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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
T-99, T-38 and Type " I " Accuracy (an old thread)

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Printed on: 09/13/2007


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Topic author: kfields
Subject: T-99, T-38 and Type " I " Accuracy (an old thread)
Posted on: 09/08/2003 12:23:10 PM
Message:

T-99 accuracy (read 212 times) By popular request before the board changed to the new format, it was suggested that we keep this thread from being lost. Any other requests?


kfields
Premium member
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posts: 343
since: Jul 20, 2002 1. T-99 accuracy


The thread below comparing T-38 and Type I accuracy is interesting. Mag appears to have test fired a lot so I was wondering if he and others would comment on how accurate they have found their T-99's to be. Are any of the T-99 rifle manufacturers inherently more accurate than others? Early or late? How about Series? Size of groups, type of ammo used and loads would be interesting reading. I don't currently reload but I would like to. Consequently I end up scrounging Norma ammo at the gunshows. I haven't shot all of my T99's yet but I do favor an early Series 20 (sn 13,187) that is all matching, nice condition and has the lightest trigger pull of the bunch (except for a Series 30 I have that I haven't gotten around to shoot) and shoots well for me. I believe it is capable of some extremely small groups with the right ammo and the proper amount of patience on my part. Thanks in advance!
Date: Aug 13, 2003 on 10:44 p.m.

mag 2. Re:T-99 accuracy


I have test fired about 300 T-99's now. All my friends think that I am too weird spending so much time with them, I just seem to be drawn to them for some reason. What I post is just an average, there will always be the exception. I have found the Nagoya's and Toyo Kogyo's to be the best shooters. The main thing you have to remember is the big peep sight does not lend it's self to accurate BULLSEYE shooting. Every now and then I get "in the groove" and see the sight picture the same every shot, and get good groups. There are alot of one shot flyers caused by not having the same exact sight picture. Chrome bores like velocity, late non-chrome will do better with out. PLUS it is safer not to shoot high pressure load in later guns. Finding a gun that will shoot to point of aim with a perfect center hold is hard, when you try to use kentucky windage you get in trouble. The best is a gun that will shoot poa with you using the ladder peep. it is smaller. Mainly early guns shoot better [ but I do have very late guns that do great ] Long rifles almost always shoot well. The best load in the most guns is: Hornady 150 sp, 40.0 of I-3031, bullet seated with the whole grove showing above the case neck. Our club has had many Arisaka matches, we had to also add a 7.7 ONLY match as they can not shoot with the T-38's. We are having our next WWII Pacific match the 2nd sunday in Sept, Arisaka's VS the US, Brits, Dutch and Aussies. the last 3 matches the Japs have won. You are all invited to come and shoot, it is in Texas. There is a killer M-1903 gunning for my defending champ T-38. The T-38 has shot perfect 100's on a 2" 10 ring at 100 yards. mag
Date: Aug 14, 2003 on 01:56 a.m.

Eloldehombre1
Premium member
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posts: 573
since: Dec 29, 2002 3. Re:T-99 accuracy


Do you find there is as big a difference in the bore dia. as the books clain or is it in someone's method of measuring and othere aauthors have reported without checking?
Date: Aug 14, 2003 on 10:20 a.m.

mag 4. Re:T-99 accuracy


It is about the same as any other rifles + or - specs. .311 to .3145. K-98's run .3225 to .326. The better the bore matches what bullet you are useing the better it will shoot. The usual loading tricks that work with a big bore K-98 do not work with a CHROME big bore jap. mag
Date: Aug 14, 2003 on 06:42 p.m.

kfields
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posts: 343
since: Jul 20, 2002 5. Re:T-99 accuracy


last updated at Aug 26, 2003 01:55 p.m. (1 times)
Mag, You mention the best overall load for T99's to be Hornady 150 sp with 40 grains of I-3031. When shopping for the bullets, do I also need to shop by bullet diameter as well and if so which one? Probably not the smartest question however I have not been a reloader in the past but am looking to start and have a friend who will get me going. I now have about 200 empty Norma cases and most were shot through the same Kokura series 20. Thanks for the feedback!
Date: Aug 26, 2003 on 01:54 p.m.

mag 6. Re:T-99 accuracy


The Hornady 150 sp [flat base ] is .312, and that is as big as you can get. Most other makers 7.7mm bullets run .3105 to .311 . That is why the Hornadys are best. Only a gun with a really tight .311 bore will do as good or better with a boatail, like the 174 match. The 40.0 of I-3031 with the H-150 shoots best in about 250 of 325 7.7mm T-99's. So the odds are it will shot in yours, also it rarely shoots BAD. mag
Date: Aug 26, 2003 on 08:20 p.m.

kfields
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posts: 343
since: Jul 20, 2002 7. Re:T-99 accuracy


Thanks Mag. I'll print the reloading details off this time. Kim
Date: Aug 26, 2003 on 08:45 p.m.

Navybuff
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posts: 701
since: Jan 10, 2002 8. Re:T-99 accuracy


Mag, along the same line but a little to the left. Have you noticed any difference in the headspacing from one arsenal to another. Or the same arsenal later in the production line when time meant more rifles? Also, is anyone at the time making 7.7 head space gauges? I've only seen one set of clymer (Spelling) sell on Ebay.
Kevin

Date: Aug 26, 2003 on 10:19 p.m.

S Zeigler
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posts: 51
since: Nov 07, 2002 9. Re:T-99 accuracy


For what I can add.
I have a 4th series Nagoya that shoots Point of Aim, and I've gotten sub-MOA groups at 100 meters. Needless to say it is a keeper. My favorite load is 43 grains of IMR 4895, using the Hornady 174gr. FMJ. I also have had great results with 45 grains of 4895 using pulled surplus ComBloc 150gr FMJ bullet. The Combloc is from 7.62x54R ammo.

BTW the rear sight, on folding sights, in the down position is calibrated for 100 meters, in the intitial up position 200 meters, then up you go 300, 400, etc.... If memory serves the on Substitute Standard (last ditch) the peep is set at 300 meters. Correct me if I am wrong.

Regards, Shannon

Date: Aug 26, 2003 on 11:44 p.m.

mag 10. Re:T-99 accuracy



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Navybuff (Aug 26, 2003 10:19 p.m.):
Mag, along the same line but a little to the left. Have you noticed any difference in the headspacing from one arsenal to another. Or the same arsenal later in the production line when time meant more rifles? Also, is anyone at the time making 7.7 head space gauges? I've only seen one set of clymer (Spelling) sell on Ebay.
Kevin


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I keep notes on all my T-99's that include : [example] Tight chamber ... Loose bore. That is instantly made clear to me at the rifles first shoot. I have a small , medium, and large "sized" round in my test box. If the gun will only chamber the small round, not the medium = thight chamber. The velocity readings of a known handload will tell how tight the bore is, I have test shot so many T-99's I can tell the bore by it. Most people do not understand what headspace really is and means, it is just a catch word they pick up. Headspace on a military rifle means nothing, especially on Arisakas that were made with "big" chambers to let about any wartime ammo work. All a small cartridge in a big chamber does is blow the shoulder forward to fill the chamber, we also call that fireforming. So any headspace gauge made to cartridge specs will be too small for the chamber. BUT, if you keep blowing out a case to fit the big chamber AND keep resizing it down small to reload, you will get a split case after awhile. So the best thing to do is just neck size the brass for the gun it is to be used in. That is cheap and easy for both japs. 7.7mm , just neck size in a spaced up 7.62x54r die. 6.5mm , just cut a 6.5x55 swede die to 50mm.
As far as big headspace goes, it COULD mean you have a bolt set back problem [ it is rare, but can happen ]. But if you have checked everything and it is ok, you are good to go. I have set the shoulder back by a 1/4 inch on cases to make an extra long neck as to load TWO short bullets in the case. NOW that is a headspace problem!! They ALL fired fine and just moved the shoulder back up to normal, not even a split neck. I was not even killed!! That is an extream example done as a test, but it does show how forgiving brass is. I have test fired over 2000 old military rifles with no problem ever from large headspace. I have had cases split, and case heads separate alot over the years, but most of the time I never even knew it happened untill the case is removed from the rifle. Every "explosion" type of failure I have ever seen turned out to be a blocked bore [ caused by everyting from a bullet stuck in the bore to the wrong ammo and whatever else stupid a fool could come up with ], that left the pressure nowhere else to go.
JUST BE CAREFULL AND USE COMMON SENSE, if it does not feel or seem right, it probably is not.
mag
Date: Aug 27, 2003 on 01:21 a.m.

CW
Premium member
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posts: 604
since: Jul 23, 2001 11. Re:T-99 accuracy


Mag,
While on the topic of headspacing, I have a T38 that I hope to get a new bolt for (didn't have one when I bought it). I don't know of any 6.5 gauges, should I use an unfired round and add masking tape to the diameter of the case to create my own "go/no-go" gauge? Any suggestions?
Thanks in Advance,
-Chris

Date: Aug 27, 2003 on 03:06 a.m.

peterNaCl
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posts: 313
since: Jul 16, 2001 12. Re:T-99 accuracy


last updated at Aug 27, 2003 02:30 p.m. (1 times)
Well, 'headspace' is at back of the case - the space between the bolthead & base. You tape on the base/primer; make sure you select a nice round from your box. With clear Scotch tape [ 0.009"] equals about 3 layers.
The REAL safety-value deal is to wrap the rifle in about 4 layers of heavy canvas/tyvek and use heavy gloves & face protection when you fire the first rd into the berm. THEN examine the rifle and brass for signs of headspace & pressure [protruding primer, bulges, cracks, necksplits or black leakage trails from the case mouth ... etc.]
you can't be TOOO careful there.
gluck, peterNaCl
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Those who don't know history are probably repeating it.'
Date: Aug 27, 2003 on 12:51 p.m.

rcb
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posts: 376
since: Nov 28, 2001 13. Re:T-99 accuracy


Mag, your dissertation about head space should be kept and posted again every time some one wants to talk about head space. I have not fired near as many rifles as you have but have had the same results. I have never know of a seperated head till I opened the bolt and only a part of the case come out. Some years back a guy got me to fire his T 38 carbine. He said there was something wrong with it because the fired cases had almost no neck left. The reason - it had been rechambered to 6.5 x 57. I could tell nothing by firing it, just no neck when the hull came out.
Good article. rcb.
Date: Aug 27, 2003 on 07:34 p.m.

Navybuff
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posts: 701
since: Jan 10, 2002 14. Re:T-99 accuracy


Thanks Mag, I learned alot and will print this thread out once it dies down and no new post. Thanks again.

Kevin

Date: Aug 27, 2003 on 08:32 p.m.

szeigler
15. Re:T-99 accuracy


Kim,
This is an outstanding example of a FAQ answer. We can't expect Mag to type that sort of info evertime one of us asks the question. With your permission I'd like to have Trey and Strangems add that to their forums. Please consider doing the same.

Respectfully, Shannon

Date: Aug 27, 2003 on 09:29 p.m.

kfields
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posts: 343
since: Jul 20, 2002 16. Re:T-99 accuracy


Shannon, I agree with you. Lots of great information. I like the FAQ idea and will bring it up with the host to see what needs to be done to make it happen. Kim
Date: Aug 27, 2003 on 10:22 p.m.

mag 17. Re:T-99 accuracy


Well I am glad you guys liked it. The whole subject is really too complcated to cover with little posts. There are alot of different factors involved [and only some of them may apply to what ever rifle you happen to be shooting at the time] Example: The extractor USEALLY will hold the case head firm to the boltface, that is way the shoulder will move forward. BUT if it does not, the case head will try and move back,= head separation. If you have a rough chamber that will make it more likely to happen, again if the firing pin is long enough to set it off after it has moved forward, then again that all is controled by how rough the chamber is to hold the case, on and on. So you see all the different factors that can add up.
I should have mentioned the first ever, cover it up and duck shot, to check it out. But it is hard to remember to state something that is a given. The first fired case will tell you alot. A good rule is to use a light handload first, then carefully work your way up. Common sense is important. mag
Date: Aug 28, 2003 on 01:25 a.m.






Replies:

Reply author: Carcano
Replied on: 09/08/2003 12:47:37 PM
Message:
Excellent. I think we all must save some of the good and substantial old threads, AND transport them into the new forum, too. So, let's collaborate !



Reply author: kfields
Replied on: 09/10/2003 10:17:09 PM
Message:
Here is a previous thread concerning the T38 and Type " I "...

Type "I" accuracy myth (read 278 times)
Eloldehombre1
Premium memberin Silver Bullet Members posts: 573since: Dec 29, 2002 1. Type "I" accuracy myth


Some years back I took several Japanese rifles, one an "I," to the Alabama Shoot at the Blevins ranchero. The "I" proved to have better accuracy than the 38s. The next week I mentioned this in a telephone conversation with Dick Hobbs who later published the book "The Carcano." Dick mentioned the Type "I" accuracy over the 38s in the book. After the conversation with Dick I cleaned the rifles and noted the bores of the 38s were worn while the "I" was like new. Later I shot the"I" against a late Naboya 38, unfired until the test. The 38 was a hair more accurate than the "I." So it is not the accuracy of the Type "I", it iss the condition of the barrel.
Date: Aug 13, 2003 on 07:22 a.m.

Seattle Militaria 2. Re:Type "I" accuracy myth

Hi; Condition of the bore is very important. The Japanese hated the Type "I"s and used them little. The T38s mostly got a work out for years. I have several near mint T38s that show a fairly poorly machined bore. The smaller it is the harder it is to do well. Tool chatter is a problem I have seen several times in new T38s. I think I like to show other "know it all" guys up with a Type "I" more than a T38 though. Carcano action, Japanese Navy, WW2, All that stuff. Thanks Doug
Date: Aug 13, 2003 on 01:46 p.m.

mag 3. Re:Type "I" accuracy myth


I have test fired about 5000 rounds through about 100 T-38's and 12 Type I's. Most with mint bores. As a whole the Type I's are more accurate. All of the Type I's shot very well, only a couple of T-38's could shoot with them. mag
Date: Aug 13, 2003 on 06:51 p.m.

dgv2
Normal memberin Gunboards.Com Members posts: 87since: Nov 08, 2002 4. Re:Type "I" accuracy myth


The No. 1 position on my "Japanese" Rifle accruacy list (more than 50 rifles tested) is held by a Type I, which averaged 1.478 inches for four 100-yard groups (best group was 1.202 inches) with its best load. More than 40 5-shot groups were tested in finding the best load, which was a light target load of 17.5 grains of SR4759 under a Sierra 107 MK (1961 fps). My eyes aren't too good any more and MAG might have cut a quarter-inch off my average size. Also some of my T-38s and T-99s have pristine bores and shoot very well indeed, just not better than this Type I. Also note that the Italians cut the Type I chamber to minimum dimensions and a case fired in a Japanese T-38 or 44 probably will not chamber again, even if it is full length resized, so segregate your brass. See you at the range!
Date: Aug 14, 2003 on 08:31 p.m.

fatstrat 5. Re:Type "I" accuracy myth


I miss equaly well with both of them. BTW:Greeting from Winchester Va.
Date: Aug 20, 2003 on 03:36 p.m.

Comradeandrei 6. Re:Type "I" accuracy myth


Carcani and Arisakas have always proven to be good shooters for me given decent ammo. Just yesterday, I took out my old Type 38 Koishikawa. The bore is pretty well worn, with the rifling at the muzzle almost gone. I was just shooting at a Coke can at 100m. With the sight in the folded down position (300m?) I was getting hits close to the can with one actually hitting it. I next put up a paper plate (the "paper plate test") and every round hit the plate, giving an 8" group with the 3 closest rounds being within 2 inches of each other. All five round strings. I think it is also worth noting that the gun shot to POA.I didn't think it did bad for such a shot out bore.
Date: Aug 26, 2003 on 03:32 p.m.





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You are correct about the problem of not being able to rechamber a round in a type I after firing it in a 38 even after resizing.I have two type I rifles that look like they were hardly used and well used 38 rifles. The 38 shoot better.
 
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