[Stalin's Ghost]

Running perfectly with a skilled operator in clean, dry and reasonable conditions on a bright sunny day in Arizona, an SVT is probably a better rifle than a Garand.
Running in the slime and mud and snow of a Stalingrad or Moscow winter ditch at -20 degrees F in Eastern Front winter darkness, where you've been pinned down in frozen sludge for three days without sleep or a chance to even get hot food, a Mosin is a better weapon than an SVT or a Garand.
It's all relative.

Funny how opinions change thread to thread. In this one people, I think correctly, explain how the 91/30 was preferred because the SVT was complicated, unreliable, difficult to maintain and expensive to produce.
In the SVT versus Garand thread, people were trying to say the SVT was a superior weapon to the Garand. Following that logic, they would now have to argue that the 91/30 was a superior Main Battle Rifle to the Garand.

Most of the primary participants in the slaughter we call WWll excelled at some particular piece of armament:
The Germans had the best squad automatic weapon, the MG-42
The Russians the best all around battle tank, the T-34
The Americans the best battle rifle, the Garand, and the best strategic bomber, the B-17 and long range fighter the P-51.

 

[armenjs]

Germans had skilled field armorers with every regiment who could help with keeping the SVTs going. Also, Germans early on had the leisure of a bit more free time to keep things clean, being the attackers rather than the attackees.

I think the average German soldier had more fondness and skill at small mechanical items and precision maintenance than the average Soviet, but that it just based on my perhaps prejudicial view that Germans really like precision mechanical stuff. (Mercedes, BMWs, Lugers and Mausers come quickly to mind, but German clockmakers also were pretty sharp.)

Not only were Mosins a whole lot easier to keep clean and reliable (one jam might mean your life), they were more accurate and easy to fix even in horrible conditions. An experienced Russian trooper with a stripper clip could load a Mosin very quickly, while a mud-filled SVT mag was hopeless. I think that mostly the Russians used stripper clips in SVTs, so they were loaded at the same speed as a Mosin.

It's just that if you left an SVT dirty for a few days in the snow, darkness, cold and muck, it didn't work anymore, while a Mosin shook it off like a muddy old dog and went on shooting straight and reliably. Grab a few parts off a damaged one in a ditch and you practically had a new rifle.

That's why my SVT doesn't get shot much and my Mosins do - the cleaning is a pain, even in perfect conditions.

absolutely Same is true with mp40. Not as bad as svt but don't like mud or dirt.

 

[SA1911a1]

I will toss this out as well: Soviet battle preference had their soldiers forcing close combat with the enemy. When going man-to-man in a close-quarter trench-fight, the German advantage in artillery, machine guns, and superior training dissolved. The SVT-40 is far too delicate to use as a pike or a club in a trench battle, and too difficult to maintain afterwords. The Mosin-Nagant is a fine weapon for head-smashing and bayonet poking.

The Germans and Finns preferred to fight a different kind of battle of finesse and maneuver where they were better served by a semi-auto rifle, fired from a distance, at massed and charging, infantry. The Germans, in particular, tried to avoid a trench fight or night infantry battles, two things the Soviets were damn good at.

It kind of irks me to hear people talking about the Soviets as being some sort of ignorant cavemen. The Soviet soldiers, while somewhat less literate than the Americans, the difference in education levels was not as drastic as you might think. They were as capable of operating a semi-automatic weapon as they were at building and fighting the best tanks of the war. There was a time, early in the war, where the Soviets were throwing any warm body in front of the advancing German Army, but you have to remember, that by the end of the war, the Germans were doing the same thing with old men and 13 year old boys..... When, the enemy is in your backyard, you do what you have to do. In the end, it all worked out for the Soviets, not the German Supermen.

 

[Montana Bearbait]

Good to see you back Montana! Its been to long. Good to see you posting once more. Cheers:thumbsup:

Thanks Spaxs...
Hey do you have any of those copywrited, outstanding woodplie background photos that would apply to this thread?
If so I'd sure like to see them!

 

[Spaxspore]

sadly i do not own a SVT 40

 

[Jungles]

The Germans could also use SVT's on an opportunistic basis, for as long as they worked or otherwise convenient, and them abandon them when no longer useful.

 

[bananas]

I think some of the SVT reliability complaints stem from dirty magazines. Gunk inside the mag causes a lot of failure to feed

 

[srinde]

The Germans liked the SVT40 enough that they were turning up in North Africa along with German language manuals.

I personally do not think that they are in the same class as the Garand.

 

[armenjs]

sadly i do not own a SVT 40

No worries SUN will shine in a few weeks. I got my first one from our friend in GB, and the other one took a lots of convincing!

 

[Stalin's Ghost]

Our US forces have done that with Kalashnikov's fine and reliable products for a long time, as well.

The Germans could also use SVT's on an opportunistic basis, for as long as they worked or otherwise convenient, and them abandon them when no longer useful.

 

[Stalin's Ghost]

+1.

The Russian and Ukrainian literacy rate in 1941 was equal to our own. Now it is a whole lot higher, with app. 98% literacy for both Ukraine and Russia and much, much higher test scores in math, science and physics at the high school level. In addition, the Russian love of literature and poetry far surpasses our own among students, who read most English and American literary classics in translation and are more familiar with our writers than many US students are. Back in Stalin's day, ordinary Russian students read Jack London, Shakespeare and Conan Doyle in translation along with most of the Russian classics like Tolstoy and Dostoevsky.

Try "War and Peace" on a typical US student these days! (No, that doesn't mean the Soviet system was great and Stalin was a wonderful guy, just that Russians got a good education and were not just ignorant fools incapable of reading a rifle manual or following simple instructions as some have tried to claim with their "peasant army" nonsense.)

My daughter just spent a semester as a student at Moscow University, where most American freshman couldn't even begin to do the work even if it was in English. My wife, a product of Soviet education, just got straight "A"s in 16 individual college classes in the US, even though English is her second language.

(Soviet infantry squad tactics by the middle of the war were pretty well standardized and very successful - lay down a heavy field of fire with PPSH-41s and Mosins to keep the enemy's head down, then advance a light field gun or armor to destroy his position. It was similar to our "hedgerow" tactics in France, but had the advantage of hundreds of very quick and light fieldpieces advancing rapidly with the troops, often pulled by hand if there wasn't room for the famous Studebakers that we gave the Soviets. These light artillerymen were the guys with the M38s strapped neatly across their backs that you see wheeling their guns through the streets of Berlin under fire.)

While US propaganda once liked to portray Soviet soldiers as illiterate plowboys, the Soviet Union was a vast expanse of very different republics ranging from wild mountain ranges to factories in big cities to vast agricultural districts. Sounds similar to the US, and was, with some very different ethnic groups in the mix as well, all perfectly capable of learning to use a rifle successfully, as they proved.

I will toss this out as well: Soviet battle preference had their soldiers forcing close combat with the enemy. When going man-to-man in a close-quarter trench-fight, the German advantage in artillery, machine guns, and superior training dissolved. The SVT-40 is far too delicate to use as a pike or a club in a trench battle, and too difficult to maintain afterwords. The Mosin-Nagant is a fine weapon for head-smashing and bayonet poking.

The Germans and Finns preferred to fight a different kind of battle of finesse and maneuver where they were better served by a semi-auto rifle, fired from a distance, at massed and charging, infantry. The Germans, in particular, tried to avoid a trench fight or night infantry battles, two things the Soviets were damn good at.

It kind of irks me to hear people talking about the Soviets as being some sort of ignorant cavemen. The Soviet soldiers, while somewhat less literate than the Americans, the difference in education levels was not as drastic as you might think. They were as capable of operating a semi-automatic weapon as they were at building and fighting the best tanks of the war. There was a time, early in the war, where the Soviets were throwing any warm body in front of the advancing German Army, but you have to remember, that by the end of the war, the Germans were doing the same thing with old men and 13 year old boys..... When, the enemy is in your backyard, you do what you have to do. In the end, it all worked out for the Soviets, not the German Supermen.

 

[Vic]

The SVT was accepted into German service along with the earlier 38 and sniper variants. Yes it was because they had no self loading rifle available at the time of the invasion but they liked it well enough for it to be used by them throughout the war.

Finnish soldiers prized the rifles for its firepower and the depots went as far as making spare parts and mods to improve the reliability.

My call on why the rifle was not liked by the Soviet soldiers- training and familiarity with the rifle that was more then 3 days and off you went.

 

[Vic]

+1.
Russian and Ukrainian literacy in 1941 was equal to our own. Now it is a whole lot higher, with app. 98% literacy for both Ukraine and Russia and much, much higher test scores in math, science and physics at the high school level.
My daughter just spent a semester as a student at Moscow University, where most American freshman couldn't even begin to do the work even if it was in English.

(Soviet infantry squad tactics by the middle of the war were pretty well standardized and very successful - lay down a heavy field of fire with PPSH-41s and Mosins to keep the enemy's head down, then advance a light field gun or armor to destroy his position. It was similar to our "hedgerow" tactics in France, but had the advantage of hundreds of very quick and light fieldpieces advancing rapidly with the troops, often pulled by hand if there wasn't room for the famous Studebakers that we gave the Soviets. These light artillerymen were the guys with the M38s strapped neatly across their backs that you see wheeling their guns through the streets of Berlin under fire.)

While US propaganda once liked to portray Soviet soldiers as illiterate plowboys, the Soviet Union was a vast expanse of very different republics ranging from wild mountain ranges to factories in big cities to vast agricultural districts. Sounds similar to the US, and was, with some very different ethnic groups in the mix as well, all perfectly capable of learning to use a rifle successfully, as they proved.

I have to disagree with the first sentence. Maybe.....in January 1941 but by January 1942 conscripts from all over dropped that to a very low number. The manuals from 1941 were pictograms that required NO reading.

 

[clayshooter2]

The best thing is to read original manual, but I don't know if translations exist.

Well, there is/was this one.
http://www.mosinnagant.net/the mosin-nagant store/Mosin-Nagant-Dot-Net-Store-Page-One-Svt.asp

 

[RayG_Wisconsin]

Running perfectly with a skilled operator in clean, dry and reasonable conditions on a bright sunny day in Arizona, an SVT is probably a better rifle than a Garand..

First, in regard to opinions that the soldiers didn't receive proper training on the SVT. I just have some difficulity believing that the SVT's were just handed out with out some training. How much time would it take to train a soldier on the rifle and I believe the average Russian soldier was more then capable of learning how to field strip and maintain the SVT in a matter of a few hours. And a few more hours learning how to shoot it. I think the real problem was it just had some issues of reliability that the 91/30 didn't have and when your life is on the line, you want a rifle you can depend on.


Just curious, can you give me some examples on how the SVT is a probably a better rifle then the Garand? Ray

 

[kujuak]

Well, there is/was this one.
http://www.mosinnagant.net/the mosin-nagant store/Mosin-Nagant-Dot-Net-Store-Page-One-Svt.asp

Any way to get photocopy of this?

 

[bananas]

First, in regard to opinions that the soldiers didn't receive proper training on the SVT. I just have some difficulity believing that the SVT's were just handed out with out some training. How much time would it take to train a soldier on the rifle and I believe the average Russian soldier was more then capable of learning how to field strip and maintain the SVT in a matter of a few hours. And a few more hours learning how to shoot it. I think the real problem was it just had some issues of reliability that the 91/30 didn't have and when your life is on the line, you want a rifle you can depend on.


Just curious, can you give me some examples on how the SVT is a probably a better rifle then the Garand? Ray

Some Soviet veterans speak of liberating villages and just tossing weapons (even ppsh) to able civillians, forcing them to fight along

 

[clayshooter2]

Any way to get photocopy of this?

You would have to ask Vic. I was just linking his page for those who were not aware of the translated manual.

 

[JTV]

Finnish soldiers prized the rifles for its firepower and the depots went as far as making spare parts and mods to improve the reliability.

Might be good to note, that Finnish military did not start repairing SVT-38 and SVT-40 rifles until 1950's, even if thousands of rifles out of about 20,000 captured broke down during the war. Also - wasn't the main mod to improve reliability adding making a larger gas vent hole? - if so, according Palokangas it happened in 1950's and as far as known may have been likely related to standard issue ammunition (with heavy D166 bullet and brass case) working poorly in these rifles (*). Finnish sources do no seem to mention locally manufactured spare parts for these rifles - can you tell more?

(*) Finnish-language manual (which seems to be almost direct translation from Soviet one) for these rifles is also post-war. It does mention that ammunition with light bullets and should be used, but it remains uncertain if correct ammunition was issued for them.

Jarkko


Jarkko

 

[runner]

Running perfectly with a skilled operator in clean, dry and reasonable conditions on a bright sunny day in Arizona, an SVT is probably a better rifle than a Garand.
Running in the slime and mud and snow of a Stalingrad or Moscow winter ditch at -20 degrees F in Eastern Front winter darkness, where you've been pinned down in frozen sludge for three days without sleep or a chance to even get hot food, a Mosin is a better weapon than an SVT or a Garand.
It's all relative.

I would respectfully disagree with your assessment. The Garand performed very well in Korea, in conditions not unlike those found in winter time Russia. One of the Garands strengths was its ability to reliability function in temperature extremes from the tropics to near arctic conditions, and it did it with no need for an adjustable gas system.