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Just kidding Guys, It can be found by you as well at the NRA Museum in Fairfax VA

I live here in Faifax and go to the Museum whenever they add a new exhibit..My first born decided to skip the last useless day of school and since he already received his award for not missing a single class all year I played hookey with him and we spent the morning hanging out..This time it was firearms from the Movies..Got to see Rooster Cogburn's(The Duke's) Winchester as well as the Lone Rangers Pearl handled revolvers!

Thought you guys might like to see some pics..way more there to see than the 120 or so pics show heres a link to my photobucket album

Dont mind the boy, he loves to go but as a 15 year old hes not allowed to smile or show hes enjoying himself in pics..not cool ya know ; )

http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o94/painterjohnphoto/NRA 2010/
 

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Copper Bullet member
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Certainly not to question this piece, but whether it's firearms, other historical paraphenalia, or fine art, the presence of an item in a museum's collection-- even a very famous or highly regarded museum-- is in NO way a guarantee of that item's authenticity.
 

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PJ, most museums are brimming with turds. Most museums are simply visual entertainment for those who don't know any better. Worse are the museums that have been systematically pillaged by "curators" and people that work there who steal the good stuff, usually from storage, replacing good stuff with fakery. Sadly, many vets, their families, and even collectors, have donated their original valuable stuff to museums only to have it stolen by people that work there or sold off by the museum to buy, say a 1/2 scale plastic dinosaur.

As for the subject rifle, from the pics I'd say it's a turd. Borsigwald pantograph engraved their mounts to match the rifles, they didn't normally stamp them. The number font is different. The stock is replaced as it isn't cutout for the Zf.41 mount. Perhaps the museum had an original Zf.41 at one time. If that one was at auction I wouldn't bid on it beyond the price of the component parts.

EDIT: Pic added of original ar numbered mount matched to rifle
 

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That happened here at Truman State University. An entire gun collection given to the school, why I will never know since it is as liberal as can be, disappeared before any of it was cataloged. Someone I know also got hold of some D-day maps, yes D-Day 6 June 1944, made for the invasion day along with the names of the platoon or squad leaders in each boat going ashore and there order and times etc. It was really cool. He told me the guy that "loaned" them to him said they had never been cataloged and was wondering if this guy could tell what they were. That guy retired shortly after and I am not sure if the other guy returned the stuff.
 

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Woodsrunner, keep it in the family and make sure it doesn't go to a dopey relative who would donate it to a museum. Short of that, sell it to a collector who will appreciate it, take care of it, and pay you fairly for it. Because, most "museums" will get it stolen, sell it for a new water drinking fountain, plastic dinosaur bones, or to raise salaries for their staff. The only reason I would consider donating anything to any museum would be if I knew them, it was on loan, I could get it back. Short of that, maybe the only other reason would be tax deduction, but probably only for a non-transferrable NFA item or something.
 

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If assessing prospects for donating to a museum, first assess the status of the museum - is it legit? Beware of un-incorporated and especially "private" museums, and when checking on incorporated ones find out how old they are. If the tale is an individual who is "going to set up a museum" run the other way very fast. What is the museum's collection policy? Does what you propose to donate fit within that policy? How does it handle similar items already in its care? (Bear in mind that collection policies are subject to revision.) Examine gift forms. Usually all right, title and interest passes to the museum (this means once you give it neither you nor your relatives can get it back again later.) Do not expect that your item, if donated, will be displayed for more than a short time, if at all. If making a loan to a museum, review loan forms and make sure that they indicate the duration of the loan and that your item is insured by the borrowing institution "portal to portal;" when the term of the loan expires, insist on return unless an extension of the loan is negotiated and properly documented. Never grant more than one extension.
If the museum suggests a "permanent loan" take great care. While this was done in the past it is no longer considered good practice for all kinds of reasons.
You should discuss any potential gift with appropriate museum staff. If the museum is reputable, it should tell you up front if your gift is appropriate; if it really knows its business, it will refer you to another institution where the "fit" might be better.
Do not expect recommendations for auctioneers or dealers from a museum; some will refer you to an appraiser.
Donations for tax purposes have their place and will require an appraisal for the IRS. The museum should be able to provide documentation from the IRS establishing its validity for such gifts.
If you execute a gift it is up to you - not the museum - to secure an appraisal for tax purposes
If dealing with an appraiser in this context take care that the appraisal is honest; under certain circumstances there are severe tax consequences if an item is over-appraised. Avoid any appraiser who charges a percentage of the total appraised value as a fee for services.
 

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My grandmother donated some valuable family heirlooms (and a lot of junk) to various museums and the museums claimed to have "lost" them completely. A local museum has a basement full of donated guns that will never be displayed, and people keep giving them more all the time.
 

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My grandmother donated some valuable family heirlooms (and a lot of junk) to various museums and the museums claimed to have "lost" them completely. A local museum has a basement full of donated guns that will never be displayed, and people keep giving them more all the time.
RR that also sounds like a lot of different churches. Always have the baskets to pass around yet have to cut back on different services throughout the week. Sometimes, like recently, somebody figures it out and the priest ends up with $75,000 stuffed away in a secret spot. Greed over morals.
 

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No museum displays everything it owns. One indicator of just how "real" a museum is is to find out if it is accredited by the American Association of Museums.

Woodsrunner 38: Before rejecting the idea of donation to a museum you might want to check out the American Association of Museums Directory for AAM accredited museums in your state with collections where your piece might fit. Do an un-announced walk-through to see how they handle such items and go from there...

In any case, no matter what anybody does, you can't guarantee anything about what happens to your particular treasures after your death unless you are in a position to substantially endow them. Artifacts incur costs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
This thread is quite an eye oppener!..I am a skeptic at heart of course and there was a bit of truth in my question of real or Turd..I honestly thought it would be unlikely a Turd but at the same time figured Even the NRA would be well served to run things by this forum.This was the only one I tried to capture closeups of the markings..Had hoped that if you guys gave it the thumbs up I could use them for future reference...My Family has a sword loaned to a Museum in my Mothers town outside Boston..I will be paying them a visit next month when I visit..I must say I already feel some discomfort about it having read these replies, it came from my Great Aunt whos husband Survived being wounded 3 times in WWI before retuning home to his lovely wife..I have a French Helmet and his wool coat he brought home with him along with three empty cartridges whos meaning was lost long ago..I know they were saved on purpose and thats all...Its been many years since a family member has inquired I'm sure.
 

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This thread is quite an eye oppener!..I am a skeptic at heart of course and there was a bit of truth in my question of real or Turd..I honestly thought it would be unlikely a Turd but at the same time figured Even the NRA would be well served to run things by this forum.This was the only one I tried to capture closeups of the markings..Had hoped that if you guys gave it the thumbs up I could use them for future reference...My Family has a sword loaned to a Museum in my Mothers town outside Boston..I will be paying them a visit next month when I visit..I must say I already feel some discomfort about it having read these replies, it came from my Great Aunt whos husband Survived being wounded 3 times in WWI before retuning home to his lovely wife..I have a French Helmet and his wool coat he brought home with him along with three empty cartridges whos meaning was lost long ago..I know they were saved on purpose and thats all...Its been many years since a family member has inquired I'm sure.
Three empty cartridges are usually given to the family members after a 21-gun salute at a military funeral along with the flag. I am not sure if there is a way to distinguish a blank from a loaded shell after they are fired, but it is possible this is their source. When I did this detail in the Air Force, we would polish some of our brass after the funeral to replenish the supply we used for this purpose.
 

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I used to work in the art world many years ago, and it's the same thing there... EVERY museum has forgeries, and they would rather not know which pieces they are. There was also considerable backdoor dealing, with one curator buying a piece from the museum (with board approval no less) at a "market value" that was honestly about 1/4 of what it could have fetched on the open market-- they simply had their own appraiser come in and underappraise it. All above board, through proper channels, with excellent documentation... and, of course, sleazy and crooked.

Also, I remember reading on another board about a guy who went through the Imperial War Museum-- yes, THE IMPERIAL WAR MUSEUM-- and among their Cold War pieces was some cheap fake Stasi sleeveboard, a comically bad piece of flea market junk. The guy wrote them a letter-- not to show them up but out out of genuine concern that they were embarassing themselves and wanting to help-- never got a reply, and of course the piece of garbage was, at last check, still on display making the IWM curatorial staff look like idiots. Which they might well be.

Museums are just like every other authority... government, schools, churches, you name it-- they create a front of knowledge and wisdom, but are still run by people, which means things are getting done by a combination of concerned, talented professionals and lazy, stupid, or criminal jackasses. Just the way of the world.
 

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We also have to remember that very few museums are run by people that are genuinely interested in the material on display. Curators are often incapable of making distinctions between real and fake items - they were hired on the basis of a degree in "museum management", not knowledge of a particular subject. This isn't altogether bad. Many institutions are large and well endowed, others depend heavily on visitor fees. In either case professional management expertise may be more important than expertise in a particular area of artifacts. But, that only means that you, as the donor, have a lot of work to do if you are determined to donate something to a museum. I am involved right now in a case where an item was donated 10 years ago. The deed of gift absolutely required that it be displayed... it never has been and remains on the floor of a warehouse. The executor of the estate is considering legal action to recover it or at least to force the museum to fulfill its part of the bargain.
Overall, I agree with Hambone on this... having no family to pass anything on to, I would much prefer it went to other collectors. The fact that a private party is willing to spend his own money for the privilege of having an artifact in his possession is a pretty good indication that it will be reasonably cared for, certainly as well cared for as it would be in a warehouse full of similar items handled by volunteers and interns with no concept of what it is.
For anyone contemplating a donation, Wapruf2 has covered the subject throughly... also, forget about "permanent donation", this is effectively a scam. There is no such thing and it is exactly the same as a gift.

Also, there are items that do belong in museums. I visited one this week, that may be the oldest gun in the United States that we can be reasonably certain was actually used here. It is on display and in its current location it is accessible to many more people than it would be in a private collection. Much the same can be said for any item that will require extensive, professional conservation that is beyond the means of most people. I'm thinking here of the standard of the 2nd Continental Dragoons that was sold a few years ago by the descendent of Genl. Tarelton who had captured it. He stated simply that he could no longer afford to insure it or protect it adequately.
 

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Also, there are items that do belong in museums. I visited one this week, that may be the oldest gun in the United States that we can be reasonably certain was actually used here. It is on display and in its current location it is accessible to many more people than it would be in a private collection. Much the same can be said for any item that will require extensive, professional conservation that is beyond the means of most people.[/QUOTE]

A very valid point.
 
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