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It had better fidelity than VHS, yet died.

8-Track had better fidelity that cassette, due to wider tape (less "jamming together of the tracks) and double the tape speed (3 3/4 inch/sec vs. 1 7/8 inch/sec (again, less "crammed-together" tracks).
Maintaining head alignment was nightmarish, and the tapes wore themselves away internally (take one apart sometime and see the tape path). It died.

Apple/Macintosh Computers.
Better user interface (the GUI we all use, IBM still used "command line"), faster operation at same processor speeds, better video workings (state of the art for professional video editors, they don't use "PC", they use MAC, STILL).
Apple retracted all outside production licenses, Apple-only made them, while IBM gave them away to "clone-makers". No-one could find an Apple to buy, but wanted a computer, so bought an IBM (or clone), they were everywhere, and cheap.
 
Macs are destined to go the way of the G.A.P., is that what you're saying?
One major difference, Mac's have made a major comeback from just a "specialty niche tool".


GAP's, won't.


My above "Mac-history" is how Mac basically gave away the personal computer market in the late 1980's early 1990's.
 
45 GAP may be an excellent compromise and efficient round. Betamax had alot of benefits. It's a matter of commercial viability and appeal to market sufficient to sustain it. IMHO, it's not so beneficial to me over my .45 acps and 9mms to buy a weapon in that caliber. Without the pistol in .45 GAP I don't need the ammunition for it or magazines either.
 
45 GAP may be an excellent compromise and efficient round. Betamax had alot of benefits. It's a matter of commercial viability and appeal to market sufficient to sustain it. IMHO, it's not so beneficial to me over my .45 acps and 9mms to buy a weapon in that caliber. Without the pistol in .45 GAP I don't need the ammunition for it or magazines either.
Right there is the key.

Can it possibly appeal to a big enough market to sustain it profitably. If not, it's dead, and just doesn't know it yet.

IMO it will not "convert" any .45 Auto aficianatos, not doe to any "predjudice" (although, that'll be the claims made), but because those aforementioned that do not have "handgun fit" problems, won't see any valid need to change.

The 9mmP people like the 9mmP, are comfortable with it, it IS a "useful" round, and not that many of them "move up" to .45.

The .40 S&W shooters do not see much improvement in moving from .40 to .45, and, as much as I prefer .45, I agree with this. The exact same reason, in the opposite direction, has me not seeing any need to own a .40 AND my beloved .45's.

The only realistic market for .45 GAP is the shooter who has hands too small for a double-stacked ".45 Auto frame", but wants a stagger-mag .45 Auto, and that just isn't a big marketplace. Many folks whose hands are not quite up to the big stagger-mag frames holding .45 Auto just go Single Stack and learn to reload after 7, or 8, or 9 rounds, instead of after 10 (or 15). The next thing most thinking consumers do is see if ammo is available, and how much shooting their toy will cost them.
This last fact alone keeps a lot of people I know shooting 9mmP instead of .45, and has, several shooters I know personally, stopped them from shooting .40 S&W in IDPA competition and switched either way, down to 9P or up to .45 Auto.


You obviously think the niche that wants it is several times larger than I think it is.
I think if the niche gets any smaller, it'll be microscopic.

IMO .416 Barrett is an incredible cartrige.
It's ONLY means of long-term survival will be millitary procurement for incredibly long-reach sniping (beyond .50BMG).
 
Draybo,

Why throw your money away on an obsolete round? I have both 9mm black tip and 45acp hydrashocs and chose them both because of the price. After doing extensive research on ALL the handgun rounds I chose these because of AVAILABILITY....
 
Draybo,

Why throw your money away on an obsolete round? I have both 9mm black tip and 45acp hydrashocs and chose them both because of the price. After doing extensive research on ALL the handgun rounds I chose these because of AVAILABILITY....
It can't be obsolete, it's practically brand new! ;)


Ah, I just realized, "Here to stay!" must have been a typo.

He meant to say "Here to stay unavailable!".

Yea, that makes sense.

Don't sweat it Draybo, I use a computer program at work that, whenever it wishes to, on printed copy it drops words out of text on the screen, sometimes 1 or 2, sometimes a whole line. Really a pain in the behind when it's aviation-related maintenance reccord forms it spits out, and the FAA is kinda picky about not having missing words and such causing "confusion".
Thus, I know what it's like. Probably coulda fixed it with the "edit" function tho. :)
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
This has been a really fun post and I appreciate all the feed back!! Nice to see a good sense of humor abound.

Maybe it's kinda like the Carcano I inherited. Have way more tied up in reloading for it than it's worth. I'm both a handgunner and a reloader (that's fortunate huh!? *chuckle*) and enjoy the pistol and like the cartridge. I was stoked on it when it first came out. Got a Model 37 on the way. I did take ya'lls advice and have been ordering brass and enough loaded rounds for more empties as time goes on. I will admit I won't shoot it in a match that doesn't allow brass retrieval that's for darn sure!

I am also surprised KAHR or Ruger hasn't built anything around it. It is pretty tough to sell John Q a pistol he HAS to reload for.

Draybo
 
Reading about the 45gap and 357sig, I really wanted a SIG 2022 in 357 but after looking at my normal online ammo suppliers, none of them carry either round. Looking at my local shops out of 4 shops, only 1 carried both and of course they were more than a $1 a round! Crazy...
 
I am also surprised KAHR or Ruger hasn't built anything around it. It is pretty tough to sell John Q a pistol he HAS to reload for.

Draybo
They would, if there was ANY ammount of sales enough to make it a profitable venture.

Springfield made a pistol or 2 chambered for it, operative term MADE, no longer offered.

The ONLY source for handgun, is Glock.
The ONLY source for a carbine is, well, nobody.
Very few sources of ammo, adn what is there, is high-dollar.

Draybo, did you perchance start THIS thread over on thefiringline?
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=409138

No real need to read it, it's 5 pages of the same thing here.

"Haters" noting the guns are all but unavailable, the ammo is all but unavailable, what IS available is costly.
The "lovers" claiming that all REAL shooters reload, so ammo availability is a non-issue (bull-crap), that it'd help the round if some other makers would just chamber guns in it (wishful thinking, Springfield did, for a while, apparently didn't sell enough to justify the production line), even one "loader" claiming 15-grains of powder goes in ACP's and he could make +P GAPs if he wished to cram 20 grains of something in them (Glockade is heavy in this one) to compete with .45 Auto +P's, etc, etc, etc.

GAP fans proclaiming all manner of love for their baby, while the detractors are looking at legitimate suply issues killing the weapon, and the cartrige, because nobody wants it, except the Glockade drinkers who want .45 GAP to survive.

Someone did an ammo search on ammoengine.com, came up with 18 loadings, BUT, only 7 manufacturers, all but one being Self-Defence loadings, only ONE "target/range" type loading, from Magtech.

An apropriate quote from the thread:
If you distill that down, there's 7 manufacturers there. Not that it matters all that much, but that's pretty small.

And it looks like you have mostly defensive loads and only one (Magtech) target load offering. Most of these are specialty ammo makers like Double Tap, Guardian, MagSafe and Corbon. Magtech is the only generic range ammo maker listed. There's no Winchester Whitebox, Remington, UMC, PMC, etc. listed.


Someone noted another corpse of a round, the .41 Action Express, dead, gone, try finding ammo to feed your D.E. in THAT.
Noted tho, again, .45 GAP actually had 2 manufacturers at it's height, .41 AE had Tanfoglio, Beretta, Jericho, Magnum Research and Taurus making the guns with conversion kits available for Colt, Glock and Browning pistols. That's 8, and it's dead and cold.

Not a good sign...................................................................................
 
It's dead. We already had too many handgun rounds. And I speak as the proud owner of a pistol chambered in one that's been staggering along like a zombie since, oh, about 1960. If it wasn't for the old "shooting major" bullseye competitions and the Mexicans saying that 9mm and 45ACP were "military" rounds illegal for civilians my 38 Super Colt Commander would be out of luck.
 
The .45 GAP's only chance I see of making it, is if L.E. on a wider scale starts using it. Glock themselves maybe the only one that could keep it around if they aggressively market it to L.E. That then may get the ball rolling and other gun makers may take note. And the general public sometimes then follows suit with wanting what the cops use. But Springfield throwing in the towel already is not a good sign.
That COULD save it, is IMO the only way TO save it, but, 4 or 5 police deptments does not a "wide market" make.

The wonderful thing about this country, if enough people want something, that niche WILL be filled, by someone, sooner or later.

The opposite is also true, if someone creates something, no matter how "good" or how much the creator adores it, if no-one else likes, needs, or wants it, it's not going to survive.

The GAP was "fix" to slim down/shrink a GLOCK grip, and give the shooter .45 Auto.

The other pistol makers with double-stack auto, use steel magazines, much thinner than Glock's plastic, thus, all other things being equal (frame plastic thickness), the actual volume of the grip is reduced, without shortening the cartrige .140"

While looking up the case length (lazy, I hit Wikipedia, since GAP is not in my Hornady #6 manual which is next to me), Wiki CLAIMS that Para Ordinance is offering a .45 GAP chambering.

I just looked at Para's offerings, Wiki is wrong on this one.
Para DOES offer a lot of handguns in .45 Auto tho. ;)

Thought for a minuite you might have had a seccond mfr, but, to no avail.
 
I don't have a dog in this fight, since the GAP gives no advantage to me. I have no problem with a full size frame (until recently my holster gun was a double row .45 ACP, Para Ordnance P.14-45). The small handed shooters in the family have found 9mm or .40 cal to their liking, so the GAP is not on the list. To me it's the answer to a question I didn't ask.

That said, don't neccesarily count the cartridge out. Several years ago the 10mm was declared dead. When the FBI dropped the 10, and went with the .40 S&W, it was widely believed that the 10mm would dissapear. This nearly happened, with no guns in regular production, and very little ammo available. Now ammunition is being made by more manucturers (in some very efective loadings) and quite a number of gunmakers are chambering for it. The same could happen with the .45 GAP.

Robert
 
I don't have a dog in this fight, since the GAP gives no advantage to me. I have no problem with a full size frame (until recently my holster gun was a double row .45 ACP, Para Ordnance P.14-45). The small handed shooters in the family have found 9mm or .40 cal to their liking, so the GAP is not on the list. To me it's the answer to a question I didn't ask.

That said, don't neccesarily count the cartridge out. Several years ago the 10mm was declared dead. When the FBI dropped the 10, and went with the .40 S&W, it was widely believed that the 10mm would dissapear. This nearly happened, with no guns in regular production, and very little ammo available. Now ammunition is being made by more manucturers (in some very efective loadings) and quite a number of gunmakers are chambering for it. The same could happen with the .45 GAP.

Robert
Thing about 10mm is it gives INCREASED performance as compared to the load the Feebs found their wimpy lads and lassies required. Whereas the 45 GAP will, at best, equal the 45 ACP. No advantage gained for the the more expensive round, unlike the 10mm. And of course it doesn't have the cachet of having been designed and promoted with the connivance and blessing of Col. Jeff Cooper...
 
I solved the Glock 21 / gripping a 2x4 / bad angle for me issue by buying a SA XD Service in .45 acp, not going to a .45 GAP. I like the plastic pistol and it's good to have with my M1911s (none of which eat GAP) I was impressed enough to then buy an XD Service 9mm and XD SC 9mm. .45 acp is extremely forgiving in loading it, and I've loaded them light enough to where they just cycle the slide on my Clark customized Colt series 70, to the point that they blaze 200 gr. jhp heat, with extra flash and blast effect. What benefit does a .45 GAP have over a .40 and .45 acp other than nominally, on paper? That's a sincere question, but I'm not the only guy asking it, hence the death throws of the GAP (IMHO).
 
I solved the Glock 21 / gripping a 2x4 / bad angle for me issue by buying a SA XD Service in .45 acp, not going to a .45 GAP. I like the plastic pistol and it's good to have with my M1911s (none of which eat GAP) I was impressed enough to then buy an XD Service 9mm and XD SC 9mm. .45 acp is extremely forgiving in loading it, and I've loaded them light enough to where they just cycle the slide on my Clark customized Colt series 70, to the point that they blaze 200 gr. jhp heat, with extra flash and blast effect. What benefit does a .45 GAP have over a .40 and .45 acp other than nominally, on paper? That's a sincere question, but I'm not the only guy asking it, hence the death throws of the GAP (IMHO).
The reason the 45 GAP is moribund (as best i can tell) is NOT that people are asking your question(s), hambone. It is that they are getting answers and the answers are "it has NO benefit over a 45 ACP or 40 S&W in the real world - and costs extra".
 
Well Clyde, if the question AND answer causes marketing problems for the round then that aint good ;) I think if the only benefit is that it's a chopped .45 acp, that's a problem. A reason I like the .45 acp for reloading is there is alot of room to work with and put powder in. As you guys have noted here, good cartridges have died due to marketability. Didn't GAP really come out right before the "great ammunition crisis" that we're just coming out of? That probably didn't help.
 
Had aG37 and afella at the range let me try his 1911. traded the Glock for anew High Standard 1911 [Armscour] and also got a Colt. But when I saw the price for the G37 at Bud's I picked one up. Already had 3 boxes of Ammo for it have dies on the way. Now to locate brass and trade some LP pistol primers for SP. I'm not a big pistol shooter but I like to reload for most all the firearms I own. AS for the Glock it resides in my center console F250.
 
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