Speed loading a Brown Bess

4451 Views 25 Replies 12 Participants Last post by adrian, Mar 25, 2010

bbrown

Discussion Starter · Mar 21, 2010

In one of the later episodes in the Sharpe series, Sgt. Harper is training some recruits in loading techniques while under fire. The process he drills them in involves forgetting the ramrod, just (speaking from my poor memory):

- tear open the cartridge package with your teeth
- keep the ball in your mouth
- pour the powder down the barrel
- spit the ball down the barrel
- tap the butt on the ground
- raise musket to level
- prime the pan
- aim
- fire

and repeat. This procedure seems to shave several seconds off the reloading time, allowing for more shots per minute.

Is this procedure documented anywhere in the historical record?

Has anyone here tried this?

Thanks,

Bryan

PS - at the Maryland Arms Collector Association annual show in Baltimore yesterday I got a copy of Goldstein and Mowbray's softbound book The Brown Bess. Even got both authors to sign it. Lots of pictures illustrating the different Patterns.

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

Alden

· #2 · Mar 21, 2010

Yes it is authentic, was "common" tho dangerous, and could be done with smoothbores and eventually Minie-ball loaded rifles if reasonably clean. However, when I say common it was only done as a last ditch effort. It destroyed the gun, as you might imagine, and if you did that under normal circumstances you'd pay dearly. The real trick that was added to flints was to enlarge the touchole -- the "tapping" was not just to have the momentum of the ball ram the gun for you but to dribble powder into the pan.
Alden

James N.

· #3 · Mar 21, 2010

This was supposedly used in the Civil War, too; but greatly frowned upon due to the likelihood of splitting the stock and/or fracturing the wrist due to repeated banging on the ground.

PrimitiveHunter

· #4 · Mar 21, 2010

I know very little about BP but have visited several Civil War battlefields, listened to several lectures, and read quite a bit about it. One of the common "mistakes" made during furious, close-quarters combat was to ram the ball down, raise the rifle, and fire. There goes your ramrod. As the stories go, the battles that took place in heavy woods where the average range between opponents was sometimes less than 50 feet, left the scene littered with ramrods. So just top-of-the-head guessing, speed loading in this manner may have gotten it's origins from necessity rather than choice. JMO.

Alden

· #5 · Mar 21, 2010

Um, no, I don't think so. There'd be plenty of spare ramrods on a CW battlefield. It had to do with speed of loading under pressure. To make it even more obvious, try a fighting retreat and see how quickly u leave the ramrod in the thimbles...
Alden

TFoley

· #6 · Mar 21, 2010

There is a thread on Youtube of a re-enactor firing his BB three times in 46 seconds.

Just because the real soldiers who fired the BB are all dead and gone doesn't mean they couldn't be pretty quick when they were alive. ;=)

tac

PrimitiveHunter

· #7 · Mar 21, 2010

Alden said:
Um, no, I don't think so. There'd be plenty of spare ramrods on a CW battlefield. It had to do with speed of loading under pressure. To make it even more obvious, try a fighting retreat and see how quickly u leave the ramrod in the thimbles...
Alden

You could well be correct. I was referring to the information I got from a historian at the Chickamauga battle field. That was his information based on some battlefield letters he had and reports from the local sawmills.

Alden

· #8 · Mar 21, 2010

To be sure, there were a lot of mistakes in loading in the CW, and others, which would likely have been compunded by close quarter combat. This included sending ramrods downrange as well as loading many times without the gun actually going off (I think there's one gun at Gettysburg with 10 bullets in it). However, I'm confident this has nothing to do with the OP. In recent times, as a safety, Rev. War re-enactors at "national" events do not use their ramrods. Yes, there was an early episode (the first of all?) of Sharpe's' where the Sgt. (Harper?) shot someone with a ramrod.
CW re-enactors, after spearing each other time and again, are coming around to not use their's either...
Alden

James N.

· #9 · Mar 22, 2010

This "shooting ( somebody ) with a ramrod" bit in the movies is just so much Hollywood hokum derived from some 40's or 50's western where Our Hero at the Last Possible Minute... does in fact spear the charging Indian. Ever since then, it's been inflicted by some jerk director, asst. director, PA, or stunt director who think they're being SO clever. When I worked on Glory, the director wanted the Raw Recruit to shoot the Bad ol' Rebel through the throat with one; until we patiently explained that because of the way/order recruits were instructed, you DON'T prime with a percussion cap until AFTER you've completed ALL loading steps! In the finished scene, the Rebel still gets in in the throat, but it's with a properly - if hastily - loaded round!

During "the War" recruits were seemingly endlessly drilled several hours daily to ensure just such a stupid thing didn't happen. In the earliest battles like Bull Run and Shiloh they happened anyway; but as the war went on it became less common. As for your experience listening to Park Personnel, I still remember the kid at Lookout Mountain standing in front of the 20 pounder Parrotts describing loading artillery with nails, chain, bits of iron, etc., etc. ad nauseum. Afterwards, when I stayed around to talk to him, he said he knew I MUST be a reenactor, since I was listening so closely, and admitted he was embellishing his tale so as to be more dramatic and interesting. So much for the Official Authorities...

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Old'N'Ugly

· #10 · Mar 22, 2010

The brits called it the "Mad Minute" and it could determine the result of a battle. 5 rounds in a minute rather than the normal 3 meant you would be putting 66% more lead downrange than a soldier loadingconventionally but the vent needs to be self-priming for it to work and by todays safety standards exceedingly unsafe. It is also necesarry to use a clean musket and a ball with at least 1/32" of windage to keep it from getting caught on fouling. A .72 ball in a Bess and a .66 ball in a Charleville is a good example of ball sizes required for this technique to work. Also forget accuracy being much less than 15" at 50 yards. The old fellows were looking for a section of beaten ground that if strayed into would almost certainly result in massive casualtiesn the opposing side.

TP

· #11 · Mar 23, 2010

The standard ball for the British .75 (nominal) caliber Land Pattern musket was .68 - .69. The standard ball for the French and US .69 caliber muskets was .64. Windage was taken up by the cartridge paper. When loading became difficult (and it did fairly quickly), the ball was removed from the paper and the now separate paper was rammed down on top of the ball to keep the ball fixed down on the powder.

The "Mad Minute" was an innovation of the period of the .303 SMLE.

PrimitiveHunter

· #12 · Mar 23, 2010

James N. said:
This "shooting ( somebody ) with a ramrod" bit in the movies is just so much Hollywood hokum derived from some 40's or 50's western where Our Hero at the Last Possible Minute... does in fact spear the charging Indian. Ever since then, it's been inflicted by some jerk director, asst. director, PA, or stunt director who think they're being SO clever. When I worked on Glory, the director wanted the Raw Recruit to shoot the Bad ol' Rebel through the throat with one; until we patiently explained that because of the way/order recruits were instructed, you DON'T prime with a percussion cap until AFTER you've completed ALL loading steps! In the finished scene, the Rebel still gets in in the throat, but it's with a properly - if hastily - loaded round!

During "the War" recruits were seemingly endlessly drilled several hours daily to ensure just such a stupid thing didn't happen. In the earliest battles like Bull Run and Shiloh they happened anyway; but as the war went on it became less common. As for your experience listening to Park Personnel, I still remember the kid at Lookout Mountain standing in front of the 20 pounder Parrotts describing loading artillery with nails, chain, bits of iron, etc., etc. ad nauseum. Afterwards, when I stayed around to talk to him, he said he knew I MUST be a reenactor, since I was listening so closely, and admitted he was embellishing his tale so as to be more dramatic and interesting. So much for the Official Authorities...

I can't intelligently discuss this because my knowledge doesn't even come close to that of the rest of you. However, I want to clarify one point. Not debate anymore; just clarify a point. The person that told me about the ramrods being fired was not a park employee. He was a historian/collector who was giving a presentation that day. He specialized in one particular Tennessee regiment and had tables of letters and battlefield artifacts that he had amassed in his lifetime. He read letters from Soldiers to their family in which they described the ramrod shooters and how they would go out and look for them after a battle. One letter specifically detailed how a Soldier found more ramrods by looking up in the tree limbs for those that were caught up there. Obviously, I wasn't there so I was just relying on eye-witness reports of the guys that were. Not many Hollywood producers around then but who knows?...

James N.

· #13 · Mar 24, 2010

It's not to say "it never happened" - certainly it DID, and IS described in period accounts; but usually by green, untrained, or rattled troops. One possible problem is that relic hunters have excavated numbers of them on battlefields and campsites, often twisted and burned. But it's also possible that at least SOME of these aren't from combat; but rather being used as campfire tools! Civil War soldiers were a clever lot, utilizing equipment, etc. in all sorts of ways unintended by the army. For example, canteen halves made good skillets; bayonets were used as candle holders, tent pegs, coffee "grinders", and cooking implements; and ramrods were often pressed into use as spits to roast meat.

FABIAN23

· #14 · Mar 24, 2010

As mentionned, a clean musket it vital since one would very quickly come to the situation where the ball will not drop all the way down to the powder even with a sharp tap, with the resulting enormous air gap causing Johnny Squaddie a ready nasty surprise when he pulls the trigger.

As TP says, the "mad minute" only emerged with the SMLE.

bbrown

Discussion Starter · #15 · Mar 24, 2010

Alden said:
Yes, there was an early episode (the first of all?) of Sharpe's' where the Sgt. (Harper?) shot someone with a ramrod.

As I recall, Sharpe reamed out Harper properly for doing just that, and Harper was appropriately disgruntled at having done it.

Bryan

FABIAN23

· #16 · Mar 24, 2010

Sharpe's gold I think. Amazing how the rod flew straight to spear the horseman rather than cartwheel wildly away.

CADFather

· #17 · Mar 24, 2010

As a former WBTS re-enactor doing primarily artillery with a little infantry thrown in on occasion. Most if not all of the "battles" that I participated in, when armed with a rifle drawing of the ramrod would get you escorted from the event by the Provost. Having said that, I have seen another battery from Florida launch their ram rod from their 12 pound Napoleon as a demonstration during a live fire. No thanks.

Clyde

· #18 · Mar 24, 2010

CADFather said:
As a former WBTS re-enactor doing primarily artillery with a little infantry thrown in on occasion. Most if not all of the "battles" that I participated in, when armed with a rifle drawing of the ramrod would get you escorted from the event by the Provost. Having said that, I have seen another battery from Florida launch their ram rod from their 12 pound Napoleon as a demonstration during a live fire. No thanks.

That would be an interesting sight. I gather from your wording that it was done on purpose?

Friend who shoots a Springfield (real thing, not repro) got curious about just how well shooting a ramrod would work, loaded up with a (repro) ramrod on top of the Minie and charge , capped it and let fly. That one didn't fly very straight and not too far down range started tumbling before it hit the ground. His conclusion? If an enemy suddenly appeared more or less right close while you were loading, you might go ahead and let him have it ramrod and all if time was really critical. Otherwise, not a very great thing to do. Oh - the ramrod was damaged, bent noticeably, by its use as a projectile.

Viclav

· #19 · Mar 24, 2010

This youtube video may be of interest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvc86ggLUY4

It was brought up in a thread over at britishmilitaria forums, and is subsequently commented upon by Adrian, one of the participants in the experiment:

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/9089?page=-1

Victor

"Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate, Watson."

Clyde

· #20 · Mar 24, 2010

Very interesting.

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

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