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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
T38 sniper

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Topic URL: http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=134704
Printed on: 10/03/2007


Topic:



Topic author: fredh
Subject: T38 sniper
Posted on: 11/19/2005 4:25:36 PM
Message:
A few weeks ago there was a posting about an upcoming auction that included a T38 sniper. I bookmarked the address and got around to looking at it this afternoon. I know we don't talk about on-going auctions, but the dam has already broken. That rifle is #218. If I remember correctly, when found, it had a straight handle bolt in it. It was featured in a Banzai article, if I also remember this correctly. Does anyone know if a correct bolt was found for this rifle? The photo of the rifle shows the bent sniper bolt, but the description posted has no special info on matching numbers, etc. Naturally, I would be interested in that rifle, so the question begs to be asked.

Replies:

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 11/19/2005 5:27:46 PM
Message:
Must have been taken out of some T-97.
Did you also notice the "T-99 with experimental bipod" in the same auction ? A total fake with a T-99 LMG bipod attached to the front of an otherwise normal T-99 and a very "un-Japanese" Japanese character set with Nagoya arsenal mark branded on the stock. I would think the auctioneers would be a bit more professional than list such trash up as rare "experimental" specimen. With such irresponsible listings by a reputable auction house, makes all the job of the damn fakers out there worthwhile.

Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 11/19/2005 6:09:13 PM
Message:
Edokko, you know your stuff. I think you've been studying.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/19/2005 8:06:38 PM
Message:
The only 38 sniper I know of in B'ZAI is the one I picked up in the early/mid-90s. Had a straight bolt with 'blood' pitting that matched spots on the receiver. I later advertised it in B'ZAI and it was purchased by C. Stowell (CA). Stowell traded (incomplete trade so I understand) for a 38 scope and advertised the rig along with other goodies in B'ZAI. I understand it was purchased by a collector in IL Fred, I have the purchaser's name if you need it. When it let my ownership it still had the straight bolt.

Interesting story behind the rifle, I somehow heard about it and that it was for sale one fall and left several messages on the owner's answering machine. No contact. The next spring, out of the blue, he called, introduced himself and offered the rifle. He bought it from a cop who had sold him other rifles. The cop got it from a widow who called the police station and asked that someone stop by and remove an old rifle her late husband brought back from the war!

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 11/20/2005 4:50:28 PM
Message:
I am aware of seven legit Test Type 38 Sniper Rifles. These are serial numbers 118, 127, 183, 188, 218, 368 and 388. I am also aware of only four correct Model 5 scopes for these test sniper rifles. They are scopes with manufacturer's serial numbers (on top of the scope) of 1 (in Japan), 558, 678 and 688. I am also aware of two BAD counterfeits so let the buyer beware.

Serial number 218's bolt was originally reported to me as being "mismatched and incorrect" with no further description, so it looks like Fred is correct.

More in the book when it is completed....

Frank



Reply author: JLKwilinski
Replied on: 11/20/2005 7:44:06 PM
Message:
For Edokko,
In Nov. 74, I received some photos of a Nagoya Bipod test rifle from a well known collector. It was #22 and from the photos the markings looked for real. It had a Type 96 bipod mounted on it and the installation looked professional. The rifle was a first series Nagoya in the 83000 range. At the time it was not for sale.
I wondered why the Japanese would want to try that type of bipod? What was the objective? Were they going to use it to train the new troops how to use a machinegun? Was it to test out for a new Sniper rifle? It dissapeared from my knowledge till I saw your answer in this Gunboard.
I have pictures and I would put them on the Gunboard as soon as I find out how to do it.
JLkwilinski

Reply author: JLKwilinski
Replied on: 11/20/2005 8:06:43 PM
Message:
To FCAllan,
Rock Island Auction Co. is going to auction a T38 Sniper which has the number 176 stamped on the scope base. So far that is the only information I obtained from the picture. The auction will be held Dec. 3/4/5. From the picture, You can see an elongated bolt handle. Original? The number is one off of the picture in MROJ.
JLKwilinski

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 11/20/2005 8:48:30 PM
Message:
Dear JLkwilinski,
Thanks for your input and would be very interested in seeing your photos. If what you saw was indeed #22, then it must be the same rifle on the auction site now (BTW is lot #1538), since the branded number on the stock and the etched number on the dust cover has both #22 in Kanji.
I believe this rifle to be of faked nature due to several reasons, first and most apparent is the style of Kanji brand marked on the stock. Kanji characters have a certain balance in the strokes, and these markings are totally out of balance and could not have been Japanese origin. Second, is the use of the huge Nagoya mark on the center of the brand mark, which strikes as very strange (I have never seen an arsenal mark used on experimental rifle status markings), looks too phony. Third, is the rifle itself has no special modification done on it aside of the handguard cut back to accomodate the LMG bipod, which work can be done by any bubba. If the barrel was a special long made variation for experimental purposes, that would have been different. Fourth, is common sense just cannot justify using a highly money and effort incorporated part such as an LMG bipod on a mere rifle, even for experimental purposes. LMG bipods were used for the Japanese bazooka, but a bazooka will well justify the use of a costly bipod, not an every-infantryman's rifle.

Reply author: JLKwilinski
Replied on: 11/21/2005 6:36:38 PM
Message:
Edokko,
Back in 1974 We hadn't anybody to translate for us. Not having the rifle in my hands to eyeball it personaly the pictures showed me (at the time) that the branded stock characters looked good. The dust cover being marked seemed strange to me. At that time we were looking for the new and unusual for publication in Banzai.
JLKwilinski

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 11/21/2005 8:33:51 PM
Message:
Dear Jerry;

Yes, that scope mount & scope are on rifle serial number 218. It is legit with the exception of the bolt as noted. Never seen one for sale before!!! If I hit the lottery I'll bid, but......

Frank

Reply author: JLKwilinski
Replied on: 11/22/2005 01:51:50 AM
Message:
Edokko,
I'm going to try to send the pictures of the T99 Bipod Test #22 rifle to this gunboard. They are pictures of pictures so quality isn't very good.
JLKwilinski

PS: In trying to download the pictures I get an error message and the pictures will not load. I'll try to reduce them to see if that will work.
JLK

Reply author: JLKwilinski
Replied on: 11/22/2005 02:34:36 AM
Message:
Edokko,
Maybe this time it will get on the gunboard.
JLKwilinski
http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9291&stc=1&d=1191715410


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Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/22/2005 08:05:34 AM
Message:
Could it be the same rifle? Some years back someone told me of a gag rifle similar to the one in question. When the owner/maker died his widow asked a friend to sell it. He had it on the table at a Columbus, OH (?) show for $400. One of the west coast fellows that hits a show almost running, scanning every table as he scurried past stopped and looked at the rifle and asked the price. "Four" "Would you take three and a half?" "Ok" The west coast guy counts 35, $100 bills and walks off with the rifle! True story and the rifle had a bipod - same beast?

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 11/22/2005 08:36:05 AM
Message:
Jerry, thank you for the photos, and I believe this is the exact same piece that is on the Rock Island auction catalog.

Doss, that story is an absolute hoot, and sounds so ridiculous it must be true. Makes sense why it is sitting on auction now, at a $2,000 to $3,000 estimate (jeez !!).

Actually the T-99 itself looks very nice and a shame that it's been tinkered with all the markings and shortened handguard and stock. But if it's $400, I may buy it, heck of a gag.


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