A local shop has a 1917 dated Steyr Hahn. It has about 50% original finish, it matches and has an excellent bore. I noticed that the safety will not engage with the hammer in the cocked position, but will engage uncocked. Is this normal? Also is $400 reasonable for one of these? Thanks for any advice.
Steyr Hahn Questions
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I would pretty much jump through my nether orifii to pick up a Steyr Hahn for $400 in the described condition. Care to fess up what shop... I might even drive down from CT to get it. I'll look up the operation and post later if I can find anything useful.
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Any idea who used it? (Austrian, Bavarian, Romanian, Chilean, etc?)
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My STEYR 1917 safety lever does not engage in the cocked hammer position either. It only engages in the hammer down and slide pulled back positions. Has a double eagle with a W.n on right trigger guard (Vienna?).
What it is supposed to do, I do not know. During combat, to carry hot, I’m guessing the soldier would chamber the first round, gently lower the hammer, and then lever up the safety catch. To shoot, the soldier would have to lower the safety catch, pull back the hammer, and pull the trigger.
Cocked and locked would be good, but this one will not do it. (Perhaps a pre-1917 feature?) If someone knows how to get the safety catch up with hammer back, please pass on the procedure.
The safety catch is also used when reloading, keeping the slide back.
Other than that it is a very reliable shooter.
PS: $400 is a fair price.
What it is supposed to do, I do not know. During combat, to carry hot, I’m guessing the soldier would chamber the first round, gently lower the hammer, and then lever up the safety catch. To shoot, the soldier would have to lower the safety catch, pull back the hammer, and pull the trigger.
Cocked and locked would be good, but this one will not do it. (Perhaps a pre-1917 feature?) If someone knows how to get the safety catch up with hammer back, please pass on the procedure.
The safety catch is also used when reloading, keeping the slide back.
Other than that it is a very reliable shooter.
PS: $400 is a fair price.
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The safety should work in either the cocked or uncocked position. Also, if engaged in the uncocked position, pulling back on the hammer should disengage the safety. 400 is good if it works right.....if it doesn't, pass on it. Like all auto pistols of the era, Steyrs were hand fitted. That way, things that were supposed to work, did. Replacing parts often required them to be hand fitted as well in order for the weapon to continue working reliably. Good luck.
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The safety on mine works the same as a 1911A1 US. Safetys were a problem on worn examples of these pistols. I have read warnings, and have examined two at gunshows that you could **** the hammer, pull and release the trigger, release the safety and the hammer would fall. firing the weapon if the thing was loaded. A very dangerous situation.
Old weapons are great to collect and shoot, but remember some odd designs have some strange quirks that may have been part of the reason that they were discontinued.
jim
Old weapons are great to collect and shoot, but remember some odd designs have some strange quirks that may have been part of the reason that they were discontinued.
jim
I have handled an example of one of these that with the hammer cocked and safety engaged when you pulled the trigger not all times but about half the hammer fell. These pistols are interesting collector pieces from the days of the Hapsburg Empire.
I had one that wouldn't engage the safety unless I pulled back on the hammer when it was cocked. I also only payed $200 for it. I got the impression that someone in the past replaced parts and didn't fit them properly.
Other than the safety it worked fine but I sold it because of the cost of 9 Steyer ammo. I was told 9 Largo is so close to the same as 9 Steyer that it would work but that turned out to be bad and dangerous advice. Steyer Hahns are interesting guns if your more interested in collecting or their history and design than shooting them.
Other than the safety it worked fine but I sold it because of the cost of 9 Steyer ammo. I was told 9 Largo is so close to the same as 9 Steyer that it would work but that turned out to be bad and dangerous advice. Steyer Hahns are interesting guns if your more interested in collecting or their history and design than shooting them.
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NEVER EVER AS IN NEVER EVER shoot anthing but 9mm Steyr in them. They are an OUTSTANDING design for the time and built like tanks. Any safety engagement issues are almost guaranteed to be the result of post manufacture fiddling and not a shortcoming of the design itself. If you can find the ammo at a reasonable price you will fall in love. I don't keep up on all the modern stuff but I hear that the rotating barrel design is coming back into vogue.
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Yo Wilhelm:
The pistol is numbers matching in very good/excellent shape, so it should do what you say it can do.
On closer manipulation…..I find….
You are right…”pulling back on the hammer should disengage the safety.” Yes this works. And I now just discover that if you pull the hammer all the way back, one can lever up the safety if the hammer is gently pulled back a little further to the max.
Cocked and locked.
I guess a little metal massage would make it work smoother, but the important thing is that it works.
Thank you for the tip…and have a Merry Christmas !
The pistol is numbers matching in very good/excellent shape, so it should do what you say it can do.
On closer manipulation…..I find….
You are right…”pulling back on the hammer should disengage the safety.” Yes this works. And I now just discover that if you pull the hammer all the way back, one can lever up the safety if the hammer is gently pulled back a little further to the max.
Cocked and locked.
I guess a little metal massage would make it work smoother, but the important thing is that it works.
Thank you for the tip…and have a Merry Christmas !
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513 Posts
Sailor, My opinion would be that "pulling back the hammer, releases the safety" indicates a problem, not an attribute of the weapon.
Carrying a Steyr-Hahn "cocked and locked" is not a good idea because besides a questionable safety,you do not have a grip safety as the 1911 has.
Be careful with these things, they can go BOOM when you don't want them to. Not only can you or someone nearby get hurt, but the Antis will use your accident to show that all guns are dangerous and we should all have our toys taken away.
That dumbass football player shot himself in the leg with a Glock, supossedly the safest handgun ever made.
jim
Carrying a Steyr-Hahn "cocked and locked" is not a good idea because besides a questionable safety,you do not have a grip safety as the 1911 has.
Be careful with these things, they can go BOOM when you don't want them to. Not only can you or someone nearby get hurt, but the Antis will use your accident to show that all guns are dangerous and we should all have our toys taken away.
That dumbass football player shot himself in the leg with a Glock, supossedly the safest handgun ever made.
jim
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Yo Jim:
Thanks for the concern, however, as Willhelm points out: “The safety should work in either the cocked or uncocked position. Also, if engaged in the uncocked position, pulling back on the hammer should disengage the safety. “
Now, for example, the Colt 1911 does not allow this, that is thumb safety on (up) with hammer down (uncocked), at least mine doesn’t.
The Steyr is a different design, and a good idea in this regard as it allows for greater safety on with hammer down, and quick release when necessary.
As for a daily carry the Steyr does have some appeal, i.e. you never have to worry about a damaged or lost mag since the mag is internal and you load up the same way you do a rifle…an idea that never caught on, no doubt because of slower reloads (even if using a loaded stripper clip).
In the final analysis, it is best to trust one’s daily carry to a new weapon, C&R pieces are collectibles to be enjoyed for historical reasons, but when it comes to a real life crisis, a new pistol is the best choice…..make mine a new H&K.
Thanks for the concern, however, as Willhelm points out: “The safety should work in either the cocked or uncocked position. Also, if engaged in the uncocked position, pulling back on the hammer should disengage the safety. “
Now, for example, the Colt 1911 does not allow this, that is thumb safety on (up) with hammer down (uncocked), at least mine doesn’t.
The Steyr is a different design, and a good idea in this regard as it allows for greater safety on with hammer down, and quick release when necessary.
As for a daily carry the Steyr does have some appeal, i.e. you never have to worry about a damaged or lost mag since the mag is internal and you load up the same way you do a rifle…an idea that never caught on, no doubt because of slower reloads (even if using a loaded stripper clip).
In the final analysis, it is best to trust one’s daily carry to a new weapon, C&R pieces are collectibles to be enjoyed for historical reasons, but when it comes to a real life crisis, a new pistol is the best choice…..make mine a new H&K.
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I agree. I have a P5 and a P88 for carry depending on the season. These old clunkers (Steyrs and such) are no longer practical for that purpose. But I can assure you that the pulling back on the hammer to disengage the safety is part of the design. Whatever the case, the Steyr is one of my favorite pistols.....it's just plain neat looking. Some time back, I bought a Steyr GB in phosphate based on how much I love the Model 12. It is nowhere near as cool though.....I'd take the ol' model 12 over it any day! Thanks for the kind words Sailor....same to you buddy!
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I forgot to mention another interesting safety feature. If you watch closely as you engage the safety lever on a lowered hammer, you will notice that the hammer is moved rearward slightly and blocked so that it cannot strike the firing pin. Thus, you can safely carry a round in the chamber with the hammer lowered. Then, as you draw your weapon, you pull the hammer to the rear, disengaging the safety in the prosess and the the pistol is ready to fire. Outstanding forthought considering how early the design is!
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Meaning that if the gun is accidentally dropped with a hot chamber (but safety on and hammer down) it should not blow your balls off.
Truly outstanding…… this design that goes back to, what, 1914 or thereabouts.
All these years I thought the gun was a feature or two behind, now I find it is a feature or two ahead of its times.
Truly outstanding…… this design that goes back to, what, 1914 or thereabouts.
All these years I thought the gun was a feature or two behind, now I find it is a feature or two ahead of its times.
It is very tempting to get carried away extolling the virtues of a pistol as mechanically innovative and elegantly-made as the Steyr-Hahn M1911. I myself am very fond of the Steyr-Hahn. I regard it as an intriguing design and a fun shooter, but I don't harbor any illusions about it. My own gun is a Chilean-contract gun made in 1912 that was in nearly new condition (handpicked from nearly 200) and had all of its original parts until the recoil spring cap fractured while shooting.
I concur 100% with Sailor's and BWilhelm's assessments that in today's world, one should rely on a new, modern weapon for carry and consign the Steyr to strictly pleasure shooting. The Steyrs are outdated warhorses, the newest of which is fast approaching 90 years of age; most of them (including ALL of the 9mm Para examples) no longer have all of their original parts. Many are well-worn and exhibit a variety of functioning problems. As a class Steyr-Hahns are breakage-prone and get out of working order very easily. Their design incorporates many parts--including the safety lever, extractor, sear, recoil spring cap and takedown wedge,) that are formed from integral leaf springs that may be either brittle or weak with age and may no longer reliably serve their function. When originally built at Steyr, these pistols were VERY finely assembled with selective fitting by experienced craftsmen who understood the interrelation of the parts and could compensate for variations in tolerance that the machinery of that era could not maintain. Later in their service lives, replacement parts were seldom fitted as precisely. Today, GOOD spare parts are practically unavailable. Some cannibalized parts often turn out to be slightly different variations in design that are not interchangeable; often crude spares were manufactured by the user countries in arsenal workshops -- and they look it.
While the major components of the pistol are strong, the overall design was never calibrated to function properly with the hotter ammunition available today. I shoot mine exclusively with 1937-dated DWM 9mm Steyr (NON-corrosive, incidentally, and still sure-fire); it is loaded with a 116-grain FMJ that I have chronographed at an average of 1025 fps, a mild load that is pleasant to shoot and not hard on the gun. Notwithstanding the figures found in standard references, 9mm Steyr is not in the same league ballistically with 9mm Largo, though the case dimensions are essentially identical. Overall cartridge length of Largo, moreover, is a tad greater--enough that Largo is too long to fit in the Steyr-Hahn's magazine.
Finally, the safety arrangements are minimal--if not primitive-- by today's standards.
The gun really has only two safety features: 1) a manual safety lever, and 2) an inertial-type firing pin.
The Steyr-Hahn safety is intended to be applied only when the hammer is cocked or to lock the slide open for single-loading cartridges without a stripper clip. It accomplishes nothing safety-wise to apply it when the hammer is uncocked --except to lock the slide-- because the firing pin is of the inertial type, just like the U.S. M1911. Any rearward movement of the uncocked hammer is coincidental; depending on the fit of the extractor (which also serves as the stop for the firing pin) the hammer may (or may not) be retracted out of contact with the rear end of the firing pin. The clearance-- if there is any-- is too little to rely on. Second only to the safety lever, the extractor is the part with the highest mortality rate and replacements are often loosely fitted and allow excess movement of the firing pin. Drawing the hammer back merely provides some unwanted running room for the hammer to go forward again if enough impact is delivered to its spur to break something.
When the chamber is loaded, leaving the hammer full down with the safety off is about as safe as it's going to get. When the hammer is resting full down against the slide, it is pushing the firing pin forward as far as it can, while the front tip of the firing pin by design is still below the breach face. Bear in mind, however, that the firing pin might also also be an ersatz replacement or improperly fitted, and some protrusion may in fact be present.
The manual safety lever, when correctly fitted, should go on when the hammer is cocked, without the need to further manipulate the hammer. If it doesn't, it's incorrectly fitted. If it won't stay securely on, its engagement surface has been altered or damaged, or the split-pin leaf has taken a set.
When the hammer is cocked, engaging the safety lever should cam the hammer back slightly to lift the hammer off the sear. If it doesn't, the safety is worn or altered to the point that it is unserviceable. In such case, if the trigger is pulled and released, and then the safety lever is pulled down, the hammer may not reengage the sear (which is not a separate part, but merely a notch ground in a long leaf spring which may or may not still have enough tension to work properly), and the hammer will fall. If this happens no secondary notch is provided to catch it, and an accidental firing could result. In this regard, it is a good idea, when manually loading the first round into the chamber from the magazine, to hold the gun rigidly with a straight stiff arm well out in front of you and pointed downrange --just in case. ANY semi-auto that slam-fires once is liable to continue doing so until the magazine is empty. If that happens, you want to be able to control it.
If the safety is applied with the hammer uncocked, and is found to "automatically" release when the hammer is pulled back, that is a result of a worn or misfitted hammer or safety. It is most assuredly NOT an intentional feature.
Shooting these old-timers for recreational or educational purposes on a range can be a lot of fun, but one needs to recognize their shortcomings and take sensible precautions to keep from hurting one's self or some innocent bystander.
M
I concur 100% with Sailor's and BWilhelm's assessments that in today's world, one should rely on a new, modern weapon for carry and consign the Steyr to strictly pleasure shooting. The Steyrs are outdated warhorses, the newest of which is fast approaching 90 years of age; most of them (including ALL of the 9mm Para examples) no longer have all of their original parts. Many are well-worn and exhibit a variety of functioning problems. As a class Steyr-Hahns are breakage-prone and get out of working order very easily. Their design incorporates many parts--including the safety lever, extractor, sear, recoil spring cap and takedown wedge,) that are formed from integral leaf springs that may be either brittle or weak with age and may no longer reliably serve their function. When originally built at Steyr, these pistols were VERY finely assembled with selective fitting by experienced craftsmen who understood the interrelation of the parts and could compensate for variations in tolerance that the machinery of that era could not maintain. Later in their service lives, replacement parts were seldom fitted as precisely. Today, GOOD spare parts are practically unavailable. Some cannibalized parts often turn out to be slightly different variations in design that are not interchangeable; often crude spares were manufactured by the user countries in arsenal workshops -- and they look it.
While the major components of the pistol are strong, the overall design was never calibrated to function properly with the hotter ammunition available today. I shoot mine exclusively with 1937-dated DWM 9mm Steyr (NON-corrosive, incidentally, and still sure-fire); it is loaded with a 116-grain FMJ that I have chronographed at an average of 1025 fps, a mild load that is pleasant to shoot and not hard on the gun. Notwithstanding the figures found in standard references, 9mm Steyr is not in the same league ballistically with 9mm Largo, though the case dimensions are essentially identical. Overall cartridge length of Largo, moreover, is a tad greater--enough that Largo is too long to fit in the Steyr-Hahn's magazine.
Finally, the safety arrangements are minimal--if not primitive-- by today's standards.
The gun really has only two safety features: 1) a manual safety lever, and 2) an inertial-type firing pin.
The Steyr-Hahn safety is intended to be applied only when the hammer is cocked or to lock the slide open for single-loading cartridges without a stripper clip. It accomplishes nothing safety-wise to apply it when the hammer is uncocked --except to lock the slide-- because the firing pin is of the inertial type, just like the U.S. M1911. Any rearward movement of the uncocked hammer is coincidental; depending on the fit of the extractor (which also serves as the stop for the firing pin) the hammer may (or may not) be retracted out of contact with the rear end of the firing pin. The clearance-- if there is any-- is too little to rely on. Second only to the safety lever, the extractor is the part with the highest mortality rate and replacements are often loosely fitted and allow excess movement of the firing pin. Drawing the hammer back merely provides some unwanted running room for the hammer to go forward again if enough impact is delivered to its spur to break something.
When the chamber is loaded, leaving the hammer full down with the safety off is about as safe as it's going to get. When the hammer is resting full down against the slide, it is pushing the firing pin forward as far as it can, while the front tip of the firing pin by design is still below the breach face. Bear in mind, however, that the firing pin might also also be an ersatz replacement or improperly fitted, and some protrusion may in fact be present.
The manual safety lever, when correctly fitted, should go on when the hammer is cocked, without the need to further manipulate the hammer. If it doesn't, it's incorrectly fitted. If it won't stay securely on, its engagement surface has been altered or damaged, or the split-pin leaf has taken a set.
When the hammer is cocked, engaging the safety lever should cam the hammer back slightly to lift the hammer off the sear. If it doesn't, the safety is worn or altered to the point that it is unserviceable. In such case, if the trigger is pulled and released, and then the safety lever is pulled down, the hammer may not reengage the sear (which is not a separate part, but merely a notch ground in a long leaf spring which may or may not still have enough tension to work properly), and the hammer will fall. If this happens no secondary notch is provided to catch it, and an accidental firing could result. In this regard, it is a good idea, when manually loading the first round into the chamber from the magazine, to hold the gun rigidly with a straight stiff arm well out in front of you and pointed downrange --just in case. ANY semi-auto that slam-fires once is liable to continue doing so until the magazine is empty. If that happens, you want to be able to control it.
If the safety is applied with the hammer uncocked, and is found to "automatically" release when the hammer is pulled back, that is a result of a worn or misfitted hammer or safety. It is most assuredly NOT an intentional feature.
Shooting these old-timers for recreational or educational purposes on a range can be a lot of fun, but one needs to recognize their shortcomings and take sensible precautions to keep from hurting one's self or some innocent bystander.
M
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Thanks MGMike, you said it better than I did.
jim
jim
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