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The combat was the direct consequence of General Lothar Rendulic's scorched earth policy.
The first major battle between the Finnish and German forces in 1944 was Operation Tanne Ost in the Gulf of Finland.


I don't see that as being a traitor regardless of what many may say..... you need to walk in those shoes first. If you have you will understand my point.
For our American readers, I would love on your take on the cases of Benedict Arnold vs. Lauri Törni.


I’m contemplating selling all of these for the simple reason that I don’t collect anything I feel was used in action against the US. What’s your thoughts on this?
If you define Axis and Allied based on the countries that signed the Tripartite Pact and/or the Declaration by United Nations during the WWII, then Finland was neither. Do mind Finland was never in war with the United States of America.
 

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well arnold was just pissed he was not moving up fast enough for him. and the war was not going well for the americans at that time. he did go to england to avoid being maybe hung if he hung;) around.
 

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But they did fight against our ally.

The first major battle between the Finnish and German forces in 1944 was Operation Tanne Ost in the Gulf of Finland.




For our American readers, I would love on your take on the cases of Benedict Arnold vs. Lauri Törni.




If you define Axis and Allied based on the countries that signed the Tripartite Pact and/or the Declaration by United Nations during the WWII, then Finland was neither. Do mind Finland was never in war with the United States of America.
 

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The first major battle between the Finnish and German forces in 1944 was Operation Tanne Ost in the Gulf of Finland.
Yes: but this was Suursaari/Hogland Island, and the Germans invaded, or more accurately, attempted to invade and take over control of the island. The Germans attacked and the Finns defended in this time and place. Of unrelated interest, the Finnish defenders on Suursaari were armed with Swedish rifles and AR's. So this was Swedish M96 vs. Kar 98. The M96 won.




For our American readers, I would love on your take on the cases of Benedict Arnold vs. Lauri Törni.
Benedict Arnold could not have committed treason since at the time of his act there was no formally recognized country against which he could have been in treason. By the same token, every American rebel at that time was in treason to his king and country. And since the US Constitution prohibits ex post facto laws, Benedict Arnold cannot be adjudged a traitor.




If you define Axis and Allied based on the countries that signed the Tripartite Pact and/or the Declaration by United Nations during the WWII, then Finland was neither. Do mind Finland was never in war with the United States of America.
The USA did not declare war against Finland. So the Finnish legation remained. What I do not know in any depth is the extent of communication between the USA and Finland through this link.

Churchill bent to Stalin's insistence that the UK declare war on Finland. The Finnish legation moved to Dublin, and contact with the British government remained.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Benedict Arnold? Thorne...... After hostilities with the Brits...the revolution....the Continental Army and vols did not get defeated, then fight with the Brits against another entity...then that entity won and they fought 'for' them against the Brits.... if you think that our Rev and that period in Fin history is analogous that is some intellectual stretching.

When Finns joined Germany in the fight against Russia it was a very tenuous time.....Russia came very close to defeat and if that had happened and all of the resources and manpower were returned to the west what would the outcome have been......that's what the Finns supported ...for their own sake, I get that, but the second order of effects would have been as if they declared war on the allies.

I am not arguing what took place in that time...I am debating the why of Thornes actions and I get them.....countries often do what is right for survival but that is not always what may be considered 'right' morally if looked at without bias......Thorne was simply caught in that conundrum.

Interesting opinions on an abstract situation.
 

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For our American readers, I would love on your take on the cases of Benedict Arnold vs. Lauri Törni.
Arnold was a traitor in the worst sense – defecting only for narcissistic [& economic] reasons, as he did not get promoted fast enough. He gave secrets & had plans to surrender Fort West Point [for £20,000] that would have cut the USA in half, indeed having us lose the war, which was far from over. In British service, he was rewarded with £6,000, a guarateed generous pension, & his coveted new generalship - returning to his good fighting abilities, leading British troops, winning battles and murdering surrendered US POWs. That is a traitor to me.

Törni never fought against Finland, never killed a Finn. I doubt the Germans ever paid him well. Was he truly against Finland, as a true traitor, when he went off to Germany the get supplies & training? Hind sight is 20/20 - did all Finns really trust the armistice of 1944? Does any Finn trust Russia? How many felt there were Finns that might align with the Soviets and/or that a civil war might start? Was that Törni’s feeling? He wasn’t the only Finnish officer with such feelings. Were the Finns in the 27[SUP]th[/SUP] Jaegers in WW1 considered traitors as well?
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Alpino...I suspect many Finns that served with him felt he was not...I can't speak for them one way or another but Major General Uno Fagernas (whom he served under) wrote him a letter of recommendation in Sep '49 (after his conviction) when he was the General Officer of the Finland Central Military District. It starts out as 'This is to certify that.....' and then goes on to list his awards and what an excellent soldier and Officer he was...he also notes some of his exploits but qualifies him as cool, calm, and collected in combat and a natural leader....
I doubt men of his stature and position often wrote glowing letters of recommendation for traitors.
 

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But they did fight against our ally.
What is your reasoning for this? Finnish troops never engaged in combat with American troops, and there were U.S.-backed relief efforts (and attempts to raise military volunteers) for Finland during the Winter War. If you're hung up on the notion of "allies," I'd be interested to hear your perspective on the Cold War.

But hey, if you lose sleep over your Finn Mosins, I'll gladly take them off your hands.
 

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My thoughts are strictly WWII oriented, the Cold War has zero to do with this. I get Finland’s dilemma from prior to WWII through the end of WWII. I’ve read extensively on the topic and that’s why I wrestle with this. They did align themselves with Germany at one time, firing on US forces or not. For me that’s where the rub is.
 

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Our so-called Russian ally interned, i.e. imprisoned, US flyers that crash landed on Soviet territory during WWII. The USA never declared war on Finland
despite Stalin's and Molotov's insistence. Diplomatic relations were only severed in 1944, without further hostilities, and quickly reestablished again in 1945.
 

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Leon I’m well aware of US prisoners. To my knowledge Russia never, at least by intent, fired on US troops or aligned themselves with Germany once hostilities began. I do not consider both attacking Poland from different directions as be allied together. At the time Stalin was only doing what was in his best interest. That’s really my take on it.
 

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...At the time Stalin was only doing what was in his best interest. That’s really my take on it.
And we should respect that?!

As "Pukka Bundook" observed earlier, "You cannot experience history, it is in the past;
It must be read or studied."
 

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No, but I’ve never considered Russia an Axis country either. Prior to our entering the war, Russia was at war with Germany. They were an ally throughout the war. Finland for certain aligned itself with Germany.
 

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No, but I’ve never considered Russia an Axis country either. Prior to our entering the war, Russia was at war with Germany. They were an ally throughout the war. Finland for certain aligned itself with Germany.
Prior to our entry into the war, and prior to Barbarossa, the Soviet Union and Germany were subject to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Nonaggression Pact, certainly more fresh on the international stage at the time of the Winter War.
 

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Alpino...I suspect many Finns that served with him felt he was not...I can't speak for them one way or another but Major General Uno Fagernas (whom he served under) wrote him a letter of recommendation in Sep '49 (after his conviction) when he was the General Officer of the Finland Central Military District. It starts out as 'This is to certify that.....' and then goes on to list his awards and what an excellent soldier and Officer he was...he also notes some of his exploits but qualifies him as cool, calm, and collected in combat and a natural leader....
I doubt men of his stature and position often wrote glowing letters of recommendation for traitors.
If Mauno Koivisto, the late President of Finland, were alive it would be interesting to ask him this question and hear the answer- 'Was Lauri Torni a traitor?' After all, Koivisto was one of his companions on his guided tours of Russia.
 
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