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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Check out the Zf41 "original rifle" half way down the page, then check the price :D

http://usedguns.com.au/used_military_rifles.html#military_rifles

RC, cleaned off and sanded off butt numbers (not too obvious eh?), probably totally renumbered, and probably one of the recent repro Zf41 rigs. Original is obviously a word the seller does not understand or comprehend. And looks like an Israeli front sight hood too. All yours for $8000... Same seller sold an obvious from 50 yards fake M91/30 sniper recently too. I handled it with the buyer, and I had to tell him the sad bad news - he paid $2700 too (it was a Century export to Australia, mounted with repro mount, scope and bolt - not even very good repro parts)

And little surprise, the $7000 G33/40 is still available.

Prices on this sight are downright crazy, but unfortunately in some states of Australia, they are paying it.

The prices on the semi-autos reflects their extremely limited availability due to licensing restrictions.

I have bought 2 rifles off this site, but was EXTREMELY lucky to get them at decent prices (including my Portuguese M937 for LESS than a pitiful RC)



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Wow, that is bad, whoever did that was not even trying!

Do you only one picture to look at before deciding to pluck down your money for any of the items there?

Looking at the prices for the semi-autos makes me glad I live in the U.S., what does it take to own one in Australia?
 

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Vulch, can you post pics of the boinkery?
 

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It was the $300 AUS Enfield 308 magazine and $550 Turk Mausers that gave me the vapours.
 

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yeah Vulch i saw that one....was looking for somthing to spend my Christmas money on...and i have gotton a bargain or 2 on their.....but i laughed when i saw the R/C Sniper with sanded butt stock

do what i do....put the pressure on them...email the seller and ask for more pics.....post the pics on these boards and when its turns out to e bad......threaten to tell consumer affairs (if they are a business) it will either get taken down or someone will get a healthy discount.....trust me....ive done it.


but sometimes the seller will say something like "oh i dont have access to get any more pics" then you say well someone isnt going to pay that unless they get more pics....unless they are idiots

EDIT: just emailed him...will post the pics he sends
 

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I think the net prices have gone up since I started 5 or 6 years ago and it may continue. There are still good deals to be found but there are less and less.
Problem is, it IS possible to find some stuff cheaper locally but most gun show prices I see tend to be HIGHER than the net although I noticed in a couple cases they are lower. Problem is for many of us is we live in fairly small areas with limited selection and we just don't see much stuff. The internet brings the whole world to us. At least on some stuff. (Obviously controls on firearms.)
If you can find stuff cheaper locally, count your blessings. For many of us the stuff isn't available locally or it is not cheaper. And if there's fraud and deception involved, unfortunately, plenty of that to be found at pawn shops and gun shows as well.
 

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Nice

That is some funny SH!T. I could make a better repro in my basement with a bench vise and a hand brace. That stock has some interesting "character" by the SN.
 

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heres the story and some of the pics i got from the seller



Hello Matt,
thank your for your Email.

I will post the photos I currently have.

Should you require any additional photos, just email with the specific
areas of the rifle that you wish to see.

For info, the scope doesn't have the same number as the rifle,but in 20
years of
collecting, I have never heard of ZF41 sniper rifle with it's
issued/matching scope. (It's hard to get any type of German sniper rifle
with a matching scope)

The scope was with the rifle when I bought it years ago. I sent it to USA to
get cleaned and serviced so it can be used safely.
The scope is sighted 2'' high at 100 meters.

Apart from the scope and that the stock had been cleaned, the rifle is as
when the factory made it and when it was 'souvenired' at the end of the war,
by some Yank and taken back to USA.

Even the sling and the front sight hood are the original issued items which
is pretty rare as those 2 things were almost always missing.

In the close ups I'm showing that the various parts on the rifle are the
genuine, original fitted factory parts rather than non factory parts fitted
and re-stamped to make them look like they are original factory parts, as is
the case in about 99.9% of so called 'original' rifles.

That's the reason for the price.
Some people don't care if the rifle is all genuine and matching and those
rifles are much cheaper but the totally original, 'as issued' from the
factory examples are rare, highly collectible but also more expensive.

As a side note, the factory that produced this rifle, Mauser Obendorf Am
Neckar, Byf, produced a total just under 5 million and 160 thousand rifles,
of which only 86000 were sniper rifles, of various types, including the
ZF41.

No one knows how many survived the war but the going price in USA for an
ordinary (1 of 5 million plus K98 rifles) in all matching, original
condition is around US$2000.

I've seen genuine rifle slings go for as high as US$300 plus.

One more thing, whether you decide to buy it or not, I do stand behind what
I say and if the rifle is not in the condition I say it is, I will refund
buyers money (minus postage) when returned in the same condition as sent.

Regards,
Joe





















 

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The numbers look correct from what I see. Nothing jumps out as bad on the rail. Would need to see better pics.
 

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Check out the Zf41 "original rifle" half way down the page, then check the price :D

http://usedguns.com.au/used_military_rifles.html#military_rifles

RC, cleaned off and sanded off butt numbers (not too obvious eh?), probably totally renumbered, and probably one of the recent repro Zf41 rigs. Original is obviously a word the seller does not understand or comprehend. And looks like an Israeli front sight hood too. All yours for $8000... Same seller sold an obvious from 50 yards fake M91/30 sniper recently too. I handled it with the buyer, and I had to tell him the sad bad news - he paid $2700 too (it was a Century export to Australia, mounted with repro mount, scope and bolt - not even very good repro parts)

And little surprise, the $7000 G33/40 is still available.

Prices on this sight are downright crazy, but unfortunately in some states of Australia, they are paying it.

The prices on the semi-autos reflects their extremely limited availability due to licensing restrictions.

I have bought 2 rifles off this site, but was EXTREMELY lucky to get them at decent prices (including my Portuguese M937 for LESS than a pitiful RC)
Vulch and Wilhelm Gruber II.

I would like to straighten something out before I deal with your 'expert' opinions as to the originality and authenticity of the ZF 41 rifle.

1. I have NEVER EVER sold a PU rifle for $2700, bought from Century Arms. Period. End of story. Never happened.

I did sell a PU about 1 1/2 years ago, for $2500, genuine re issued after the war to Polish Army rifle and the buyer is still in touch. Where you got the crap about me selling a PU recently is beyond me. I suspect that you are confusing me with someone from Sydney.

2. This paragraph is for both you experts. Calling the rifle, quote, 'probably totally renumbered, and probably one of the recent repro Zf41 rigs' end of quote WITHOUT EVEN SEEING close up photographs, well what can I say. The saying, "better to be thought a fool rather than opening ones mouth and proving it" does come to mind, however I do notice that after seeing the photos, your stance somewhat moderates and Wilhelm Gruber II just disappears, full stop.

3. You keep stating that the stock is quote, ''the stock is DEFINITELY an RC or Yugo take-off" end quote. Just what you base that opinion on? Your expertise? Because someone somewhere sanded the stock for whatever reason and just about removed the eagles and waa 135 marks, apart from the butt where its just barely legible.

Are you suggesting that I did it? By the way, both the hand guard and the stock are stamped with the rifle number and, the font is identical to the font on the rifle. So what does that mean? I'm either the world's best 'faker' or we are back to the previously mentioned saying.

4.You say, quote, 'Original is obviously a word the seller does not understand or comprehend'. Really? What part of the word original, as applied to the description of the rifle did I misunderstood/misrepresented?

I mentioned sanded/cleaned stock which it had been but not by me and I suspect not for the reasons you are suggesting, and immediately we get the smirk, smirk, we know what's going on here, without even having seen photos of the rifle!

If someone removes a rust spot from the metal on a rifle, does that make the rifle not original, boinkered etc?

Are you implying that I'm blatantly misrepresenting(lying) about the condition of the rifle?

I've spent most of my working life catching people and putting them before Courts for doing that very thing and I don't take kindly to anyone suggesting that that's what I'm doing.

As for what I'm asking for it, as I've stated previously, apart from the sanded/cleaned stock the rifle is original, all matching and genuine in every respect, so that's the value I put on it. It really doesn't matter, whether someone buys it or not, at least it will give me an idea of it's 'real' value.

Perhaps you can point out the last 1 or 2, genuine, all matching ZF41 rifles in like condition, and the prices they sold for so I get a better indicator.

Lastly, there is a phone # on that add, you could have called, either of you experts, seeing as you had so many concerns about the rifle, but no, instead you chose to post a load of unsubstantiated rubbish. Well done, acted like a pair of responsible adults. (I'm assuming that you are adults)

PS please email, pm or phone in case I ommitted something in my response to your expert posts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Exact font dies exist to renumber anything. Means nothing that the stock "matches", yet has the tell tale RC sanded patch...

One of MY RC's stocks on the left, your stock on the right. Strange coincidence.

Quite a lot of ex-Zf '41 stocks turn up on the auction sites, so it's not an unfeasible situation. Take that in any way you desire.

If you want the hard, brutal, as I see it truth, this was a scopeless all matching Kar98k - possibly even the Zf '41 rear sight base is original to the gun but I have seen these swapped without ANY way to tell it was done that this is not a selling point - assembled to an ex-RC (or possibly Yugo rework) stock set, and scope and mount added as well.

As has been noted for many many years, the majority of Zf '41 rifles on the market today are made-up. My opinion, as hard and fast as you want to argue it, is that this is such a rifle. This is MY opinion, and I am entirely entitled to it.

I appreciate your retort, but I would like to see more evidence to support your assertation that this rifle is a totally original, as made by Mauser Oberndorf, Zf '41 sniper rifle, not merely words.



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Seems to me that all of the numbers should be in the same font. They do not appear to be so. I also believe that the subscript letter (I am thinking it is a small "n") should be on the trigger guard. I did not see it there.
 

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Looks like we are making some progress.

From, quote, "probably totally renumbered, and probably one of the recent repro Zf41 rigs"
end quote, to, quote, "this was a scopeless all matching Kar98k - possibly even the Zf '41 rear sight base is original to the gun", but to you the expert, that doesn't make it a ZF41 rifle, just a rifle with a ZF41 rear sight attached.

The following is equally an amazing statement but coming from you, it's just the norm.
Quote,"I have seen these swapped without ANY way to tell it was done" I just wonder, how did you know, that it was done? Must be the expert thing again.

The following is even better, quote, "As has been noted for many many years, the majority of Zf '41 rifles on the market today are made-up". end quote.

So, all you owners of ZF41 rifles out there, here you have it, your rifles are probably made up, and it doesn't make any difference if the numbers match because as we now know, quote,"Exact font dies exist to renumber anything" end quote.

What kind of proof could I possible provide to prove anything taking into consideration your "hard and fast opinion" in respect of this rifle?

I suspect, that everything I could show would be met with something similar to, quote,"I have seen these swapped without ANY way to tell it was done" end quote or, quote,"Exact font dies exist to renumber anything" etc, etc.

This is the other side of the stock, which your mate didn't put up. I know it doesn't prove anything, other than that the stock was stamped with an eagle and WaA 135, and all but this one were removed when someone sanded the stock.

What I find amazing is that the stock numbers inside the barrel chanel match the rifle (no sanding/re stamping etc visible inside) and by co-incidence the stock was for a ZF-41 rifle.

Talk about luck finding one of those, and all to fake a rifle, according to you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Excuse me Mr. Kralik, but I, nor anyone else here has accused YOU of having perpetrated ANYTHING. You are assuming and reading what you want into it - emotions!

As you say, the other stock means and shows nothing. That is fact. Many RC rifles still have perfectly clear waffenamts on the stock, or even removed ones. NOthing is unusual. Don't you not think though that it is perhaps odd that your rifle's stock on the left side exhibits EXACTLY the same sanded patch as the majority of reworked Russian capture rifles, as mine shows? The Russians added their own "serial" there, and a lot of them had an old one removed and a new one added - hence the sanded area as they applied another serial. If you want to ignore this, then that is your choice. Maybe you should look to whoever sold you this rifle...

Stock numbers internally same as rest of rifle. Good for you. I hope they are not the same font and size, because that would be a sure sign of fakery. And a lot of mid to late war guns have no serial in the first place, so adding one surely doesn't show any signs of sanding or boinkery. Again, look beyond what appears "obvious" (or oblivious)

Swapping rear sight collars is very easy and if done properly, shows no signs of having been done. NO WHERE did I intimate this WAS done on your rifle - just merely offered it as a possibility, but you assumed again. There are currently 2 original Zf 41 collars on auction sites on the web. They are available. You also took out of context all that I mentioned re my "thesis" on it's origins. I said POSSIBLY it was swaped out, but also POSSIBLY the collar is original to the rifle (and the rest restored) - where is the problem? I have already given credit to the rifle being matching, so let's think of possibilities. Or do you not want to?

Yes, exact stamps are available- this has been discussed widely here. Anyone with a modicum of skill CAN completely renumber a rifle to look right. Look for seller K98 on eBay. He's in Austria, and even has stamps for the scopes themselves. AGAIN I AM NOT SAYING YOURS IS!

And yes, it has also been discussed that a disproportionately large percentage of the Zf 41 rifles available are NOT original. That's just the truth. A fine craftsman in Germany and one in the UK were assembling perfect copies of these even 20 years ago, as well as a few in the USA (where you purport yours comes from). Most used original parts. (one has to remember the ZF 41 was not overly liked by the military, and many were retroverted.)

I am willing to accept the fact that the rifle is probably a matching METAL rifle. I am NOT willing to accept the stock is original to the rifle. And I believe the scope was added later by the guy that sold it to you.

You are entitled to your belief as to the validity of your rifle, as I am mine. I am not fond of the rifle, and have said so. As you say, nothing is likely to change my mind. That is probably fact.



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"Excuse me Mr. Kralik, but I, nor anyone else here has accused YOU of having perpetrated ANYTHING. You are assuming and reading what you want into it - emotions!"

Quote from your 1 st post.

"Same seller sold an obvious from 50 yards fake M91/30 sniper recently too. I handled it with the buyer, and I had to tell him the sad bad news - he paid $2700 too (it was a Century export to Australia, mounted with repro mount, scope and bolt - not even very good repro parts"

Are you now saying that you didn't write it?

"RC, cleaned off and sanded off butt numbers (not too obvious eh?), probably totally renumbered, and probably one of the recent repro Zf41 rigs."

Are you now saying that you didn't write that either, about a rifle you haven't even seen other than from a very obviously general photo taken from about 6 feet away.
Is that my emotions again?

Understand this, I do not seek your approval of this rifle, I know what it is and whether you believe it's real or not is neither here or there.

What I'm concerned about, is the way you dispensed your "hard and fast truth" including the false allegations that I have sold a faked rifle.

Furthermore, seeing as you are using my name in your post, you could have the decency to include yours.

PS: the fact that you chose to publish my name as well as falsely accused me of having sold a faked rifle, 'sounds' to me like defamation of character.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
That was an astonishing post. Full of just, well, stuff.

Sir, your name is on the web page the rifle is for sale from. It's open for everyone to see. YOU published your name - I just assumed that it was indeed your name, and you have now confirmed it yourself.

Now, we are talking TOTALLY the K98 Zf 41, and I had not mentioned the 91/30 PU since the first post, yet you are now assuming again I am mentioning the 91/30 in my subsequent posts? Intriguing. A guilty party by reason of defense will often times insert themselves into what they want to think they are being accused of. I HAVE NEVER MENTIONED IT IS YOU THAT DID ANY OF THE FAKING. I am NOT dismissing that someone else may have, and that perhaps, just perhaps you UNWITTINGLY / UNKNOWINGLY sold the rifle.

Your last "legal" line bears out some stipulations in so much as:
1. can you CONCLUSIVELY prove the validity of the rifle/s, and can refute my (ambit) claims, and
2. can you prove that I stipulated that YOU (not by reason of association, but exclusively YOU) did the fakery and sold the faked rifle/s.

And of course as mentioned, your name was already in the for sale advertisement. Therefore, it was not I that published your name.

The points of mine and of yours seem mutually exclusive and moot. I have stated my opinion, and you have in no way attempted to refute the questions other than to slight back at my opinion and belief. Hard facts override words.



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$300 run of the mill M44's? Build-your-own repro 91-30 sniper? Wow...
 
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