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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Originally Posted Franchi - 12/31/2003

There have been numerous posts recently on the 8mm Carcano, a few of the links to these posts are below. I have started this new post with my "opinion" which I saved from an old post.

I have a "paper work sheet" I made on these but don't have anyway to post it on the Forum, if anyone wants a paper copy or has a way to post it, let me know.
David Franchi [email protected]

Century M38 Carbine Broken Stock Special Update LINK
http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13212

8mm Carcano BOLT mods LINK
http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17689

More Century 7.9 M38's LINK
http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6569

The following is my "opinion" and info on the Italian made 7.9 (8mm) Carcano's. This is going to be a VERY long post, hope it doesn't get too boring. First part is a description of a non-import 8mm in my collection, will also have info on German made 7.92 cartridges and a comparison of an M88 clip to a Carcano (they can't be used) This info will be posted in a separate thread so this one won't get to long.
.
I have had this 8mm Carcano for quite a few years. It is an R E Terni 1941 XIX Model 38 TS carbine serial 6337 it is a little unusual for several reasons.
1) It is not a resent import and is not import marked.
2) It probably was never issued as the blueing on the receiver bolt guides is not worn, cartridge lifter/follower and trigger case hardening colors are not worn. It was not used for "drill practice" as the buttplate has minimal wear.
3) It has a (4UT) on the barrel (double struck) above the RE TERNI. The (4UT) is also on the underside of the rear sight.
4) The hole in the front band is not threaded for the cleaning rod and the lower side of the band is dimpled to hold the cleaning rod in.
5) Stock is re-claimed, the original serial number RB 2564 is lined out and the matching serial was added (with the same number dies), however the "RB" was not marked out.
6) The stock was probably made by "FNA" as it has their logo under the buttplate.
7) Although it could have been added at anytime it has the Italian "German style K98" sling which was also used on Italian sub-machineguns. If you have only seen "import" 8mm Carcanos you would be surprised how nice an original non-import carbine is. The finish is a high polish blue and is very nice with many of the smaller parts having a nice case hardening color. Stock is also nice with only a few dings. Other features are:
"S" on top of the receiver and bolt handle. Terni "Crown TNI" marking on the left side of the receiver. Underside of receiver is dated "41" with various other markings. Bolt handle marked "S", (FP), and "FNA". Rear sight is re-claimed, it is from a 7.35 rifle as a faint "5" can be seen after the "7.9" marking.
This is not unusual as the Italians used re-claimed barrels, sights, etc. on other rifles
.
I don't agree with the theory all the 8mm Carbines are post-war made for some Middle Eastern Country, some may have been but not all of them. If they are all post-war why bother to put a date and manufacturer on them? If they were clandestine, why date them at all? Why serial number and date the rifles, in order, from 1938 to 1942? I have 1938, a questionable 1939, 1941, and 1942 examples. If post-war made why not put the same "fake" date on all of them?
.
The 8mm barrels that are marked with a manufacturer and fascist date are NOT old barrel markings. They are old barrels with the markings ground off and new markings added. The old markings are sometimes barely visible and the new markings are deep. (This was also done with 7.35 carbines) So far I have only seen RE Terni carbines with a date etc. and one FNA 1938, all other FNA's are not dated. Most FNA's are blank, some are marked "FNA-B". I do have an FNA marked 38-XVI FNA-BRESCIA, serial number 993.
.
The later? made no manufacturer carbines could have been made during the war and post-war. There are at least three different serial/marking groups of these. I won't go into the variations here. If they were made only for "training" and for single shot use why notch the front of the receiver for "clip loading" If for single shot only why not just add a wooden magazine block like the Germans did on their 8mm H&K conversions? It is very hard to feed a round "single shot" without this wood block, the extractor jams on the rear of the round. Why make a "special" clip latch for a special clip? (the side is marked with an "S"). If these 8mm carbines were only trainers, not to be shot, why add the recoil lug in the stock? Why mark them 7.9 or 7.92? Why mark some the "S" on the receiver and bolt?
.
I also don't believe these were made under German occupation 1944/45 for the following reasons. The finish is to good, they probably would have been made single shot (wood magazine plugs) like the H&K rifles, some would have German "test proofs" and or inspection markings, they probably wouldn't have wasted time and material in this time period to make a run of these.
.
Where are the "special" 8mm clips?
Most of these carbines were exported to the Middle East. I would think the Italians would also have sold them the 8mm ammo and clips. Even if the Middle Eastern country decided not to use the carbines and broke down the 8mm ammo for use in K-98's etc. some boxes, cartridges, and clips should have survived. Where is it? Did they strip the ammo off the clips and toss them? Could be? This doesn't prove there were no clips? How many of you have heard of 7.92x57 produced in 1944 by the Germans in Italy? They did manufacture it, what happened to this ammo? Same as the Italian 8mm clips? I sure would like to know what happened to all the Italian made 8mm clips for these carbines, and the German made 8mm. Some should have been brought back by returning "GI's".
.
I did talk to a person who related the following on 8mm German H&K conversions which were repeaters, not single shot. "He said that the Germans did not use an insert clip but modified the standard clip.
He said that the "HK" that he had was modified in this way. His rifle had a permanent clip inserted into the clip well and the rifle was loaded one cartridge at a time. The clip was cut in half and then it was cut in half vertically down the spine. Then the two separate halves were attached to each side of the clip well allowing the spring to travel freely in between the two halves.
When a cartridge was inserted the two sides flexed out slightly, they were positioned slightly narrower than the 8m/m round, and then flexed back around the cartridge. This way the rounds were retained in the clip well while also being aligned with the chamber in the standard manner. He also stated that he has owned M.95 Steyrs modified in the same manner. The Germans modified some Steyrs to work with the standard 8m/m round instead of the rimmed round."
.
My theory on the Italian 8mm is: There was a contract in 1938, or so, for 8mm carbines. Some were made in 1938, and it was decided to produce them. Production stared and they were being produced into 1941/42/43 when "war needs" stopped production like the 7.35 rifles. Some were issued and they were found to be unsatisfactory or non-standard and were put into storage. After the war they were sold to "The Middle East" and additional carbines were manufactured to fill the contract (the reason for so many variations?).
Just my opinion.
David Franchi
---------------------
Russianblood

I always thought they were made for the Italian army sent to Russia to fight alongside Germans, Romanians and Hungarians, all of whom used 8mm rifles.
---------------------
Carcano

Brilliant posting, David ! Just what I was hoping for. I shall soon follow suit, with an addition on the "Terni-1941" series.

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
---------------------
DMala

I agree with the excellent summary provided by David, with the exception that I do not believe they were ever adopted by the Royal Army, but rather produced in a series of a several thousands for field tests (regiment level), along with some dedicated clips (maybe like the one published by Ron Azzi), and later dropped because found unsuitable for combat use. They were resurrected post-war for export to the Middle East.
------------------------
Anthony

It was stated in a web publication that arms purchasing agents ( Israeli Intelligence) purchased 10,000 M38S in 8mm stored at an RAF base in italy in 1945-46. However, once the contract for postwar K98k in 8mm was signed with the Czechs by the same Israeli agents they unloaded these guns they considered marginal at best.

In fact, it was stated they also sabotaged most of them and sold them to the arabs through straw middle-men. They realized they would soon meet the arabs in battle when the UN recognized Israel and they needed the cash, and also wanted an edge in battle.

I WOULD NOT SHOOT A CARCANO CONVERTED TO 8mm.

Anthony Fortino
-------------------------
Franchi

Re: The Carcano and Israel
http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/carcano.htm
.
The information on the 8mm Carcano's from that web site can't be taken as gospel. I wrote the Authors of that information site (Carbines for Collectors) and their information has no "hard" facts to back it up. Below is a copy of my e-mail questions and the replies I received.
_________________
.
QUESTION:
Hi Reine K Smith or Dan Reynolds,
Nice carbine site. Under the Italian carbines you might want to add the German "HK" 8mm conversion (under the Cavalry carbine section), the Germans converted Cavalry Carbines, M38 Short Rifles, and M41 Long Rifles. But for some reason no TS Carbines, maybe because the Italians already had their 8mm version and the Germans didn't like it? I have never been able to find out anything on the Italian made M38 TS and Cavalry carbines (produced in 1938 and 1940 -1942). I have been collecting data on these and researching them for awhile and the info stated (BELOW) by you is the first time I have seen any "history" on the Italian 8mm carbines.
Can I ask where you obtained this info?
Thanks for your interest. David Franchi
*****************************
The Carcano and Israel

by Dan Reynolds
Prior to the British with drawal from Palestine in 1948 Jewish agents were combing Europe for rifles. They were buying anything they could find. A deal was struck for 8mm Carcano carbines and they were stored on an airfield in central Italy which had recently been used by the RAF. This was a relay point for contraband being smuggled by air from Europe. In May of 1948 Israel declared its Independence and and was immediately invaded by the Arab Nations. By July a major arms deal was struck with Czechoslovakia for rifles, ma chine guns, ammunition, pistols, smgs, and aircraft. Nightly illegal flights from Bratislava in Slovakia in a Dakota (C-47) twin engine aircraft with phony RAF markings and radio call signs were refueling at the Italian air field before flying on to deliver the 98K type 8mm Mausers to Israel. Arab agents were at this time seeking to buy rifles for their forces and were duped into buying the Carcano's from the I sraeli agents as Israel no longer needed them. Some or many of them were tampered with so that they could not be of use once it was discovered that they would blow up. I also found out that the Brescia guns were never fully developed thus causing many failures. 10,000 were assembled to fulfill a contract even though they would not function correctly. Some of the 8mm were kept by the Israeli military and are marked with the Star of David, others bare Arabic writing but I do not know from which country as Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Syria and Iraq were all involved. Other Items of Interest
The British shipped a large number of captured Italian small arms to the Dutch in East Indies after 7 Dec.'41 as aid because they could not spare rifles or MG's of their own. A huge number of Italian small arms were floating around North Africa and Middle East that Arabs and Turags took from Italians or picked up from desert as they collapsed. These were smuggled south in Kenya and northeast into Arabia, Trans-Jordan, Palestine and beyond in the late forties as well as being used in Algeria, Morrocco and Tunisa by anti French movements up into '50's.
.
copyright 2003 RK Smith-Dan Reynolds
*******************************
REPLY:
From: [email protected]
(Erastus Church)
.
This story was told to me by a collector I met in a surplus dealer's loft in NYC not far from City Hall. It was just after the JFK death and it came up in conversation about the use of the Carcano in this event.
---------------
QUESTION:
Hi, Thanks for the reply. You don't happen to remember his name or how to get in touch with him?
Thanks, David Franchi
--
REPLY:
From: [email protected]
(Erastus Church)
.
Sorry, it was a long time ago. Only recall a first name, maybe Al or Alex something like this. Never saw him again. He would be quite old if still around today.
----------------------
tbaus

Thanks Franchi...We now know the story about sabatoged rifles is just that, one man's story,told in a loft, a man we cannot identify, with wild assertions that cannot be proven.... As a second part of my post... Has anyone noticed or written up the two different barrels on M38 TS 8mm Carcanos? I have a couple of the clearly marked Terni models. I also have a few unmarked except for Serial number models that have a different shape to the base of the barrel. These models have the rear sight placed further back. They also do not have an S marked on the barrel. I don't beleive these are previously used barrels, but new made barrels for 8mm. The stocks are marked with the same serial number as on these "new" barrels. The handguard on these is slightly longer to accomodate the rear sight being further back. Check out the pictures..




-----------------------
Franchi

tbaus, nice photo comparison.
"FNA" TS & Cavalry carbines (I have never seen a Terni with these features) have the feature of a longer handguard an rear sights located farther to the rear. The barrels usually aren't marked but sometimes are marked "FNA-B". Another odd feature on many "FNA" TS carbines is a larger barrel muzzle diameter which won't accept a standard Italian Carcano bayonet. "FNA" receivers are not usually "S" marked. David Franchi
-----------------------
tbaus

I didn't know about the muzzle diameter. Look at the part of the barrel behind the sight, where the round actually chambers. There is more metal here on the FNA TS. Wherein the Terni built rifle the thick part of the barrel beginning at the reciever goes about 1.15" down the barrel from the receiver, the FNA built one goes 1.4". Both are about the same diameter after the taper from the receiver threads ( a little over .9" in diameter). The Terni built rifle is like other Carcanos in the shape and length of the taper. The FNA ( thanks for the education) has a much slower taper and extends at least .35" further down the barrel, right up to the rear of the rear sight. More metal for the heavier round? Tom
---------------------
dan123

I have just aquired 2 of these near as i can tell it says 38-XVI on barrel
serial # G9758
R2
F.N.A. BRESCIA
---------------------
NebrHogger

I read with interest the reference to the M95 Steyr 8X57 conversion (M95M or M95/24)and how it might relate to the 8X57 Carcano. I have a few Steyrs on hand and removed the internal clip of an M95M just now to see how it might fit a Carcano.

Close but no cigar. The Carcano magazine is a few mm too narrow. I do not have an 8mm Carcano, but the various models on hand wouldn't work. Could all the 8X57 Carcano clips be oxidizing at the bottom of the Medeterranian somewhere? I doubt we will ever know. SW
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

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Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 05/04/2004 : 08:46:37 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "RA" subseries (plural, at least two of them exist) of the 8mm Moschetti TS "S" are interesting.

1. The first subseries was actually produced in late World War II, and it is the direct continuation of the previous Brescian production of the Moschetto TS 91/38 in 6,5 mm - the arsenal just continued the serial numbering, as we are now finding out. Most guns of this 8mm subseries are in the RA 90,000 range (beyond 95,000 or beyond 98,000, I believe).

Source: Grap's article in the DWJ, see the Carcano bibliography page on the website.

2. The second subseries continues anew with the same RA prefix, and most numbers seem to be under 1,000, always or often starting with a zero (like yours). One might suspect that they just started again with zero-one when the 100,000 were reached, but I somehow have the feeling that those are post-war production, in the same style. The late-war production under German supervision seems to have been a limited trial run, according to Grap. This also explains the new numbering after the war.
 

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Repost with dates

Author Topic
Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
368 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 2:34:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


There have been numerous posts recently on the 8mm Carcano, a few of the links to these posts are below. I have started this new post with my "opinion" which I saved from an old post.

I will try and post some photos of the variations seen on these 8mm carbines in a few days.
I have a "paper work sheet" I made on these but don't have anyway to post it on the Forum, if anyone wants a paper copy or has a way to post it, let me know.
David Franchi [email protected]

Century M38 Carbine Broken Stock Special Update LINK http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13212

8mm Carcano BOLT mods LINK
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17689

More Century 7.9 M38's LINK
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6569

The following is my "opinion" and info on the Italian made 7.9 (8mm) Carcano's. This is going to be a VERY long post, hope it doesn't get too boring. First part is a description of a non-import 8mm in my collection, will also have info on German made 7.92 cartridges and a comparison of an M88 clip to a Carcano (they can't be used) This info will be posted in a separate thread so this one won't get to long.
.
I have had this 8mm Carcano for quite a few years. It is an R E Terni 1941 XIX Model 38 TS carbine serial 6337 it is a little unusual for several reasons.
1) It is not a resent import and is not import marked.
2) It probably was never issued as the blueing on the receiver bolt guides is not worn, cartridge lifter/follower and trigger case hardening colors are not worn. It was not used for "drill practice" as the buttplate has minimal wear.
3) It has a (4UT) on the barrel (double struck) above the RE TERNI. The (4UT) is also on the underside of the rear sight.
4) The hole in the front band is not threaded for the cleaning rod and the lower side of the band is dimpled to hold the cleaning rod in.
5) Stock is re-claimed, the original serial number RB 2564 is lined out and the matching serial was added (with the same number dies), however the "RB" was not marked out.
6) The stock was probably made by "FNA" as it has their logo under the buttplate.
7) Although it could have been added at anytime it has the Italian "German style K98" sling which was also used on Italian sub-machineguns. If you have only seen "import" 8mm Carcanos you would be surprised how nice an original non-import carbine is. The finish is a high polish blue and is very nice with many of the smaller parts having a nice case hardening color. Stock is also nice with only a few dings. Other features are:
"S" on top of the receiver and bolt handle. Terni "Crown TNI" marking on the left side of the receiver. Underside of receiver is dated "41" with various other markings. Bolt handle marked "S", (FP), and "FNA". Rear sight is re-claimed, it is from a 7.35 rifle as a faint "5" can be seen after the "7.9" marking.
This is not unusual as the Italians used re-claimed barrels, sights, etc. on other rifles
.
I don't agree with the theory all the 8mm Carbines are post-war made for some Middle Eastern Country, some may have been but not all of them. If they are all post-war why bother to put a date and manufacturer on them? If they were clandestine, why date them at all? Why serial number and date the rifles, in order, from 1938 to 1942? I have 1938, a questionable 1939, 1941, and 1942 examples. If post-war made why not put the same "fake" date on all of them?
.
The 8mm barrels that are marked with a manufacturer and fascist date are NOT old barrel markings. They are old barrels with the markings ground off and new markings added. The old markings are sometimes barely visible and the new markings are deep. (This was also done with 7.35 carbines) So far I have only seen RE Terni carbines with a date etc. and one FNA 1938, all other FNA's are not dated. Most FNA's are blank, some are marked "FNA-B". I do have an FNA marked 38-XVI FNA-BRESCIA, serial number 993.
.
The later? made no manufacturer carbines could have been made during the war and post-war. There are at least three different serial/marking groups of these. I won't go into the variations here. If they were made only for "training" and for single shot use why notch the front of the receiver for "clip loading" If for single shot only why not just add a wooden magazine block like the Germans did on their 8mm H&K conversions? It is very hard to feed a round "single shot" without this wood block, the extractor jams on the rear of the round. Why make a "special" clip latch for a special clip? (the side is marked with an "S"). If these 8mm carbines were only trainers, not to be shot, why add the recoil lug in the stock? Why mark them 7.9 or 7.92? Why mark some the "S" on the receiver and bolt?
.
I also don't believe these were made under German occupation 1944/45 for the following reasons. The finish is to good, they probably would have been made single shot (wood magazine plugs) like the H&K rifles, some would have German "test proofs" and or inspection markings, they probably wouldn't have wasted time and material in this time period to make a run of these.
.
Where are the "special" 8mm clips?
Most of these carbines were exported to the Middle East. I would think the Italians would also have sold them the 8mm ammo and clips. Even if the Middle Eastern country decided not to use the carbines and broke down the 8mm ammo for use in K-98's etc. some boxes, cartridges, and clips should have survived. Where is it? Did they strip the ammo off the clips and toss them? Could be? This doesn't prove there were no clips? How many of you have heard of 7.92x57 produced in 1944 by the Germans in Italy? They did manufacture it, what happened to this ammo? Same as the Italian 8mm clips? I sure would like to know what happened to all the Italian made 8mm clips for these carbines, and the German made 8mm. Some should have been brought back by returning "GI's".
.
I did talk to a person who related the following on 8mm German H&K conversions which were repeaters, not single shot. "He said that the Germans did not use an insert clip but modified the standard clip.
He said that the "HK" that he had was modified in this way. His rifle had a permanent clip inserted into the clip well and the rifle was loaded one cartridge at a time. The clip was cut in half and then it was cut in half vertically down the spine. Then the two separate halves were attached to each side of the clip well allowing the spring to travel freely in between the two halves.
When a cartridge was inserted the two sides flexed out slightly, they were positioned slightly narrower than the 8m/m round, and then flexed back around the cartridge. This way the rounds were retained in the clip well while also being aligned with the chamber in the standard manner. He also stated that he has owned M.95 Steyrs modified in the same manner. The Germans modified some Steyrs to work with the standard 8m/m round instead of the rimmed round."
.
My theory on the Italian 8mm is: There was a contract in 1938, or so, for 8mm carbines. Some were made in 1938, and it was decided to produce them. Production stared and they were being produced into 1941/42/43 when "war needs" stopped production like the 7.35 rifles. Some were issued and they were found to be unsatisfactory or non-standard and were put into storage. After the war they were sold to "The Middle East" and additional carbines were manufactured to fill the contract (the reason for so many variations?).
Just my opinion.
David Franchi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Franchi on 12/31/2003 7:06:42 PM

Russianblood
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
484 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 5:40:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I always thought they were made for the Italian army sent to Russia to fight alongside Germans, Romanians and Hungarians, all of whom used 8mm rifles.


Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum



Germany
1040 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 6:32:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brilliant posting, David ! Just what I was hoping for. I shall soon follow suit, with an addition on the "Terni-1941" series.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano


DMala
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
570 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2004 : 3:26:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with the excellent summary provided by David, with the exception that I do not believe they were ever adopted by the Royal Army, but rather produced in a series of a several thousands for field tests (regiment level), along with some dedicated clips (maybe like the one published by Ron Azzi), and later dropped because found unsuitable for combat use. They were resurrected post-war for export to the Middle East.





Anthony
Gunboards Super Premium Member



330 Posts
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 01:01:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was stated in a web publication that arms purchasing agents ( Israeli Intelligence) purchased 10,000 M38S in 8mm stored at an RAF base in italy in 1945-46. However, once the contract for postwar K98k in 8mm was signed with the Czechs by the same Israeli agents they unloaded these guns they considered marginal at best.

In fact, it was stated they also sabotaged most of them and sold them to the arabs through straw middle-men. They realized they would soon meet the arabs in battle when the UN recognized Israel and they needed the cash, and also wanted an edge in battle.

I WOULD NOT SHOOT A CARCANO CONVERTED TO 8mm.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Fortino


Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
368 Posts
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 12:58:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: The Carcano and Israel
.
The information on the 8mm Carcano's from that web site can't be taken as gospel. I wrote the Authors of that information site (Carbines for Collectors) and their information has no "hard" facts to back it up. Below is a copy of my e-mail questions and the replies I received.
_________________
.
QUESTION:
Hi Reine K Smith or Dan Reynolds,
Nice carbine site. Under the Italian carbines you might want to add the German "HK" 8mm conversion (under the Cavalry carbine section), the Germans converted Cavalry Carbines, M38 Short Rifles, and M41 Long Rifles. But for some reason no TS Carbines, maybe because the Italians already had their 8mm version and the Germans didn't like it? I have never been able to find out anything on the Italian made M38 TS and Cavalry carbines (produced in 1938 and 1940 -1942). I have been collecting data on these and researching them for awhile and the info stated (BELOW) by you is the first time I have seen any "history" on the Italian 8mm carbines.
Can I ask where you obtained this info?
Thanks for your interest. David Franchi
*****************************
The Carcano and Israel

by Dan Reynolds
Prior to the British with drawal from Palestine in 1948 Jewish agents were combing Europe for rifles. They were buying anything they could find. A deal was struck for 8mm Carcano carbines and they were stored on an airfield in central Italy which had recently been used by the RAF. This was a relay point for contraband being smuggled by air from Europe. In May of 1948 Israel declared its Independence and and was immediately invaded by the Arab Nations. By July a major arms deal was struck with Czechoslovakia for rifles, ma chine guns, ammunition, pistols, smgs, and aircraft. Nightly illegal flights from Bratislava in Slovakia in a Dakota (C-47) twin engine aircraft with phony RAF markings and radio call signs were refueling at the Italian air field before flying on to deliver the 98K type 8mm Mausers to Israel. Arab agents were at this time seeking to buy rifles for their forces and were duped into buying the Carcano's from the I sraeli agents as Israel no longer needed them. Some or many of them were tampered with so that they could not be of use once it was discovered that they would blow up. I also found out that the Brescia guns were never fully developed thus causing many failures. 10,000 were assembled to fulfill a contract even though they would not function correctly. Some of the 8mm were kept by the Israeli military and are marked with the Star of David, others bare Arabic writing but I do not know from which country as Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Syria and Iraq were all involved. Other Items of Interest
The British shipped a large number of captured Italian small arms to the Dutch in East Indies after 7 Dec.'41 as aid because they could not spare rifles or MG's of their own. A huge number of Italian small arms were floating around North Africa and Middle East that Arabs and Turags took from Italians or picked up from desert as they collapsed. These were smuggled south in Kenya and northeast into Arabia, Trans-Jordan, Palestine and beyond in the late forties as well as being used in Algeria, Morrocco and Tunisa by anti French movements up into '50's.
.
copyright 2003 RK Smith-Dan Reynolds
*******************************
REPLY:
From: [email protected]
(Erastus Church)
.
This story was told to me by a collector I met in a surplus dealer's loft in NYC not far from City Hall. It was just after the JFK death and it came up in conversation about the use of the Carcano in this event.
---------------
QUESTION:
Hi, Thanks for the reply. You don't happen to remember his name or how to get in touch with him?
Thanks, David Franchi
--
REPLY:
From: [email protected]
(Erastus Church)
.
Sorry, it was a long time ago. Only recall a first name, maybe Al or Alex something like this. Never saw him again. He would be quite old if still around today.


tbaus
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
101 Posts
Posted - 04/11/2004 : 1:38:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Franchi...We now know the story about sabatoged rifles is just that, one man's story,told in a loft, a man we cannot identify, with wild assertions that cannot be proven.... As a second part of my post... Has anyone noticed or written up the two different barrels on M38 TS 8mm Carcanos? I have a couple of the clearly marked Terni models. I also have a few unmarked except for Serial number models that have a different shape to the base of the barrel. These models have the rear sight placed further back. They also do not have an S marked on the barrel. I don't beleive these are previously used barrels, but new made barrels for 8mm. The stocks are marked with the same serial number as on these "new" barrels. The handguard on these is slightly longer to accomodate the rear sight being further back. Check out the pictures..

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Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
368 Posts
Posted - 04/11/2004 : 5:27:52 PM
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tbaus, nice photo comparison.
"FNA" TS & Cavalry carbines (I have never seen a Terni with these features) have the feature of a longer handguard an rear sights located farther to the rear. The barrels usually aren't marked but sometimes are marked "FNA-B". Another odd feature on many "FNA" TS carbines is a larger barrel muzzle diameter which won't accept a standard Italian Carcano bayonet. "FNA" receivers are not usually "S" marked. David Franchi


tbaus
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
101 Posts
Posted - 04/11/2004 : 7:59:28 PM
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I didn't know about the muzzle diameter. Look at the part of the barrel behind the sight, where the round actually chambers. There is more metal here on the FNA TS. Wherein the Terni built rifle the thick part of the barrel beginning at the reciever goes about 1.15" down the barrel from the receiver, the FNA built one goes 1.4". Both are about the same diameter after the taper from the receiver threads ( a little over .9" in diameter). The Terni built rifle is like other Carcanos in the shape and length of the taper. The FNA ( thanks for the education) has a much slower taper and extends at least .35" further down the barrel, right up to the rear of the rear sight. More metal for the heavier round? Tom


dan123
Starting Member



Canada
5 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 10:12:16 PM
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i have just aquired 2 of these near as i can tell it says 38-XVI on barrel
serial # G9758
R2
F.N.A. BRESCIA


NebrHogger
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1943 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 05:10:23 AM
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I read with interest the reference to the M95 Steyr 8X57 conversion (M95M or M95/24)and how it might relate to the 8X57 Carcano. I have a few Steyrs on hand and removed the internal clip of an M95M just now to see how it might fit a Carcano.

Close but no cigar. The Carcano magazine is a few mm too narrow. I do not have an 8mm Carcano, but the various models on hand wouldn't work. Could all the 8X57 Carcano clips be oxidizing at the bottom of the Medeterranian somewhere? I doubt we will ever know. SW
 
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