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Discussion starter · #41 ·
Hey Mark! Got your PM (will let you know).

Seems you have done what I have thought about the pistol. A secondary side arm. Truck gun, car gun, bedside gun, walk around the property gun, all the above. The GAP is a good round and if you like the Glock platform as I do it makes for a good combination.

If things get bad and you are overrun by zombies.....Just shoot your stash of ammo and grab your 1911, Sprinfield XD, Tuarus or whatever. *bigchuckle*

Draybo (got bullets? OK......Once fired brass??)
 
You kids are just silly.

Some hard facts for the haters.

You will never fit an ACP in a 9mm sized gun. When GAP is loaded to its SAAMI spec it hits real ACP +P speeds. S&B even has a 230 grain load at 940 fps because they do not down load it to ACP psi. DT GAP loads hit ACP +P speeds.

I have a little over 3,000 rounds down range from mine. ALL bought at stores in stock on the shelf. When the stock gets low the stocking fairy twinkles her nose and 2-5 boxes turns into a full shelf. A guy that works at the store I bought mine from asked where I get ammo for it. I turned and grabbed 2 boxes of GAP price waaaaaay over ACP prices by $1.00 a box. He works there looking at it every day, every day since the store opened (gotta look kids, its there).

With 34% less pressure the GAP launches a heavier bullet than the 40 FASTER. The 200s in 40 are even slower than the GAPs 975 to 1020 fps. 230s can be had upto 940fps. I even found some 260s, within SAAMI pressure limits at 1050fps.

Lets see here GLOCK sells less 10mm GLOCKs than GAP GLOCKs, He has never given up on that gun, even in the mid to late 90s when the G20 was the ONLY 10mm in town.

A 5'4" troopette can shoot a 12" LOP shotgun just fine, so can a 6'4" gorilla (getting it yet?) My short fingers can not get a proper grip AND place my finger proper at the same time on every ACP out there.

Police need to outfit every officer with a gun that all can shoot. Not issue guns for the gorillas and tell the others to deal with it. So now you have a 9mm size gun that shoots a 45.. BLASPHEMY you say. It is not an ACP, good lord already, get over it!!!!

Now keep in mind for this next part kids. The ACP has a 98 year head start so keep that in mind when you read this next part. Of the 11 state agencies that issue 45s, five of them are issued GAPs. that leaves the ACP with a dominating lead of one department. No worries though kids, the GAP is taking the numbers from 9mm and 40 cal guns.. phew...

Big whoop if a new caliber hit the streets. If your old timer hands cann't handle the newfangledness of a 45 that fits a 9mm size gun that shoots an original spec the JMB first designed his 45 to do, then don't.

I have bought (more than, I have a good stock) 3,000 rounds and fired them with only 100 rounds being bought online. That was when my wife bought me two boxes of HSTs for an overly way too high price of $27.00 for 50 rounds. Just unreal how much more it costs than ACP..

I say stop, drop and roll!! You are getting all fired up over nothing. It threatens not the ACP or you. Put that fire out, gather yourself and say, "cool and neat idea, good to see technology is catching up with the times" and keep shooting a lesser 40 or an equal ACP.

Not only do I have my cake, I eat it too. That $1.00 more a box price is worth it, or $60.00 more for 3,000 rounds. Why heck, if you cut just 30 Monsters from your diet that makes up for it. And from the responses here, some of you are drinking more than the daily doasge warned on the can.

I will leave you with a pic of my G37. They do not get like that from shooting ammo that is not being made and can not be found.






Automotive tire Vehicle Car Personal luxury car Automotive design


The GAP aint even hit a stable number yet. It keeps on going up and up and up. I can see the natives standing around that 4,000 year old tree in Australia when it was a bud. One says "it is just a sapling, it will die in this desert" another says, "it hasn't even grown up yet, how do you know this?"

Answer me the question of how you know the GAP is an answer to a question not asked when it is DOA is an answer to a question you guys have no clue how to answer.
 
....................... Number one regarding the GAP.... It is a reloaders proposition and may I add a reloaders "deliight". No longer are the old pressure limits of .45 ACP data relevant. Stonger brass an NO MORE Glock bulge! Yehaw!! Did you hear that. No bulge so that means the cartridge is meant to be reloaded for this chambering without "issues".
The easy cure to the Glock bulge is to NOT own a Glock, the inadvertent discharge KING bar none. Haven't and won't own one. Oh and if I can't stop it with a "old and slow" 45 ACP, I should have brought a rifle.
 
Boris, I don't see any "haters" here, mostly ambivalence and disinterest. I think that's the core issue concerning the marketability of the cartridge.
Very true. There is little if any direct 'hate'. But there is plenty in the indirect form through misinformation being given based either on opinion or lack of knowledge.

The main one is the supposed lack of ammo and the super extra cost associated with shooting and purchasing the caliber. I have five mom n pop stores within 10 miles and three big box stores within 10 miles of my house that sells it. The Cabelas will sell it out the day they stock the weekly 2,000 rounds they put out. The sportsmanwarehouse down the road stocks even more and has 2-5 boxes left before more poofs on the shelf.

What people here need to take from this is someone who owns and shoots a 45GAP pistol is informing your ammo is on average $1.00 more a box than ACP. I am also reporting it can be found. To be honest I could not tell you how the 40 is doing, I dont even look for the ammo. Only store I do see alot of it is at walmart, the reason I see it there is because you have to bend over the counter to look at the boxes to see the caliber behind the glass. Just imagine how much I would get chopped up if I declared 40 cal is nowhere to be found based on the fact I am not even looking for it.

Too many people like to report what they think or report on something they are not even looking for or even buying, let alone shooting.

Maybe, just maybe everyone should listen for a second. Listen to those that own and operate one. In case you have not heard yet. 45GAP can be found at stores on the shelf. The average price is $1.00 more a box. The guns shoot great and have caught on very fast in seven short years. They also need to realize that just as much the GAP is not for them, the same goes for 45ACP for me and 40 S&W. ACP guns are some of the bulkiest, most unergonomic pistols made. The 40 has 34% more pressure than the GAP, is slower, cann't shoot a bullet as heavy, has more blast and more snap jump recoil or what ever you want to call it and does nothing more than the 9mm can while holding less ammo. If I wanted 45 'power' in a 9mm I would just........ oh wait, I already fixed that issue for myself....

Yep the ACP and 40 might be more popular and might always be. Good for them then. No need to put down the GAP though based on no knowledge of what some people have typed here. The info is just plain false. Remember, thats coming from someone who KNOWS what they are typing. i own and shoot one.

Take out of it what you want, but do some research before posting misinformation or expect someone to come along and square you away....
 
......................Maybe, just maybe everyone should listen for a second. Listen to those that own and operate one. In case you have not heard yet. 45GAP can be found at stores on the shelf. The average price is $1.00 more a box. The guns shoot great and have caught on very fast in seven short years. They also need to realize that just as much the GAP is not for them, the same goes for 45ACP for me and 40 S&W. ACP guns are some of the bulkiest, most unergonomic pistols made. The 40 has 34% more pressure than the GAP, is slower, cann't shoot a bullet as heavy, has more blast and more snap jump recoil or what ever you want to call it and does nothing more than the 9mm can while holding less ammo. If I wanted 45 'power' in a 9mm I would just........ oh wait, I already fixed that issue for myself........
Yeah, while you are at it listen to the people running hybrid cars. Spending big bucks for a system that will never pay for itself or live for long because the technology is a "feel good" fill in for doing something that will really help the environment. People who fall for the fads, should never be listened to. They are the reason for Bobo being in the White House, and you can see what that got us. The GAP is another one of the Great Salesman Gaston's ideas that he has conceived to make himself rich. First and formost is the Glock pistol. He would also make a great used car salesman, because the truth is not something he uses when selling his wares.
 
Yeah, while you are at it listen to the people running hybrid cars. Spending big bucks for a system that will never pay for itself or live for long because the technology is a "feel good" fill in for doing something that will really help the environment. People who fall for the fads, should never be listened to. They are the reason for Bobo being in the White House, and you can see what that got us. The GAP is another one of the Great Salesman Gaston's ideas that he has conceived to make himself rich. First and formost is the Glock pistol. He would also make a great used car salesman, because the truth is not something he uses when selling his wares.

Interesting..

Now that there folks is an answer to a question never asked if I ever seen one....
 
I guess I'm a simpleton. In handguns I run .22LR/.22 mag, .38/.357, .45 acp, and 9mm. All those work fine for me. If I was hunting big stuff with them I reckon I'd have some .44 mags, but a .357 and a really hot .45 acp will take down a hog. But, I'm not a combat pistol afficienado, so I'm rather boring. BTW, I also like all the light fixtures in my house to take regular ole light bulbs or those crazy curly long lasting eco-friendly bulbs.

In short, I think many consumers of such products are like me. And as the .45 GAP is not perceived to be any real improvement over the .40 or .45 acp, and can't be loaded as hot, which is in plenty of packages I think are compact; and whereas I can load down a .45 acp to be chick friendly (as long as they keep their wrists stiff); and whereas my 9mm XD SC with 13 is my back pocket concealed pistol and I trust it plenty, well, I'm just not sold on the incremental improvements of the GAP to make me go out and buy one, particularly if the ammo dries up. I'm quite sure the GAP has alot of merit and don't doubt your specs. There just isn't enough merit there for simpleton me.
 
According to wikipedia the 45gap speer gold dot 230grn GAP does 230 gr (15 g) Gold Dot JHP 935 ft/s (285 m/s) 447 ft·lbf (606 J)
According to Magtech the 45acp does
Bullet Weight: 230 GR
Muzzle Energy: 518 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity: 1007 fps


So if the same bullet weight and 45acp is the better performer, why would we spend more on a gap? Of course the 45acp is +p and the gap is not, but magtech doesnt make +p in gap. I'm assuming the gap platform is damaged by +p rounds?
 
Very true. There is little if any direct 'hate'. But there is plenty in the indirect form through misinformation being given based either on opinion or lack of knowledge.

The guns shoot great and have caught on very fast in seven short years.
I like that part the best.

The guns have "caught on" so "very fast" in "7 short years", that, in it's heyday, a few years ago, it had 2 firearms manufacturers chambering firearms in it, and only ONE now, the one who invented it, and how long that one will keep it up, is anyone's guess (Except Mr. Gaston Glock).

".45 G.A.P. is here to stay!" :?


In my research, it seems that about a half-dozen companies are making guns chambered in .357 SIG, so I DO need to retract my "putting them both in the same boat". :(
 
According to wikipedia the 45gap speer gold dot 230grn GAP does 230 gr (15 g) Gold Dot JHP 935 ft/s (285 m/s) 447 ft·lbf (606 J)
According to Magtech the 45acp does
Bullet Weight: 230 GR
Muzzle Energy: 518 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity: 1007 fps


So if the same bullet weight and 45acp is the better performer, why would we spend more on a gap? Of course the 45acp is +p and the gap is not, but magtech doesnt make +p in gap. I'm assuming the gap platform is damaged by +p rounds?
+P is actually a SAAMI-defined pressure level for SOME cartriges, but by no means all cartriges. 10mm has no +P designation, nor do .40 S&W or .357 Mag., I have no doubt that the LACK OF popularity with the GAP round, has produced zero need to +P it in any form.

+P+ is ENTIRELY un-official, in ANY incarnation it is in.


Here's a nice article on it:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/demystplusp_0306-7/
 
I guess I'm a simpleton. In handguns I run .22LR/.22 mag, .38/.357, .45 acp, and 9mm. All those work fine for me. If I was hunting big stuff with them I reckon I'd have some .44 mags, but a .357 and a really hot .45 acp will take down a hog. But, I'm not a combat pistol afficienado, so I'm rather boring. BTW, I also like all the light fixtures in my house to take regular ole light bulbs or those crazy curly long lasting eco-friendly bulbs.

In short, I think many consumers of such products are like me. And as the .45 GAP is not perceived to be any real improvement over the .40 or .45 acp, and can't be loaded as hot, which is in plenty of packages I think are compact; and whereas I can load down a .45 acp to be chick friendly (as long as they keep their wrists stiff); and whereas my 9mm XD SC with 13 is my back pocket concealed pistol and I trust it plenty, well, I'm just not sold on the incremental improvements of the GAP to make me go out and buy one, particularly if the ammo dries up. I'm quite sure the GAP has alot of merit and don't doubt your specs. There just isn't enough merit there for simpleton me.
That is exactly how I feel about ACP and 40. Thanks for summing it up so well for me..
 
. I'm assuming the gap platform is damaged by +p rounds?
You also assume ammo is not made for it anymore. When SAAMI tested the GAP platform they tested it all the way up to 35,000 psi. The cases and guns did fine. What SAAMI left out of the report was the speeds they got at 35,000psi. But I bet recoil, blast and control of the pistol was brutal to control. SAAMI, not GLOCK decided the final loading psi and they decided on 23,000 psi, not GLOCK or ATK. Just imagine if SAAMI went with 27,000psi? Only con to that would be more recoil impulse to the shooter and blowing the ACP out of the water. That was not the intent though. The intent was 45 'power' in a 9mm pistol......
 
I would say that the GAP is going down the same path as the .41AE.

Even before the .41AE disappeared there was 5 or 6 different gun makers. The GAP had two makers, now it's one. People were saying hosanas and hallelujahs about .41AE, too. The only difference is that the GAP has been picked up by a handful police agencies. Once LE drops the GAP, there's no reason for the current ammo makers to continue manufacturing at the same rate for one gun maker.

It's only a matter of time before the GAP becomes a footnote.

I have a G20 and G23 with conversions for both. I like the Glock platform, perhaps I should buy a GAP as a collectors item. Just kidding :)
 
There would be nothing wrong at all getting one to collect.

I remember back in the day, 15 years ago when the GLOCK 20 was the ONLY 10mm being made. Ammo was a handloaders only gig or rarely found on the shelf. The local expertswere always gabbing about how GLOCK will no longer make the G20. 10mm IS dead. You will not find one anywhere next year.

Now look at it. Never went out of production. Gaston sells less 10mm GLOCKs than he does 45 GAP GLOCKs. Try and tell the 10mm guys, or even me, that it is dead dying gone. There isn't even a single large police force that issues it.

FWIW. I was watching the 41AE back in the late 80s to see where it would go. 10mm was launching factory 200 grain ammo at 1100fps. Factory 41AE launches a heavier 210 grain at 1150fps. The 40 S&W.. well it cann't even get a 180 grain within 150fps of the 41AE WITH a 30 grain heavier bullet.......

Just imagine if Gaston would have chambered the G31 for 356TSW. A round that came out about 6 months earlier than the 357SIG, has the SAME ballistics AND retains 9x19mm capacity.. hmm. After 1990 GLOCK and S&W had a good rivalry going on. No way Gaston was gonna stamp another S&W caliber on his guns..

I been in the shooting game for a minute now kids. Seen alot of trends go the wrong way. 41AE spanks the pants off the 40, from the same size guns. 356TSW was killed by Gaston when he flooded the market with the slightly newer and lesser capacity SIG caliber.

I been watching things since before the interweb was even around. I watched the 45 GAP for 5 years before I got one. I watched it year by year get stronger. It is just plain hard to believe people will say its dead, or will be nowhere in 6 months when they know nothing about it. Opinions are fine, just don't be hurt 2 years from now when it is even stronger in the market. Two years ago the same broken record was being played over and over and over on the forums. Same people are saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over. Yet two years later they refuse to face the facts. Makes a person look silly, and destroys a little credibility. Just how I see it....
 
That is exactly how I feel about ACP and 40. Thanks for summing it up so well for me..
And that's fine. But if I were a betting man, and I am, I'd say the .45 acp (and the 9mm), which has been around since before 1911, and is probably more popular than ever, will be one of the last metallic pistol cartridges on Earth. That's because it is an exceptional round. The .40 is a pretty solid round too, though I have very little experience with it. Gaston Glock HAD to chamber his pistols in .45 acp to compete in the market with every other manufacturer who offers multiple handguns in that caliber. Not only did ole Gaston have to make his pistols in .45 acp, but he had to redesign the 21 grip to accomodate the demand for .45 acp in a sensible grip. A tribute to the .45 acp is how many makers are churning out M1911 clones today (almost 100 years later) and all are making money at it, obviously. While you may feel the way you do about the GAP, the market doesn't seem to.

I'm sure GAP is a nice round. But I wouldn't bet any money that it will outlast the .45 acp or .40. I don't see police departments dumping their 9mms, .40s, and .45 acp for the GAP. Do you know of any? That general acceptance is what it is going to take to keep the GAP from being a specialty collector curiousity, like the .41 AE, etc.
 
I don't see police departments dumping their 9mms, .40s, and .45 acp for the GAP. Do you know of any?
FL went from the Beretta 96 40S&W to the gen4 G37
NY went from the G17 9mm to the G37
PA went from the Beretta 92 9mm to the G37
SC went from the G22 40S&W to the G37
GA went from the G22 40S&W to the G37

So as you can see folks, the GAP is of no threat to the ACP, just as I mentioned earlier. You can all wipe your brow now... Looks more to me like some departments want real 45 power in a 9mm sized pistol. Guess what? It can now be done. It is not that hard to understand.

There are 23 others that are local departments that I have found. In 2005 in Denver when police bought a 45, the majority bought the GAP.

I am a betting man too. But I will not just go to a horse track and bet on any ole horse. I will research it first. Like I said before. I watched it for 5 full years before I bought one. Now that I have it I am even more impressed by it. On top of all that my G37 I have (not my first GLOCK or only one) right now is the most accurate rack grade gun I have ever owned. On top of that the first time I loaded an empty case in a magazine to simulate a jam I got nothing but a click. It feeds empty cases. What more could I ask for?
 
Using the choices of firearms that PDs do as a good example is insane. They have a high rate of inadvertent discharges and are way less than knowledgeable about what is really necessary for service firearms. The PDs are worried about firearm retention, then buy guns that require the highest level of retention, which of course is stupid. If it wasn't for PD's poor choice in firearms, Glock would have perished. PD's were the first to fall in love with the wonder nines, even though there was no proof then or now that the caliber gets the job done (mainly because it doesn't and the proof is that most are going with 40 and above calibers now). Hell I've had two different cops that couldn't even clear a 1911, talk about lack of knowledge.
 
Using the choices of firearms that PDs do as a good example is insane. They have a high rate of inadvertent discharges and are way less than knowledgeable about what is really necessary for service firearms. The PDs are worried about firearm retention, then buy guns that require the highest level of retention, which of course is stupid. If it wasn't for PD's poor choice in firearms, Glock would have perished. PD's were the first to fall in love with the wonder nines, even though there was no proof then or now that the caliber gets the job done (mainly because it doesn't and the proof is that most are going with 40 and above calibers now). Hell I've had two different cops that couldn't even clear a 1911, talk about lack of knowledge.


Is that a rant? or an answer to a question never asked? looks lke both to me.

So then what you are saying is, based on your emotion, that people should not buy the 357SIG, 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP or 45GAP. They are all choices by more than one police department. Since we just eliminated all calibers in service today I will ask thee expert (you) a question.

Leave out any current gun issued and any current issued caliber. Since any police chosen gun was chose fully on insanity. What gun and caliber should all police carry?

Or is it that some facts being presented are not in jive with your feelings and opinions.

You can be honest, I wont laugh at you or bite back. Promise......
 
Civility. This is an objective discussion about gear, not our children.

Boris, thanks for that info on PDs and the GAP. Bear, I don't disagree re PDs, BUT we are really discussing acceptance and the market, not the merits of a cartridge. Hell, our military shot down the Brits' .280 cartridge of the 50s in favor of the 7.62 NATO, then we went to the 5.56 NATO, and guess what? We're finding the .280 was a great choice because we are sniffing in that direction. Regardless, sales of firearms in 7.62 and 5.56 are driven by military acceptance just as sales of civilian handguns are quite driven by "what the police use". The .45 acp and 9mm just happen to be very good cartridges, AND what the military and police use.

Most of the people here in this discussion, on both sides of the issue, are far and away more learned than the consumer. We are the minority and regardless of how good the 45 GAP is, if it isn't generally accepted and doesn't gets distribution, first through PDs, I don't think it will last as a major caliber. As for the Glock pistol, I no longer own one, now having XDs. My Glock 21 was as accurate as my Clark customized Series 70, and as reliable (at one third the cost and packing almost twice the capacity) but it felt terrible in my hand. However, the Glock is a great firearm, one of the top designs of all time IMHO. I should get a 19. My choice is personal due to "feel" and features subjective to me, accessories, spare parts, and familiarity (I like as few self defense firearms as possible so I know the go switches by instinct).
 
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