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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Gentlemen. I have a M1 Garand that was built specifically to handle the 190gr projectile, and only that one. This rifle is intended to be a 1,000 yard High Masters rifle in that it is one of the only three triple pillared Garands ever built by Don McCoy. This one is as yet unfired. The other two have numerous Grand Master titles at Camp Perry since the builds, and therein lies my problem.


All three only fire 190gr projectiles, and the cases must be fireformed and fed carefully, by hand, one shot at a time into the chamber. Those 190s are getting very hard to come by and I'd like to use 150's for the fireforming process. There is a plethora of pulled 150's from Jeff at GI Brass in the armoury, but the 190's are now like gold.


Knowing that Mr. McCoy set the rifle up for 190's with all of the pertinent parts built for those pressures, am I likely to have a problem with the op-rod firing 150's?


Any help appreciated. Note that I'm a long time, near anal reloader of competition rifles, but with no experience with the 190's and the Garand.


Thanks!




Read more: http://garandforum.proboards.com/thread/556/load-data-search#ixzz2z958AiRy
 

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I don't know the answers to your questions, but everything I've read says the M-1 is very specific in timing for proper operation, and messing with it, with faster/slower powders, heavier/lighter slugs, will cause problems, from non-ejection to slamming the op rod to smithereens.

With the specific set up you have for your long range rifle-I'd leave it be, pay the piper, and do what you have to do to shoot it the way it was designed/set up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I should have been more descriptive. I have many thousands of pulled 150's, but the 190s are like gold now. ALL the brass for this rifle must be fireformed and then neck sized only, each round fed carefully by hand into the chamber. The brass is the problem at the moment. I don't want to fireform with those 190's. The 150s I'd like to use just for that purpose, but I'm concerned about that op-rod. I'm pretty sure that if I bulid the volicity to the 190 specs I'd be "ok", but the dwell time won't be the same, ergo..... my hesitiation.
Milprileb I'll check email now. Thanks!
 

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Midway has both the 190 SMK and the Nosler 190's in stock .. running at about 35 cents to 40 cents a bullet.. hand loading makes that cheaper than buying milsurp ammo... Why would you even want to shoot pulled 150's out of a rifle set up like that? To take a custom match rifle and use it for sloppy plinking to save 25 cents doesn't make sense to me, much less possibly damaging something.

just an opinion But pulled surplus bullets are going to shoot like pulled surplus bullets no matter how fine the rifle.
 

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If you use a lighter bullet with the appropriate powder I suspect the only thing that might happen is short cycling.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Midway has both the 190 SMK and the Nosler 190's in stock .. running at about 35 cents to 40 cents a bullet.. hand loading makes that cheaper than buying milsurp ammo... Why would you even want to shoot pulled 150's out of a rifle set up like that? To take a custom match rifle and use it for sloppy plinking to save 25 cents doesn't make sense to me, much less possibly damaging something.

just an opinion But pulled surplus bullets are going to shoot like pulled surplus bullets no matter how fine the rifle.
AmmoSgt, with all due respect, sir........ Did you actually read my post?? Why would I want to send a couple hundred rounds of 190s downrange just for fireforming??
 

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AmmoSgt, with all due respect, sir........ Did you actually read my post?? Why would I want to send a couple hundred rounds of 190s downrange just for fireforming??
because I think you know that is what the guy who built the rifle recommends ? just guessing here .. and I googled all the other forums this very question got posted on ?

So you know what the load and procedure is.. have the video explaining the rifle.. and you want somebody to give you permission to do something different.. sounds like Daddy said no, so you are asking Mommy. There are as you say, only three rifles.. how hard is that to check?

Just google "Dan McCoy Garand 190 grain" and Bob's your uncle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
With all due respect, sarge........... It was posted on one other forum.
For anyone else, this is what we're doing.

I was able to reach Don McCoy's protoge of some 15 years and he was with Mr. McCoy when these three rifles were built, and he filled me in on how to
handle the fireforming for this rifle. Cast 190s from wheel weights from the 80's but we use a formula that requires a % of additional Antimony to each 10 lbs. My Dad bought a 20 pound bucket of Antimony from the Mfg. many years ago. 20# because that was the minimum back then. The factory is just 55 miles away from us in Thompson Falls Montana. The most difficult part is reducing one of the rocks to a smaller size and then pulverizing that smaller rock. The Antimony wont mix and blend unless it's virtually a powder. Melt/blend point is 1100 degrees.
The hardness tester gives us a BH reading of 21. It probbly wouldn't have been a leading problem anyway because of the hardness factor, the Impact Coating process and the HBN treatment allowing a shorter dwell time in the bore with a reduced pressure, so we have to rework our data to get the load up to the required pressure.
We're good to go.
 

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well, you asked .. not like you can't just buy the alloy or blend up an alloy, no rock crushing required ( que the drama! dang) , water quench or heat treat to 21 Brindel or use a gas check .. Midway will make a bullet mold for IIRC 50 bucks if there isn't one. Linotype does 22 BHN easy. that and alox , and I would use a gas check.. but that isn't some impossible feat requiring rock crushing http://www.rotometals.com/Antimony-s/1.htm $13 for one pound

No need to get dramatic.. I was just answering your question sheesh.. try and help a guy out. and this is the thanks you get.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Buying bulk Antimony is far, far cheaper than buying the ready product. We have a mold, it didn't cross my mind to substitute lead for FMJ. It should have, but it didn't. Please accept my deepest, sincere apologies for not seeing the obvious. And no........... quenching is NOT necessary. It does nothing to the cast projectile at all other than speeding up the cooling..... and no........ no gas check required for fireforming.

Sarge, I'm a very experienced reloader and caster. I didn't see the obvious this time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Ok Sarge. We're good. Lets drop this, but not in a quenching bucket.
And selected alloys is the key term.
Thanks Sarge.
 

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And yet.. now you have an economical way to feed your rifle properly after all these years ( 15 years you say, amazing) , with the proper ammo and the proper techniques and no risk to a rare Rifle and no modifications required.

You are welcome.

And you got the right answer because I researched the issue ( to much time on my hands, not really, more like I was really interested in getting you the right answer) I knew the maker told you to use only 190 grains when you developed doubling with 175 SMK's because that was what the rifle was designed for.. and while your exact question here may have only been posted on 1 forum, the info needed to properly answer your question was spread out over a few others.

So yes I know you knew the right answer all along, and I appreciate your expertise on reloading for Swiss Rifles and often recommend it to others as well as benefit from it myself. I just didn't know you were so sensitive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Sarge, once I have 200 cases fireformed, it will be a very long time before this rifle sees lead again.
Sarge, these are a few shots of the McCoy.











Comparison with an issue M1


 
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