ? are almost impossible to obtain. And you end up with a number of identical rifles from the same Arsenal, i.e. "0" through "4", etc. When you show this collection to a non-collector all he sees is a group of rifles, some of which are identcial and you have to explain the 'series' method of marking the rifles. Also it would be possible to go from an early 7th with full length ladder rear sight to a "Sub T-99" 8th skipping the short ladder rear sight/grooved safety knob 7th rifles.

Would not a "better" (beauty being in the eye of the beholder) way to build a representative collection would be to collect by major variation by manufacturer? This would demonstrate the major 'retrograde' configuration changes made at each facility as the war progressed.

Of course, this brings up the question of what qualifies as a "major change?" Certainly a 3sfb to 2sfb (three-screw to two-screw) front band is a major change, dropping the pod but retaining the pod band is a major change, dropping the aicraft lead arms while retaining the aircraft arm sight slide is also. (Or are they?) Can you find all these changes on one rifle, too lazy to look?

But with this method you can show your non-collector/non-Arisaka collector the changes made with out repeating configurations, explaining IROHA, etc.

Currently my small, representtive Japanese rifle collection of about 16 or so pieces goes from Matchlocks through the 02/45, I have a 99 long, early, mid, late transtion, Sub 99 and Sub 99 'rope hole.' Just recently added the early and late transition rifles which means I have to build/rearrange gun racks/rifles. I do have a samll collection of 11th series by configuration variation, but it is not on the wall/display.

I realize this question falls into the class of"how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" We all have our own thoughts on how to build a 99 collection. However with the increasing cost/scarcity of good 99s building a representative 99 collection by series, including changes within a series, is beyond many of us. A collection including the major changes by manufacturer is an attractive alternative. Your comments?



Replies:

Reply author: GunNut1975
Replied on: 04/21/2005 11:58:38 AM
Message:
Collecting for me begins with two things:
1.Does it appeal to me?/Does it fit in the collection I'm trying to build?
2.Can I afford it?
That's basically how I've been doing it.
P.S.If I can't afford it:
3.Can I get a loan?

Reply author: Douglas I. Kerley
Replied on: 04/21/2005 12:39:13 PM
Message:
HI; I like the variations and not the series marks. Any little variation is good for me. I really like the 7th series changes and the Jensen series 40 changes like pluging the drain holes after the fact. Using the one screw rear sling swivel on a stock inleted for the two screw one. That kind of thing. You know, filling in and getting one more rifle out on the next transport. Doug

Reply author: CW
Replied on: 04/21/2005 2:10:35 PM
Message:
I'm in GunNuts position: Does it appeal to me? Can I afford it?
I don't feel compelled to collect every series or unusaul variation.

Reply author: GUN HO
Replied on: 04/21/2005 3:05:04 PM
Message:
Their like crack to me gotta have more all variations.

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 04/21/2005 5:12:51 PM
Message:
My Type 99 collection, my main emphasis, is based upon an attempt to have an example copy of all parts variations and, at the same time to have an example from each arsenal. Then I branched out into all markings variations - concentric circle rifles, etc. and only then on to an attempt to get all series, which I have not achieved as I am sidelined on my pursuit of Type 38s for photographing purposes for the book.

Having said that, I find myself more and more drawn to Type 38 variations as I learn more about them. Not often recognized is the vast number of differences between the various members of the Type 38 family of weapons. They spanned a longer production period and their markings are FAR more complex.

Frank


Reply author: JWMWITZ
Replied on: 04/21/2005 7:02:41 PM
Message:
I really like the Toyo Kogyo series of Type 99's. Maybe it's because they were made in Hiroshima, and maybe it's because they have such a nice stock color. Whatever. I also don't like those barrel shaped bolt handles, and TK's are all "plums".


My favaorite Arisaka is still the Type 38 though. It was the mainstay of the Japanese military for 40 years. I still think that the Type 38 with bolt cover and sling, is one of the best looking rifles around.

John in Charlotte, NC



Reply author: spd7143
Replied on: 04/21/2005 9:01:56 PM
Message:
I started my collection by trying to obtain one of every type gun from the type 18 through 99. I then became interested in the variations involved in the 99's and decided that I would try and collect series from one arsenal.

As illustrated by eloldehombre1, this disintegrated into my now having become fascinated in trying to obtain all the different variations even within a series. I chose Nagoya since at the time, it seemed to be the most reasonable one to try
I have been doing quite well although not anywhere close to what A-Dogs has been able to accomplish so far.


I still consider the collection doable since I am still pretty young being only 35. This assuming that I live a few years more. I agree that trying to explain nuances of changes to someone outside of the Japanese collector circle would get somewhat involved but this collection is for my enjoyment. When I do have friend's over who want to see my collection, I enjoy explaining the differences to them.

I hope to pass the collection on to my children but if need be, it could also serve to help put them through college if I need to sell them. I would sell them kicking and screaming though. If my kids don't want to keep the collection after I'm gone, hopefully they'll sell them to someone who does care.

I also keep trying to convince the wife that my collection building is a lot healthier than me spending money at the bar or playing poker but she's not totally convinced


Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 04/21/2005 9:15:52 PM
Message:
spd7143, I can give you a note for your wife, "buying collectible rifles is better than money in the bank, or stock market".

Collecting- started out as each type by manufacturer, ie. early, mid, late if they did each. Then disintegrated into the "other" variations, like series 7, must be 4 or 8. Sub-contractors, lots of variants. Finally had to draw the line at Japanese produced and used weapons, no Chinese, no Korean, no Siamese, well except for the Thai police carbine I kinda like, cause its almost a T38 carbine, which I really like the best. Oh my!; like Rick V says its just a small step from collecting to insanity.

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 04/21/2005 9:38:07 PM
Message:
I started out I just wanted one of every series of t-99 in good decent matching condition .but I got distracted and bought up a lot of fixer uppers and basket cases along the way.now Ive gotten distracted on t-38's and all the differnt reciever markings ,and have started passing on nice t-99's to bid on chinese t-38's...not sure when that started but all the weird markings are a neat side track...Ive promised myself that as soon as I have a decent one of every variation for each series and each different reciever...then ILL call it good...for now Ive started shopping with specific guns in mind that I need to fill a certian niche in my collection ,I plan to narrow my wants down to less than 10 guns and just shop for those ones till that list is complete...then ILL make a new list...until I have them all...hahahahaha...

Reply author: Navybuff
Replied on: 04/22/2005 11:56:00 AM
Message:
I think when you start out collecting, you buy what you can when you can. Thats the way it is for me. With my work and all the long hourS and little time for gun shoppong, I still collect that way. Once retirement comes I hope it will change. Sometimes you just have that cash burning a hole in your pocket to the point you'll buy about any gun to get your "fix", I.E. the one K-98 in my collection came from a NGD show when I had walked for 8 hours and found nothing, Stop by Gary Cole's table and bought a DOT 44, walked out the door and ran into ChrisG carring in a type 38 Carbine and bought it also. I think alot of collecting for the newbie is the timing.

Reply author: Grumpy1
Replied on: 04/22/2005 1:53:33 PM
Message:
Years ago when I started collecting I decided to leave the boat anchors to Doss and others. It was gratify to read that over the many years that both he and I have, that he has gotten smarter. I have very few rifles, just a few examples but have come across or seen some really rare stuff over the last 20+ years. Uncommon examples make really good trade material.

Reply author: n/a
Replied on: 04/22/2005 5:17:50 PM
Message:
I just picked up my first Type 99 today, actually. I've read about these rifles, how they are some of the strongest actions among any bolt-actions. I actually picked this one up with the idea of trading or selling it. However, I may look around for some ammo and see how it shoots. I'm leery of getting into yet another flavor of milsurps, as I am focusing on Mosins now.



Reply author: spd7143
Replied on: 04/22/2005 5:26:48 PM
Message:
03man, that letter would just put the idea in her head that I might actually sell them off someday


Reply author: mag
Replied on: 04/23/2005 12:09:09 AM
Message:
My aim is to have every 10,000 block of every series. Almost there ( a couple of 10,000 blocks just seem to be gone), but am running out of room to put them. Then I started also getting rifles that were out of sinc in the 10,000 block. Then with all those rifle I started to try to get serial #'s in a row. It does make my collecting a pain as I need to know the whole serial # before I buy, and most auction ads just do not show them. mag

Reply author: kfields
Replied on: 04/23/2005 07:43:25 AM
Message:
The approach that interests me is to add rifles to my collection that have some tie to its' original owner or unit he belonged to or the fellow who brought it back. The linkage may be slight and may only consist of a name on a tag attached to the rifle. Of course I'm always looking to acquire rifles with serial numbered bringback paperwork. The best of all worlds for me is to add a rifle to the collection that is documented and is in matching original condition.
If I had more room than I do now or if I were single, I think I would take a crack at acquiring as many variations as I could.


Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 04/23/2005 11:09:33 AM
Message:
Mag/Kfields, Blevins says I suggested to him to pick up a 99 in every 10K SN block, you need to come to shootout (Memorial Day weekend) and see his collection. It is "breath-taking."

Kfields, same interest as you, rifles with history as a 'sub-collection' and Arisakas used by other countries as second 'sub-collection.

Reply author: gwsiii
Replied on: 04/23/2005 1:47:09 PM
Message:
I started with a 38 carbine from my Grandfather, and a sword. I bought a 38 long rifle to go with the carbine, then a 99 short to go with them. I figured I had it licked. Then I found the Arisaka Bible by Mr. Honeycutt and realized there was much more to be had. I don't care much for the monopod guns, there are only a few variations in them. I really like the transition and late guns. I've dabbled in rarities as I find them, and pistols as well. When I couldn't find a rifle, I'd buy a nice pistol with the money with the intention of selling when a rifle came along. No such luck. I'm at 48 pistols now, significantly more Arisakas and do not see the end in sight. I'd like to ultimately have each minor variation found in each series or each model, that's really a lot to ask for, but since I'm always looking, I can almost always find one I don't have. I've only got about 5 million or less more to go. If I were just starting out again, I'd emphasize on Trainers, as I think there is a lot that we are going to learn in the near future about them. I really want one of the wooden rifles used for bayonet training, but the two that I've found that were reasonably priced, I let advanced bayonet collectors have, assuming I'd find another in the near future. Oh Well, that's what I get for assuming. Trey

Reply author: richigan
Replied on: 04/23/2005 5:56:50 PM
Message:
I innocently started with my dad's bring back paratrooper, and 46 rifles later, I'm still not done. Some way I thought it would be cool to have an example of each series, and have tried to collect that way. I have a collection of bayonets, T38's long and carbine and of course the T99's. Still need enough of each to keep it exciting, patience is needed, and keep it to a budget. I feel they are a great investment, some are worth more than double what I paid. But, some might not be worth more than I paid. Learning more every day, I don't think I'm an expert, and the history of the war and different battles is fascinating to read and explore.

Reply author: mag
Replied on: 04/24/2005 01:34:27 AM
Message:





quote: Originally posted by Eloldehombre1
Mag/Kfields, Blevins says I suggested to him to pick up a 99 in every 10K SN block, you need to come to shootout (Memorial Day weekend) and see his collection. It is "breath-taking."
Kfields, same interest as you, rifles with history as a 'sub-collection' and Arisakas used by other countries as second 'sub-collection.
What city and state is it in? I would like to try and make time to go, but it is going to be a long trip for me. mag

Reply author: rcb
Replied on: 04/24/2005 9:05:06 PM
Message:
I started picking up Japanese rifle around 1950. Just what ever I could find. Learned a lot when Military Rifles of Japan came out in the 70's. Really got interested in a collection about 10 years ago. I collect by series and don't care much for the variations. I like the earlier rifles and have at least one rifle of each variation except the 12th. Most are in excellent shape with the mums and all the goodies. I have a 99 long from the two arsenals that made them. Two paratrooper T2's. Have the three variations of the 44's all in excellent condition. Have dozen or so T38 carbines and am going to spend some time with them till I get one of each variation and arsenal. I have a number of T38 long rifles that I intend to do the same with.

Reply author: HowdyDoody
Replied on: 04/24/2005 10:05:51 PM
Message:
I started about 40 years ago with a DCM 03A3. Looked for different bolt action military rifles. Bought a 99 series 4 and a 38 carbine series 5 at the same time from a gunshop. Thought I had Japan covered. Then a 38 long, a 30, a 44, a 99 6th, type 14, NCO sword. The last three as a group. I had then gone too far over the slippery slope. The more I have, the more I see I'm missing. I know my 99 series 4 is not any different from a series 2 or 3, but if I run across a 2nd or 3rd series complete in excellent condition, I'll probably buy it. It's a lot like drinking scotch.
jim

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 04/25/2005 06:40:29 AM
Message:
hmmmmm...2 of my very very favorite things...fine japanese rifles and good scotch.can never have too much of either,tho a little less scotch before going to the auction sites and my collection might be less chaotic.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 04/25/2005 09:12:16 AM
Message:
Bobby lives outside of Hammonsville, AL. Closest city on the map would be Ft. Payne, look in NE corner of AL map. Nearest airports are B'ham, Chattanooga and Atlanta (also Huntsville?). If you can make it email me your address and I'll send you a detail map.

Sounds like you and Bobby have a lot in common.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 04/26/2005 01:04:13 AM
Message:
I'm pretty happy with the method I've come up with after so many years of somewhat aimless collecting (gathering). I decided on Nagoyas because they made all the cool stuff & were there throughout the full production of T-99s. What I do is a combination of series & variation collecting. I try to fill each series with as many of the changes I can, within reason. This still looks like something that can be pretty well acomplished without too much redundancy. As far as what non collectors think - they can jump in a lake! I felt the same way when I was in Civil War Reenacting - everyone then said we're doing this to "educate the public". Screw the public! They can buy a book. I did it to get a taste of history!

Reply author: n/a
Replied on: 04/26/2005 5:52:02 PM
Message:
Update to my earlier post... my first Japanese rifle I picked up last week. Series 1 Nagoya Type 99. Mum intact. M/M bolt, Exc bore, good bluing, original stock finish, original sling, original rod. Missing AA wings and monopod.

Just what I need.... another flavor of milsurp to collect. I blame you all.

Reply author: GunNut1975
Replied on: 04/26/2005 6:01:16 PM
Message:
Glad to be of service.


Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 04/27/2005 09:34:26 AM
Message:
Adog. You are missing several of the'major' variations by sticking with Nagoyas, square recoil lug in 24th, the wooden butt plates used with folding rear sights in another series, etc. However, it's what you are happy with.

I've always been interested in the late ordnance, that's how I ended up with the $50 20,8 T-14. Ran across it about a week after I received "Hand Cannons of Imperial Japan" and remembered only one SN listed for the month.

I'm off on a tangent again - have been trying to build a 11th series collection of all major variations, whatever a major variation is. I have one of Bobby's rifles, late 11th rope hole, mm bolt and refinished stock. Rope holes started around 90K sn range, then around 96-97 went back to SSRS (single screw rear swivel) and on to rope hole feature again. Have the early rope hole, the SSRS, do I need Bobby's rope hole on the high side of the SSRS configuration? Can rifle be restored to simbulance of originality? Oh well, gives me something to do, it keeps me out of the pool hall and with the bum knee can't run the sheep down anymore.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 04/28/2005 12:07:23 AM
Message:
Eloldefartuno, you're right about missing out on some variations. I've accepted that I'll never have it all. That's why I gave up on the pistols long ago - yikes! However, my collecting life is now much simpler & I feel I can accomplish something with these goals. I spend much less time on-line looking at every rifle & bayonet. If the auction says Kokura, for example, I blow by it. I appreciate all the rifles but I like the rusults of this focus, so far!


Reply author: davef
Replied on: 04/28/2005 01:45:05 AM
Message:
HMMM now theres a thought...do I need both a single screw rear swivel rifle without d/c grooves from both before and after the rope hole ones,or is just one acceptable,,,same with rope holes does one need an example from both groups (early and late) or would one suffice..arrrggghhh this collection just got 4 rifles bigger again...Dave


Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 04/28/2005 02:06:15 AM
Message:
So, what's a "Good Old Rebel" doin in Yankee land? Dave, you need to relax, set some goals and pick up the nice items you identify within these goals. Did you have 'that' seller send me 'that' answer to my question? Pretty sneaky, I'd say.
Here's the T-99s so far. Each Nagoya series is pretty well represented, except for the 12th.
Sorry about the T-2 at the end!

View attachment 11472
Download Attachment:
119.99 KB

Of the rifles shown, 13 have untouched mums and all are fully matching except for one 8th series that has a mismatched safety.

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 04/28/2005 03:52:20 AM
Message:
I was gonna do the variation thing as easier but then it got all weird that way too...like the question I asked about the 11th series ...every series is like that to be complete it gets huge...even the little series like howa 9 you need a early features one and a late one ,is that it ,no, cause then you need a early features gun without the t-99,and a late one with the t-99,and maybe a early feature gun with the short handguard and it just gets bigger and bigger....:)

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 04/28/2005 08:59:06 AM
Message:
Well Dave, I dunno - sounds pretty hopeless to me.

Reply author: mag
Replied on: 04/29/2005 12:33:35 AM
Message:
Yes, it is all really hopeless!! I have run out of room to store the T-99's. But lately I have been finding stuuf I just had to get. Local gun store calls me on all the T-99 tradeins they take, they DO not want them. I really did not need them, but it is hard to pass up mumed, matching rifles for $75.00. EVEN if I already have the 10,000 block. Then of course a couple turn out to be really good shooters, so I can't even trade them! Then the manitory test shooting of each new rifle with 4 groups of each handload, I have shot over 500 rounds of 7.7mm handloaded ammo this week. I have also found some "oddballs" within 1000 numbers of stuff I already have BUT with different features [ that is the cool thing, or problem, with late K-24's and 25's, TK-33's and the N-7's and 8's]. This is really bad since I DO NOT specialize in Arisaka's, I collect all military rifles from 1850 up. The Arisaka's keep intruding on the other rifles storage areas. mag

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 04/29/2005 12:46:47 AM
Message:
Mummed matching for $75 - sounds like yesteryear to me! Now that term dates me! I think "yesteryear" is from the intro to the "Lone Ranger" TV show. I'd sure like to have a shot at those kind of deals!

Reply author: mag
Replied on: 04/29/2005 5:50:24 PM
Message:
There is still some of that happenning. When the vet dies, his inlaws get the stuff and the first thing they do is head to the gunshop to sell it. The couple of the local shops have no idea about old military rifles and do not care to learn. They are all junk to them. So they gunshop gives $25.00 for the rifle and give me a call to make a quick $50.00 or so. some really good rifle turn up that way, they have not seen the light of day for 50 years and are mostly unmessed with. mag

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 04/30/2005 09:20:38 AM
Message:
Mag, If you ever run across an 'extra,' documented, Iwo Jima bring-back would be interested in buying. ONne of the BANZAI subscribers was on Iwo, sent home several rifles, some which he made into sporters. I have a rear band and pod off one, but can't get him to turn loose of a rifle. Have offered to pay his price and then GIVE him a replacement of equal or better quality, no dice. An Iwo rifle is the last one I need to have all the 'major' battles in the PTO.

Reply author: mag
Replied on: 05/01/2005 12:55:54 AM
Message:
Heck! Every rifle I ever look at is a "iwo" bring back that was taken off a general ! ! ! One of the few I got from a vet that I believed the story was " I was a truck driver delivering supplies to the front after a battle and I found it in a ditch" . mag

Reply author: garfield
Replied on: 05/01/2005 02:47:39 AM
Message:
Hey, guys! What is a "99"? TIA

Reply author: RayG_Wisconsin
Replied on: 05/01/2005 08:46:00 AM
Message:
Davef, regarding your poem, It's also too bad a lot of good southern boys are lying in the same ground, as I think the greatest tragity of the CW was that a lot of poor/middle class brave southern boys (non slave holders) fought and died for a rich man's war, ie the plantation owners aggument with the north over slavery and tariff's that effected mostly only them. The war should never had happened, Ray

Reply author: rcb
Replied on: 05/01/2005 09:10:50 AM
Message:
The war was not over slavery, it was over states rights, the same things we are suffering now from the Democratic Party. The do gooders would like you to beleive it was over slavery, but not so. rcb.

Reply author: RayG_Wisconsin
Replied on: 05/01/2005 09:50:42 AM
Message:
I understand that, but who benifited the most with the states rights that were fought over. The well to do and the plantation owners of course. No doubt about it, Ray

Reply author: rcb
Replied on: 05/01/2005 1:37:47 PM
Message:
Then I guess the poor northern boys fought and died so the northern well to do and the industrial giants could benfit. At Gettysburg Lincoln freed the slaves in the south but not in the north. Wonder why? rcb.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 05/01/2005 1:46:21 PM
Message:
Actually, the "Emancipation Proclamation" was issued shortly after the battle of Antietam. Funny how these posts "evolve"!

Reply author: RayG_Wisconsin
Replied on: 05/01/2005 2:14:55 PM
Message:
fcb, Same thing, makes no difference, only the north didn't start it. As I said the war was a tragedy and should not have been started if only cooler heads would have prevailed instead of firing up the masses. Slavery was dying out and would probably have ended a few years later anyway. Not popular in the advanced countries at the time. The industrial evolution was taking place providing machinery for plantation work anyway. It still boils down to why would a poor or middle class person who has nothing to gain, want to fight and die to benefit the ruling class (so to speak). But I guess that's the way it's always been. the poor and the middle class taking up arms for the Kings, Emperors, Rulers etc. and not to forget the industrialists. Please understand, I am a conserative not a lib, but the older I get, the more I can understand some things a little better, Ray.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 05/04/2005 11:13:42 AM
Message:
Way off topic, but watch for the book, came out in paperback, "If the South Had Won the Civil War," a good, thought-provoking read.

Reply author: garfield
Replied on: 05/04/2005 6:08:41 PM
Message:





quote: Originally posted by Eloldehombre1
Way off topic, but watch for the book, came out in paperback, "If the South Had Won the Civil War," a good, thought-provoking read.
I read someplace, maybe it was in this book, that if the South had won the war, grits would be a mandatory side plate at every meal. While it would appear to be unsubstantiated rumor, seems that this information was circulated to the Northern Troops, providing an added incentive for victory.

Reply author: mag
Replied on: 05/04/2005 11:57:55 PM
Message:
Hey, I am from the north and I do like grits. Melt alot of butter in them, load up with sugar and milk. mag

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 05/05/2005 7:59:21 PM
Message:
Anybody that don't like grits, probably ain't never eat any shrimp and grits. Got to flavor them up a little like MAG says. But then I heard them yankees eat cream of wheat, rice with milk, and mush too. Grits probably got too much flavor.

Reply author: GunNut1975
Replied on: 05/05/2005 8:30:49 PM
Message:
Also in the "What if the South had won"vien,the books by Harry Turtledove make darned good reading."How Few Remain"is a good one,dealing with the SECOND war between the states.(spoiler-The U.S. didn't win that one either)Or the Great War books(W.W.1-The U.S.and Imperial Germany vs.the Confederacy,England,and France)

Reply author: vis35
Replied on: 05/06/2005 02:24:10 AM
Message:
A favorite of mine is also by Harry Turtledove, “The Guns of the South”; if you have not read it, give yourself a treat. Any book that has Robert E. Lee on the cover holding an AK-47 is going to be a trip! It is an alternate history view of the War of Northern Aggression involving time travel, sounds crazy but very well written. One of the most interesting parts to me is a report from a Union ordnance officer describing how the new Confederate repeater (the AK-47) works!
Regards,
Jeff


Reply author: GunNut1975
Replied on: 05/06/2005 02:43:43 AM
Message:
That's the book that brought the author to my attention.I still read it once in a while.Great historical/sci-fi twist.Not to mention rather insightful,for a work of fiction.


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