[JPS]

Hello Gents,

Would greatly appreciate help to confirm some research I have working on. Here’s what I have and would like to please receive either confirmation regarding its accuracy or corrections if necessary.

The Troopers were issued M1896 Krag Carbines chambered for the .30 Govt. which is commonly referred to as the .30-40 today. In addition to the Krag, the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Volunteer Cavalry were issued M1873 SAA “Altered” Revolvers (Artillery Model) that were referred to with this nomenclature following the shortening of their barrels from 7 ½” to 5 ½”.

Theodore Roosevelt carried a M1895 Winchester chambered for the .30 Govt. and a Model 1892 DA .38 Service Revolver. It is also noted that TR presented M1895 Winchesters to all of the officers of the Regiment.

Any and all comments and corrections are welcome.

Warmest regards,

JPS

 

[Frank]

JPS Your basic info looks good; but I think the .30-40 was called .30 Army. The early .30-06 was called .30 Govt. I will check my Win 95 carbine to be sure. It is way back in the safe right now and it is late.

PS. I just checked an early box of .30-06; and it is labeled .30 Government Model 1906.

Frank

 

[doughboy1953]

JPS Your basic info looks good; but I think the .30-40 was called .30 Army. The early .30-06 was called .30 Govt. I will check my Win 95 carbine to be sure. It is way back in the safe right now and it is late.

PS. I just checked an early box of .30-06; and it is labeled .30 Government Model 1906.

Frank

Not sure about the "government" vs "Army" issue on the .30-40 Krag. I thought it was .30 government also at the time and may have changed after adoption of the M1903 in .30-03 (later changed to .30-06).
Roosevelt's revolver if I recall right was a survivor of the "Maine" and raised from Havana Harbor. A relative connected with the Department of the Navy gave it to him I believe. Not sure about the model number, but would guess it was a Navy variant, so may not have been considered an "1892". I know the American Rifleman has featured articles on that handgun. I also know Man at Arms published an article or two about the "Artillery Models" serial numbers issued to the 1st Volunteer Cavalry "Rough Riders". If I remember, will try to get references.
I thought I recalled reading that Roosevelt had given his personally owned 95 Winchester to one of his troopers who had lost his Krag.

 

[doughboy1953]

Not sure about the "government" vs "Army" issue on the .30-40 Krag. I thought it was .30 government also at the time and may have changed after adoption of the M1903 in .30-03 (later changed to .30-06).
Roosevelt's revolver if I recall right was a survivor of the "Maine" and raised from Havana Harbor. A relative connected with the Department of the Navy gave it to him I believe. Not sure about the model number, but would guess it was a Navy variant, so may not have been considered an "1892". I know the American Rifleman has featured articles on that handgun. I also know Man at Arms published an article or two about the "Artillery Models" serial numbers issued to the 1st Volunteer Cavalry "Rough Riders". If I remember, will try to get references.
I thought I recalled reading that Roosevelt had given his personally owned 95 Winchester to one of his troopers who had lost his Krag.

Hmm, I am having problems finding my file on US revolvers which has copies of the Man at Arms (I think) articles on Rough Rider artillery models and the NRA reports on Teddy's revolver which was stolen and then recovered. Trolling the net one source says Roosevelt's revolver was 1892 but another one says it was an 1889 (Navy) (which makes sense to me): I would guess it was converted to 1894 standards which Navy probably called their Model 1895.
I'll keep looking. I ran out of file cabinets long ago.

 

[fireman]

JPS...here are some website with some info. The first one is a bit basic. It is a reenactors site but has good info.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/rough.htm

http://www.spanamwar.com/index.htm

 

[Guard Guy]

The current copy of Guns & Ammo Surplus Firearms has an article on Teddy's revolver. According to the article it was a .38 caliber New Navy Revolver, Model of 1895. It was originally issued to the U.S.S. Maine and was onboard when it was sunk.

 

[JPS]

Hello Gents,

Thank you for your help with my info. It's greatly appreciated.

I have found several additional sources that list Roosevelt's revolver from the Battleship Maine as a M1895. I was surprised to see that there wasn't a lanyard ring on the butt of the revolver???

Should I go with M1895 as the proper nomenclature for Teddy's revolver or M1892???

Thanks again for your help with this info.

Warmest regards,

JPS

 

[Guard Guy]

From what I gather, Colt designed the M1892 Revolver, but kept making changes over the years and changing the designation to the year of change (i.e, 1894, 1895, 1896, 1901 & 1903). The Colt he carried was S/N 16,334, Navy Acceptance No. 5770. It was produced on March 30, 1895.

 

[bandook]

Hello Gents,

Thank you for your help with my info. It's greatly appreciated.

I have found several additional sources that list Roosevelt's revolver from the Battleship Maine as a M1895. I was surprised to see that there wasn't a lanyard ring on the butt of the revolver???

Should I go with M1895 as the proper nomenclature for Teddy's revolver or M1892???

Thanks again for your help with this info.

Warmest regards,

JPS

I have read in many sources that the lanyard ring was applied to the .38 revolvers in the general refurbishment of 1901 for that type of arm. No lanyard ring would be entirely appropriate for a revolver that was taken out of service prior to 1901.

 

[doughboy1953]

I have read in many sources that the lanyard ring was applied to the .38 revolvers in the general refurbishment of 1901 for that type of arm. No lanyard ring would be entirely appropriate for a revolver that was taken out of service prior to 1901.

I think the truly official "Navy" versions of the new army and navy revolvers were the 1889 and 1895 and neither had lanyard rings. Almost all the 1889 revolvers were converted to the 1895 model (which had the Army 1894 locking system mechanism). Note that true 1895s ordered as such had plastic "Navy" grips that said only "Colt" on them and the grip frame was slightly smaller. But when the Navy converted the 1889s, they stuck with the wooden grips apparently due to the small deviation in grip size. Or so I understand. The last of these series revolvers were the rare Model 1905 USMC revolvers with their checkered wooden grips and rounded butt, and if I remember right, they did not have a lanyard ring either. (I could be wrong on that.)

If the serial number was truly in the 15,000 series, it sounds like Teddy could have had a converted 1889 revolver, but seems like pictures i've seen showed the commercial type grips. I understand the 1889 series had its own separate serial numbers, but when the 1892 Army mechanism was produced, Colt started the serial numbers over. I wonder if the serial number was 45,---or higher series and was misread as 15,--- series. Marks on these revolvers can be pretty faint due to the rebuilds/refinishes, general wear and tear, etc.

Sorry, I still haven't located my danged files on US military revolvers. I know I had an article or two on these, plus some listings of the Artillery Model single actions known issued to Rough Riders.

Note that to free up .45 autos, the Navy received many .38 rebuilds during the WWI time frame and were probably the big users of the .38s in that time frame although Army support forces in Europe were issued them and supposedly some National Guard troops in US. Navy was also issued Krags, presumably freeing some 1903s for service in Europe during World War I.

I'm not sure when the Maine was commissioned, because it's my understanding that US Navy ships were well known for keeping weapons in their inventory that they were commissioned with, which meant still having long obselete weapons in storage when they were decomissioned.

 

[tplan]

Should I go with M1895 as the proper nomenclature for Teddy's revolver or M1892???

According to the FBI: The weapon is a Model 1892 Army and Navy Colt double-action, six-shot revolver made in 1895.

They did get to handle it a few years ago.

 

[doughboy1953]

According to the FBI: The weapon is a Model 1892 Army and Navy Colt double-action, six-shot revolver made in 1895.

They did get to handle it a few years ago.

I finally located my file on US revolvers.
Man at Arms Jan/Feb 1989 has a listing of the artillery model single models known issued to the 1st Volunteer US Cavalry. It was written by Franklin B. Mallory, presumably based on his research in the National Archives. (Need a copy, let me know.)
I also found my copy of the American Rifleman issue of September 2006 which discussed return of Teddy Roosevelt's 1895 Navy Colt. That first series of Navy 1895 revolvers was serial numbered with the 1892 series revolvers and although built later than some of the first 1894 Army revolvers, has a lower serial number. Go figure.
I was also in error in an earlier statement of mine: the Colt M1905 revolver did indeed have a lanyard ring. That's what happens when I hipshoot from memory.
I think Man at Arms had a 2nd article about the 1896 Krag carbines known issued to the Rough Riders. Not sure if I have that one or not, or if it's of interest.

 

[kragluver]

The SRS listings in the back of both Mallory's book and the new Canfield bolt action rifles book details known RR Krag carbines. The S/Ns are reasonably well documented.

 

[Krag]

Here are some RR using their Artillery Model Colts to crush coffee beans. I hope they were unloaded?

 

[Marcus]

If anyone wants one of the Spanish American War captured Spanish Mauser rifles from the Havanna Arsenal, or just wants to see what a nice original example of one of these looks like, I have one listed for sale on the Trader.

I had the stock from one of the Winchester Lee Navy rifles that were recovered from the Maine, but sold it on the Trader here a couple years ago.

 

[Rick the Librarian2]

As I recall, the only known serial numbers on Model 1896 Krag carbines are on 2 (out of 10) troops of the Rough Riders. I sure would be interested to find the serial numbers of those issued to the other 8! (I have 1896 Krag carbine #77205)

 

[RayG_Wisconsin]

As I recall, the only known serial numbers on Model 1896 Krag carbines are on 2 (out of 10) troops of the Rough Riders. I sure would be interested to find the serial numbers of those issued to the other 8! (I have 1896 Krag carbine #77205)

Well I just looked at my early 96 dated carbine, its one with the 96 stamped on it but no word model. Serial # 32292. I never noticed it before but under the butt plate is a hand drawn map that says "Kettle hill", with a X inked on it with the notiation, "Me" and another X next to it with "Teddy here" written on it. with arrows from both X's pointed up the hill.
Maybe it's one of the missing carbines, Whats you think? LoL, Ray

 

[John Sukey In Memoriam]

But Kettle hill just doesn't sound as "romantic" as San Jaun hill.:laugh:

And Teddy might not have become president if it hadn't been for Lt. Parkers gatling guns keeping the spaniards heads down!

That same model revolver when used in the Phillipines proved so PATHETIC that they had to drag the SAA's out and put them in service again.

Of course the brits NEVER charged up Bunker Hill either