[kaydee]

I am legitimately curious, do you feel that it may be more effective to focus more on teaching inmates valuable skills and trying to persuade them that a fulfilling and responsible life is an attainable goal, or should we simply focus more on pure punishment? To me it seems that simply locking someone in a hole with other terrible people and letting them fight it out isn't going to induce the change that we're looking for in the lives of these men, many of whom never knew any other way, but I don't have the first hand experience that you do.

Saturn,
I worked at Soledad, CA, Level 4 Prison. We had Level 1 through 4 inmates at four different Facilities locations. We had Vocation Training from education (for higher level of education high school and above) Furniture construction, Catel for the milk used in prison which included calving, making of the prison uniforms and shoes. We tried everything to rehabilit the inmates. Which at times it seemed like a waste of time to rehabilate the inmate but it supplied the Governmaent with a means for prison unifoirms furniture, and other items. We also had Fire Fighting teams that assisted the Forestry Department in fighting wild fires. All of this was supervised by Correctional Officers and a Sergeant.
Some inmates on there return went back to work at the same shops.

 

[vintovka]

While it's easy and certainly feels good to simply wish this boy dead, he didn't end up killing anyone and while certainly he deserves punishment for this crime I hope he learn his lesson and turns his life around. Given his involvement in heavy crime like this at such a young age there's a very good chance he was born and raised into a world that most of us probably couldn't imagine, surrounded by nothing but crime and degeneracy. One of the best men I've ever met was a mechanic who taught me a lot early in my career, he had spent 3 years in prison for theft and drug dealing, when he got out he completely dropped all criminal activity and went on the straight and narrow, working every hour he could. He was raised in the worst neighborhood in the city with no father and a sickly mother that he was taking care of from the age of 16, which is a large part of why he began stealing in order to keep bills paid and his mother medicated. Today he's an excellent mechanic, a wonderful father, and a devoted husband. He warned me many times about the dangers and pitfalls of the world of crime and drugs, though I was already on a path far from those things. I hope this boy ends up with a similar story.

Sorry should have been euthanized after first event. Given current population this will not only be acceptable if may be necessary for survival.

 

[Str8pull]

Saturn,
I worked at Soledad, CA, Level 4 Prison. We had Level 1 through 4 inmates at four different Facilities locations. We had Vocation Training from education (for higher level of education high school and above) Furniture construction, Catel for the milk used in prison which included calving, making of the prison uniforms and shoes. We tried everything to rehabilit the inmates. Which at times it seemed like a waste of time to rehabilate the inmate but it supplied the Governmaent with a means for prison unifoirms furniture, and other items. We also had Fire Fighting teams that assisted the Forestry Department in fighting wild fires. All of this was supervised by Correctional Officers and a Sergeant.
Some inmates on there return went back to work at the same shops.

Lets face it this type of scumbag has no interest in actually working for money in order earn an honest living, they would rather steal someone else's hard earned money

 

[Clyde]

Lets face it this type of scumbag has no interest in actually working for money in order earn an honest living, they would rather steal someone else's hard earned money

Possibly, or it may be he simply sees (and has never seen) any honest way to earn valuata. And, of course, with his current record, he is right. Even in Austin, not gonna find many (likely any) who would hire him. Would you?

 

[vintovka]

"waste of life"

 

[Baltimoreed]

If you can turn a young thug around on his first or second offense while he’s still in school, stay in school and you don’t go to jail, or go to boot camp, great but after hes been through the ‘justice’ system umpteen times and been brutalized by his fellow thugs he is damaged goods and will probably never turn around. In truth he was damaged to start with. The Scarred Straight program was a great idea but I don’t know if it’s even done today.

 

[vintovka]

In truth he was damaged to start with.

This. second chances mean second chance to harm/kill someone. There are too many humans to worry about scum like this. Govt knows this and why the world is turning to fecal matter.

 

[Str8pull]

Possibly, or it may be he simply sees (and has never seen) any honest way to earn valuata. And, of course, with his current record, he is right. Even in Austin, not gonna find many (likely any) who would hire him. Would you?

Maybe so, but he wasn't born with a record, some people are just born lazy and are always looking to make an easy buck without having to work hard for it, be it by scamming people out of their money like a con man, or by dealing drugs or other contraband, or...if not having the brains for that, then by robbing people at gun or knife point. I'm sure we all have met or know of someone who falls into one of these categories.

 

[Saturn]

What is the cost of The Extent and Costs of Crime Victimization: I could not find and easy answer but it is a lot and stopping is better than do nothing choice.
So what can do that is better for society is him costing society as little as possible in resources.
Put them in prison
To kept them in prison for a year and figure $20,000 x 30 years = $600,000

State	Prison population	Average cost per inmate
Florida	100,567	$19,069
Georgia	46,145	$19,977
Hawaii	6,063	$29,425
Idaho	8,120	$22,182

A capital murder trial


If a citizen or cop kills them, it is the cheapest overall cost to society.

I'll ask the same question I asked someone else, if he's in the situation he's in right now, where he did not kill anyone and he's in prison, would you yourself be able to look at him and kill him yourself right now, knowing that he, at 17 years old, didn't kill anyone else and his future is unknown. Could you do it? Could you do it with your hands if you didn't have a gun or a lethal injection or an electric chair? Furthermore, if the robber is instead a cop with a badge and gun kicking in your door to confiscate private property (such as an unregistered MG) which is protected by the constitution that he swears to uphold and defend, and he's doing it just because he's told to or because he thinks rights are suggestions, is it ok to kill him too? Because I'd say that what he's doing is even worse than this kid and yet there are many people who would fault you for resisting his supposed "authority" let alone killing someone trying to steal your property.

 

[barnetmill]

I'll ask the same question I asked someone else, if he's in the situation he's in right now, where he did not kill anyone and he's in prison, would you yourself be able to look at him and kill him yourself right now, knowing that he, at 17 years old, didn't kill anyone else and his future is unknown. Could you do it? Could you do it with your hands if you didn't have a gun or a lethal injection or an electric chair? Furthermore, if the robber is instead a cop with a badge and gun kicking in your door to confiscate private property (such as an unregistered MG) which is protected by the constitution that he swears to uphold and defend, and he's doing it just because he's told to or because he thinks rights are suggestions, is it ok to kill him too? Because I'd say that what he's doing is even worse than this kid and yet there are many people who would fault you for resisting his supposed "authority" let alone killing someone trying to steal your property.

This discussion is nearing the point of it being used to red flag someone in the near future.

 

[Clyde]

This discussion is nearing the point of it being used to red flag someone in the near future.

Indeed.

As to whether I personally could (or would) walk up to a caged criminal and put him down - no. For a number of reasons. One, not the public executioner acting under color of law. Two, he isn't a danger to me or mine at that point. Three I did enough killing in Vietnam long ago (not much, a matter I thank God for) to let me know that casually killing people is not something I will do, have to have a better reason than he will be a risk for committing villainy at some future point.

 

[vintovka]

This discussion is nearing the point of it being used to red flag someone in the near future.

Soon (if not already) just being a member on Gun Boards forums will be a red flag and used as evidence in court.

 

[Saturn]

This discussion is nearing the point of it being used to red flag someone in the near future.

Yes apparently it's a massive red flag to not agree with murder of offenders of non-capital crimes or to suggest that a common robber is no better, and perhaps worse, than rampaging police officer acting not under actual law but the false color of law and purposely and knowingly infringing on the guaranteed rights of citizens he's supposed to protect and uphold the rights of. Apparently this is a controversial stance, we should all just bow our heads and try to see how far we can get the boot down our own throat while decrying the non-capital non-treasonous crime of armed robbery as something now punishable not by long imprisonment or military service but instead by death. That's madness in my eyes, agents of the state are thieves, robbers, murderers, and liars when they enforce laws against the right to keep and bear arms and yet they are held up and lauded by many communities including members of this one. If a 17 year old born into a life of poverty and crime deserves to die for armed robbery, then I can only imagine what those here must think of someone who pretends to be a guardian of the people and their rights and yet commits the same offences with false legal protection behind him, I imagine the punishment for someone such as that can only be found in tortures from medieval times according to the many folks here? Surely whatever it is must be a date worse than death as the crime is more heinous?

 

[barnetmill]

Soon (if not already) just being a member on Gun Boards forums will be a red flag and used as evidence in court.

I did recently quit posting on a forum that advocates some extraordinary things that were getting into the realm of terrorism against BLM. With inventiveness of democratic law making, one really does not know what will happen to some internet posters.
Basic principle is to never advocate committing an illegal act. There are some that have stated on the internet that when the pistol brace final rule comes down, they will not obey it. Would it be grounds for legal action under NFA?

 

[eastbank]

i will not cry for any armed robber getting shot, wounded-killed while commiting the act. true he didn,t kill any one this time due to the armed victim, so we will never know what would have happened if the victim was not armed. i will not accept waiting to see if the perp would leave me alive or not and would shoot him as soon as possible.

 

[Clyde]

Yes apparently it's a massive red flag to not agree with murder of offenders of non-capital crimes or to suggest that a common robber is no better, and perhaps worse, than rampaging police officer acting not under actual law but the false color of law and purposely and knowingly infringing on the guaranteed rights of citizens he's supposed to protect and uphold the rights of. Apparently this is a controversial stance, we should all just bow our heads and try to see how far we can get the boot down our own throat while decrying the non-capital non-treasonous crime of armed robbery as something now punishable not by long imprisonment or military service but instead by death. That's madness in my eyes, agents of the state are thieves, robbers, murderers, and liars when they enforce laws against the right to keep and bear arms and yet they are held up and lauded by many communities including members of this one. If a 17 year old born into a life of poverty and crime deserves to die for armed robbery, then I can only imagine what those here must think of someone who pretends to be a guardian of the people and their rights and yet commits the same offences with false legal protection behind him, I imagine the punishment for someone such as that can only be found in tortures from medieval times according to the many folks here? Surely whatever it is must be a date worse than death as the crime is more heinous?

1. Shooting (and wounding or killing) an armed robber while he is engaged in a felony offense while armed is NOT murder. It is a lawful act and murder is the unlawful killing of a human being.

2. Whatever your attempt to equate a police officer acting within the scope of the law with a criminal engaged in an UNLAWFUL act with no color of law at all may fit YOUR view of the way things are in YOUR moral universe - but they are NOT what our society has determined to be the case. One (resisting a criminal then engaged in committing an offense) is deemed lawful (at least here in Tejas) and the other (resisting a cop in enforcing a law) is not. Take him to Court and get the judges to agree (heck, might even get the Supremes to go along and have another NYS Rifle & Pistol decision, eh?). If the law is bad, that is a matter to take to the legislature and/or the Courts.

We had an example of that "take the bad law to the Legislature" here in Tejas a few years ago. For many years (like at least a century), Texas prohibited the carry "on or about the person" of handguns (and a variety of other things, like swords, dirks, Bowie knives, etc.), with various exceptions. Finally enough people told the lawmakers that needed to change and we got licensed concealed carry, followed recently by unlicensed concealed or open carry most places (not the Courthouse, dammit).

 

[henrybucki]

SMART PEOPLE GROW OLD thugs die young

 

[David Murvihill]

Is there any evidence that the recidivism rate for a reformative prison system is any lower than that for a Punitive prison system? The US had both long enough there should be statistics if someone wanted to look for them.

 

[sigshr]

On an episode of "The Five" Judge Jeanine said she had so many drug offenders who took prison over rehab-"They want drugs!"

 

[Clyde]

Is there any evidence that the recidivism rate for a reformative prison system is any lower than that for a Punitive prison system? The US had both long enough there should be statistics if someone wanted to look for them.

I can't recall any (at least during the 30+ years I packed a Bar Card). Can recall a number of articles and things on that subject, but cannot recall any that found much if any differences. There were some studies offering examples of programs that seemed to do better, but man they were all things involving a LOT of education, counseling, etc. during incarceration, followed by follow-up with help getting a job, counseling, etc.. Very expensive, though it is argued that it is cheaper to spend the money that way than in cops and jails and all that sort of thing. Not sure.

I tend to think that catching them young and giving a short, sharp lesson might be worth trying (probably the LAST group that ought to get probation is the young, first time offender).