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Diamond Bullet Member
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
In a recent post I mentioned that I have an original non-refurb 1929 Tula dragoon "transition rifle" in an original 91/30 stock. I use my Panshin bayonet on it.
An experienced member asked what made it a "transition rifle" and I realized I am pretty loose with the definition, as I also would call my non-refurb 1931 Tula 91/30 a "transition rifle."
To me, any rifle made in the 1929-1932 cross-over from M91 patterns to 91/30 patterns is a "transition rifle," particularly if it has features or parts of both rifles, but maybe I'm using the term too broadly.
My dragoon, with dragoon blade front sight and dragoon non-91/30 rear, has a 91/30 stock using 91/30 barrel bands instead of the solid Tula bands of a dragoon, and has 91/30 spring band retainers. That, plus the crossover year date, make it "transitional" to me. Am I right?
My 1931 Tula 91/30 has some old bolt parts and probably trigger parts, but full 91/30 format. Is that "transitional" enough?
 

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Diamond w/Oak Clusters and Swords Bullet Member
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To me, the term "transition rifle" implies that there is something in-between an M91, and a 91/30. That would be the Dragoon. The word "transition" means a change from one thing, state, model, to another.

"My 1931 Tula 91/30 has some old bolt parts and probably trigger parts, but full 91/30 format. Is that "transitional" enough?"

Well, my 1945 M38 has some old Izhevsk bow and arrow marked parts as well. Does that make it a transition rifle? My Tula M44 has a 1930's something hex receiver, is it transitional? See where I'm going?

Bottom line for me, I don't use the term because it's hard to define. They used what ever parts they had to assemble a serviceable rifle.

No offence intended, by the way. Just my thoughts and reasoning about the term. :)
 

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I usually think of 'transitional' as the Panshin stepped front sight and button bands. To me, those where transitional parts that were found to complicated/expensive to make (bands) or to prone to breakage or not the sight picture that the army felt was needed. Thus, they were quickly phased out in favor of simple bands and a hooded post.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I wasn't offended in any way -that's what these forums are about. I had never thought about the "transition" term that much before and kind of threw it around for anything in the gap of the changeover, which didn't take place neatly on a single day in 1930, of course, despite the 91/30 model name.
I think the difference in my original 1931 Tula's old parts from a refurb is that they were leftovers originally used to assemble it (I think), sort of like a 1961 Corvette with a factory installed earlier engine, not that such a thing existed. A refurb is a refurb, where a "transitional rifle" had to have used parts from both models.
I agree with you, the Dragoon is certainly an "in-between transition" but the 1931, except for a few small parts, is pure 91/30 in all key aspects.


To me, the term "transition rifle" implies that there is something in-between an M91, and a 91/30. That would be the Dragoon. The word "transition" means a change from one thing, state, model, to another.

"My 1931 Tula 91/30 has some old bolt parts and probably trigger parts, but full 91/30 format. Is that "transitional" enough?"

Well, my 1945 M38 has some old Izhevsk bow and arrow marked parts as well. Does that make it a transition rifle? My Tula M44 has a 1930's something hex receiver, is it transitional? See where I'm going?

Bottom line for me, I don't use the term because it's hard to define. They used what ever parts they had to assemble a serviceable rifle.

No offence intended, by the way. Just my thoughts and reasoning about the term. :)
 

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Why would a dragoon be an in between transition when they were making dragoons in the 1890's?
Unless you're talking about your 29 dragoon.
 

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OK. Only half the brain working.
Thanks.
 

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Diamond Bullet Member
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I was talking about my 1929 Dragoon with 91/30 stock, but the 1926 big transition toward the shorter 91/30 by way of the Dragoon replacing the M91 is certainly as "transitional" a four years as you can find. The 91/30 is basically just an improved Dragoon.
QUOTE=jbsx;2113050]Why would a dragoon be an in between transition when they were making dragoons in the 1890's?
Unless you're talking about your 29 dragoon.[/QUOTE]
 

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I usually think of 'transitional' as the Panshin stepped front sight and button bands. To me, those where transitional parts that were found to complicated/expensive to make (bands) or to prone to breakage or not the sight picture that the army felt was needed. Thus, they were quickly phased out in favor of simple bands and a hooded post.
I'm with pioneer. That was always my understanding of a transitional 91/30.
 

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...the gap of the changeover, which didn't take place neatly on a single day in 1930, of course, despite the 91/30 model name.
That's my point. There were lots of things changing on into 36? Receivers, bands, nose caps, band springs, bolt bodies, interupter/ejector assembly. The total transition took 6-7 years, more if you add the changes done during war time. That's what I mean by the term is hard to define.
 

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I usually think of 'transitional' as the Panshin stepped front sight and button bands. To me, those where transitional parts that were found to complicated/expensive to make (bands) or to prone to breakage or not the sight picture that the army felt was needed. Thus, they were quickly phased out in favor of simple bands and a hooded post.
In the context of this thread, you hit it.

Early 91/30 is a more correct term, though noobies might think this means ex or converted Dragoons.
 

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As I understand the term:
Dragoon-barleycorn front sight, arched rear sight, solid bands.
Transitional-stepped blade front sight, flat rear sight, button bands.
91/30-post and globe front sight, flat rear sight, split bands.
What did I forget?
 

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In the context of this thread, you hit it.

Early 91/30 is a more correct term, though noobies might think this means ex or converted Dragoons.
I usually think of 'transitional' as the Panshin stepped front sight and button bands. To me, those where transitional parts that were found to complicated/expensive to make (bands) or to prone to breakage or not the sight picture that the army felt was needed. Thus, they were quickly phased out in favor of simple bands and a hooded post.
I agree here, and it gets closer to my thinking. At what point in time, from the first 91/30 off the line, did the "transition" end. And what features on the rifle make it "transitional". I think that's what Stalin is asking, and what I find hard to define.
 

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As I understand the term:
Dragoon-barleycorn front sight, arched rear sight, solid bands.
Transitional-stepped blade front sight, flat rear sight, button bands.
91/30-post and globe front sight, flat rear sight, split bands.
What did I forget?
Hex to round receivers, low wall to high wall receivers...but that is my exact thought process, transitional in my mind refers to the early 91/30's, the late dragoons to me are just late dragoons, as they are the same as the earlier ones except for maybe the markings and handguard.
 

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Hex to round receivers, low wall to high wall receivers...but that is my exact thought process, transitional in my mind refers to the early 91/30's, the late dragoons to me are just late dragoons, as they are the same as the earlier ones except for maybe the markings and handguard.
1. There are late date Dragoons 1929 - 1932 - Solid handguard band. These used a M91 style bayonet

2. There are early 91-30s with a tall blade front sight 1931-33/34? with button bands for the handguard. These used a Panshin bayonet. I would really like an example of a Tula and Izhevsk rifle from this time, as I have the bands and Panshin bayonets but no rifles.

3. Standard 91-30 that most of us know.

Pahtu.
 

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1. There are late date Dragoons 1929 - 1932 - Solid handguard band. These used a M91 style bayonet

2. There are early 91-30s with a tall blade front sight 1931-33/34? with button bands for the handguard. These used a Panshin bayonet. I would really like an example of a Tula and Izhevsk rifle from this time, as I have the bands and Panshin bayonets but no rifles.

3. Standard 91-30 that most of us know.

Pahtu.
There we go. Now, would transitional mean features from both #2 and #3?

By the way. I have a Finn 1923 Tula Dragoon that takes a standard 91/30 socket bayonet.
 

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There we go. Now, would transitional mean features from both #2 and #3?

By the way. I have a Finn 1923 Tula Dragoon that takes a standard 91/30 socket bayonet.
I try to stay away from the term transitional, but that is how many distinguish the differences between the two styles of sights and barrel bands on the 91-30s.

Dragoon bayonets IIRC from what I have seen and read could have the hammer and or star for Tula(depending on when they were made). Late manufacture Izhevsk Dragoon bayonets could have the triangle with arrow.

Yes, 91-30 bayonets can fit on the Dragoons.

Pahtu.
 

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Transitional is the time frame when the decree in 1927 to modernize the rifle 1891-30 and the end of the implementation of those changes in 1931-32. They included new hand guards, stock fittings and sights both front and rear updated to the use of meters as opposed the the older antiquated arshini. So a transitional rifle would be one showing some of these changes dated between 1930 and 1931 as they were not implemented until that time.
 

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Transitional is the time frame when the decree in 1927 to modernize the rifle 1891-30 and the end of the implementation of those changes in 1931-32. They included new hand guards, stock fittings and sights both front and rear updated to the use of meters as opposed the the older antiquated arshini. So a transitional rifle would be one showing some of these changes dated between 1930 and 1931 as they were not implemented until that time.
:D ...thread killer ;)
 
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