[max popenker]

The Simonov SVS-38 rifle in 7.62x54R, which lost in Soviet military trials to Tokarev SVT-40. After much experimentation and 7 years of continuous work, it eventually evolved into the SKS-45 rifle we all know now. The Grandfather.

A very early 7.62x39mm SKS-45 with spike bayonet (top) and the 7.62x54R Simonov semi-automatic rifle from circa 1941 (bottom). The father and the son.

All guns are from Russian museum collection, so don't grab your platinum credit cards or mortgage your homes

 

[barnetmill]

I wonder why in the case of the SKS they decided on the fixed magazine. I see the earlier rifle has a detachable magazine. An SKS in 7.62x54 with fixed magazine would be an interesting rifle.

 

[max popenker]

I wonder why in the case of the SKS they decided on the fixed magazine. I see the earlier rifle has a detachable magazine. An SKS in 7.62x54 with fixed magazine would be an interesting rifle.

I have no confirmation to that but I can assume that a fixed 10-round magazine with 10-round stripper clips is a cheaper and a lighter alternative to the detachable magazine of the same capacity.
30-roud AK magazine is a different matter

 

[BlackPowder]

I have no confirmation to that but I can assume that a fixed 10-round magazine with 10-round stripper clips is a cheaper and a lighter alternative to the detachable magazine of the same capacity.
30-roud AK magazine is a different matter

True. We often forget today that in decades past, ordnance officers all over the world were opposed to the removable magazine on principle -it was liable to get lost or more easily damaged, and replacement magazines were expensive and added a not inconsiderable extra cost to the system. The Lee style detachable magazine was used since 1888 (Britain) and 1889 (Switzerland) and could have easily been issued as we use magazines today, but was not, because of expense. Stripper clips (or in the case of the Garand the deliberate decision to forego a magazine in favor of en blocs) were cheaper and almost as fast for a trained soldier.

 

[max popenker]

I wonder why in the case of the SKS they decided on the fixed magazine. I see the earlier rifle has a detachable magazine. An SKS in 7.62x54 with fixed magazine would be an interesting rifle.

some said that Simonov 7.62x54R rifle from 1941 was a better weapon than the Tokarev SVT-40, but it came too late.

 

[Valhallarms]

Detachable magazines an untrained conscripts don't go well together

 

[Richard in NY*]

Max:

Excellent post. 👍

 

[DK PHILLIPS]

I have no confirmation to that but I can assume that a fixed 10-round magazine with 10-round stripper clips is a cheaper and a lighter alternative to the detachable magazine of the same capacity.
30-roud AK magazine is a different matter

more mags..took from material to build guns my thinking...

 

[max popenker]

Detachable magazines an untrained conscripts don't go well together

AK mags do pretty well, trust me. I was a 13yo boy when I got my basic training on the AK, and it was very easy
I think it's a matter of economy (remember that in 1945 USSR was in ruins) and weight savings.

 

[Valhallarms]

^ you proved my point..you got training.

 

[max popenker]

^ you proved my point..you got training.

to use rifle with stripper clips you need some training too.
IMHO it took about an hour or so to teach us boys to load magazines and charge the rifle. Then it got more complicated because we had to load mags against the clock

 

[Boris Badinov]

I wonder why in the case of the SKS they decided on the fixed magazine.

In a way they didn't. Just two years later the Soviets selected the detachable mag fed AK47. They simply stuck with the fixed mag sks as a stop gap until the late1950's when the logistical hurdles were ironed out of the AK design and production.

I see the earlier rifle has a detachable magazine. An SKS in 7.62x54 with fixed magazine would be an interesting rifle.

Rimmed cartridges are problematic with auto-fed firearms. Not to mention that the recoil of a 7.62x54r in a semi-auto carbine would be brutal. IIRC, Ruslan Chumak described that even the later prototype sks-43 in 7.62x41mm model-1941in 53R had to be reduced to x39mm because soldiers who tested the sks-43 model-1941 found it near impossible to continue firing effectively or at all after 40-50 rounds.

 

[Lachesis]

The SVT-38 that I own has a groove down the right side of the stock that holds the cleaning rod, the most obvious difference from the SVT-40.

 

[Valkoinen Kuolema]

In a way they didn't. Just two years later the Soviets selected the detachable mag fed AK47. They simply stuck with the fixed mag sks as a stop gap until the late1950's when the logistical hurdles were ironed out of the AK design and production.




Rimmed cartridges are problematic with magazine fed firearms. Not to mention that the recoil of a 7.62x54r in a semi-auto carbine would be brutal. IIRC, Ruslan Chumak described that even the later prototype sks-43 in 7.62x41mm cartridge had to be reduced to x39mm because soldiers who tested the sks-43 found it near impossible to continue firing effectively or at all after 40-50 rounds.

I'm sure the 110lb communist conscripts hated the moderate recoil. Uberchad American GIs will fire thousands of rounds of 30-06 and complain about not being issued full power cartridges.

 

[max popenker]

Rimmed cartridges are problematic with magazine fed firearms. Not to mention that the recoil of a 7.62x54r in a semi-auto carbine would be brutal. IIRC, Ruslan Chumak described that even the later prototype sks-43 in 7.62x41mm cartridge had to be reduced to x39mm because soldiers who tested the sks-43 found it near impossible to continue firing effectively or at all after 40-50 rounds.

I think you got this completely wrong.
The original 7.62x41 M1943 cartridge was a rimless round, and it had the same recoil impulse as the latter 7.62x39, adopted in 1947. The key difference is that 7.62x41 used a flat-based 8 gram bullet with lead core, while 7.62x39 used a slightly longer boat-tailed bullet with steel core, also weighting 8 grams

 

[AKBLUE]

It appears the 7.62x41 is a rimless case as is the 7.62x39.

 

[max popenker]

It appears the 7.62x41 is a rimless case as is the 7.62x39.

you are correct, my mistake. will fix it

 

[Boris Badinov]

I think you got this completely wrong.

I suggest rereading what I said.

What I said was that according to Ruslan Chumak's history of the sks, the 7.62x41 53r cartridge produced too much recoil in testing with Soviet soldiers.

Are you not familiar with Chumak's history of the sks?

 

[Boris Badinov]

Ruslan Chumak notes several shortcomings of the x41mm prototype:

• heavy felt recoil which severely limited the ability to shoot effectively after more than 50 rounds,
• large muzzle flash that negated any advantage of concealment
• feed reliability issues related the resulted in stovepipes, fail to eject, and failures to extract

 

[max popenker]

I suggest rereading what I said. I never said the 7.62x41 was a rimless cartridges. Note the missing "r" designation --i.e. Rimless-- that we are all familiar with in 7.62x54r

What I said was, that according to Ruslan Chumak's history of the sks, the 7.62x41 produced too much recoil in testing with Soviet soldiers.

Yes, rimless/rimmed was my own mix-up, sorry
However, on the 7.62x41 / 7.62x39 part of the story I prefer the 4-volume treatise on ammunition for military small arms from Dvoryaninov. The whole idea of the 7.62x39 was to keep chamber dimensions and ballistics of the x41 cartridge, but with the cheaper steel-cored bullet.

Are you not familiar with Chumak's history of the sks?

if you mean THIS ARTICLE, you should re-read it more carefully, because it describes earlier SKS-31 variant in 7.62x54R, not in the 7.62x41. The latter was ready for field trials only by mid-1945.