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DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 12:15:21 PM
Here are my latest efforts to find suitable smokeless powder hunting loads for Rshoker.

I have found so far that fillers are required to get reliable ignition of powders that I was testing. Yes you can just use an over powder wad to position the powder and get reliable ignition. But then there is the air space left between the over powder wad and the base of the bullet which is believe to be the cause of chamber ringing. As previously reported here Charles Dell found that the compressed column of air impacting the base of the bullet when the cartridge fired was most likely the cause of the ring. Dell looked at the various materials used a fillers and found Dacron did reduce ringing but was was the least effective of all the fillers. Kapok was the most effective.

I have been discussing fillers with the Double Rifle boys over on NitroExpress.com. The Double Rifle folks follow the Ross Seyfried’s preaching and compress as much Dacron as possible in the case to reduce the air space as much as possible. I follow Charles Dells suggestion to use Kapok as it appears to be more effective in reducing ringing than Dacron.

It seemed only appropriate to test this idea of compressing the Dacron, or in my case the Kapok, as much as possible.

I have been using a set weight of kapok for my load- 2 grs. I prefer uniformity in components in my load and 2 grs. appeared to fill the case quite well. I compressed as much kapok as I could into a case with the loads I am using and came up with 7 grs. I could probably get a little more in but that’s as much as I could get with out the kapok springing out of the case when I pulled the dowel out of the case to seat the bullet.

Here are the results

37 grs IMR 4198



2 grs kapok 10 rounds

Chronograph data.
1295 fps fastest
1180 fps slowest
115 fps Extreme Spread
1254 mean velocity
37 standard deviation



7 grs Kapok 10 rounds

Chronograph data
1318 fps fastest
1280 fps slowest
38 fps spread
1299 mean velocity
14 standard deviation

37 grs. XMR 5744



2 grs. Kapok 8 rounds

Chronograph data
1205 fps fastest
1112 fps slowest
93 fps spread
1145 fps mean velocity
36 standard deviation



7 grs. Kapok 8 rounds

Chronograph data
1250 fps fastest
1214 fps slowest
36fps spread
1233 fps Mean velocity
14 standard deviation


I think the fact that the SD’s came out the same is a coincidence. I believe if I had fired a larger number of rounds the readings would not have been the same. I do believe that the more compressed loads would still have a lower SD.

I am going to try compressed filler loads with BP and see what happens there. But that is in the future.

I will summarize all the loads I worked up on this project and put them in the Martini loads post. I will also make separate post on Smokeless powder hunting loads for the Martini Henry.
DD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.

B1acksmith
Gunboards Member


USA
99 Posts
Posted - 01/23/2006 : 6:44:47 PM

Been following yours, Richard's and others conversations on Pufflon and Kapok and CoW. I would like to start using Kapok, but I am all out of WWII life vests and my Kapok tree never sproted. Where can I get Kapok?

DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 01/23/2006 : 7:14:58 PM

Ross my friend, for you I will tell the secret...click here Internet Sites for Martinis, Related Material and Subjects scroll down and look for this entry:
Wad and Filler Materials
Durofelt, felt for wads - http://www.durofelt.com

Pufflon, ballistic filler - http://www.pufflon.com

Kapok - http://www.atrim.com/Page11.html
DD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.


John Wallace
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member


3488 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2006 : 06:09:50 AM
The Saudi Arabian government server blocks www.rizla.com , which suggests that it does exist. I think the filler of these cigarette filter tips is neatly measured and aligned portions of kapok. People must have been using them for smoking the wrong stuff.'I know what war means. I have been with the armies of all the belligerents except one, and I have seen men die, and go mad, and lie in hospitals suffering hell; but there is a worse thing than that. War means an ugly mob madness, crucifying the truth tellers, choking the artists, sidetracking reforms, revolutions and the working of social forces'.

John ReedEdited by - John Wallace on 01/26/2006 2:52:29 PM

DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2006 : 09:07:16 AM

John,

you need to fix that link. Also you need to give specific directions on how to find kapok in that link. All I could find was cigarette wrapping papers...might work for paper patchingDD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.


MCQueenie
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


USA
843 Posts
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 11:41:59 AM

I just bought a 1/4lb bag (a large "freezer bag" stuffed full) of kapok off E-bay if you want to try it out and don't want enough to stuff a couch.


edit...Geeze! Thats a looong winded URL. Just go to e-bay and serch for KAPOK STUFFING.

Censorship is the commonest social blasphemy because it is mostly concealed, built into us by indolence, self-interest and cowardice. John Osborne

Joke 'em if they can't take a ....Edited by - MCQueenie on 01/25/2006 11:46:10 AM

B1acksmith
Gunboards Member


USA
99 Posts
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 2:28:23 PM

Thanks. I kept getting new age sites trying to sell me Kapok Yoga pillows and herb tea. I keep forgetting to look at the Martini links. Got to do better.

Ross

richardwv
MH Forum Moderator


USA
1832 Posts
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 10:47:00 PM

Well I bought my carded wool from an all organic heritage breeds only sheep farm run by vegetarians that touts their fleece as washed in pure mountain spring water ....as if 85 grains of BP ramming it into the scrubber has time to appreciate it soft gentle all organic properties. It is just hard to find a cheap source of carded wool that someone hasn’t processed with dies and relaxing agents. Of course if you buy in quantity it just gives you an excuse to give some away and hook others on the Martini-Henry. My only regret is not having gone hunting and being able to show the sheep herders a productive result of their fine product.

Rich in WV…..savoring life one cartridge at a time!


DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 11:00:23 PM
Ouch, that ebay stuff is twice the price of the upholstery place!DD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.


MCQueenie
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


USA
843 Posts
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 01:34:40 AM
Yep, in fact the 1/4 pound I bought is 5.7 times as much as the upholstery place. I've got enough kapok to last a while for less than $10 delivered and I just don't want to waste that much kapok on mouse bedding. :DCensorship is the commonest social blasphemy because it is mostly concealed, built into us by indolence, self-interest and cowardice. John Osborne

Joke 'em if they can't take a ....

DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 06:49:44 AM

1/4 lb ain't gonna last long at 7 grs. a load for smokeless (250 rounds) or 2 grs. a load with black (875 rounds.) That will cover Saturday's shooting, what do you use for Sunday.
DD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.
Edited by - DoubleD on 01/26/2006 06:51:02 AM

MCQueenie
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


USA
843 Posts
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 08:53:55 AM

I dunno. Maybe there's some sheep nearby?
Censorship is the commonest social blasphemy because it is mostly concealed, built into us by indolence, self-interest and cowardice. John Osborne

Joke 'em if they can't take a ....

John Wallace
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member


3488 Posts
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 2:58:27 PM

Well, I've fixed the link, and it should work, although like the old Irish joke, if I wanted to get there, I wouldn't start from here. I certainly bought Rizla filter tips filled with what looked like kapok, in the U.K., but they may have been discontinued, or never been on the US market.

I would have thought cotton wool balls would have been a good substitute. Has anyone considered impregnating them with something to make them self-consuming? In my youth we used to buy flash wool, a similar looking substance which vanished with a flash when touched to a flame. I doubt if they were selling guncotton to kids, even in those days.'I know what war means. I have been with the armies of all the belligerents except one, and I have seen men die, and go mad, and lie in hospitals suffering hell; but there is a worse thing than that. War means an ugly mob madness, crucifying the truth tellers, choking the artists, sidetracking reforms, revolutions and the working of social forces'.

John Reed

Ross
Gunboards Premium Member


USA
125 Posts
Posted - 01/27/2006 : 11:26:05 PM

BiS,
I believe it is.
Flash Cotton Wool - 4 Grams
Very fibrous and fast-burning, flash cotton ignites faster and easier than Flash Paper, making it a great "primer."
Package contains 4 grams of cotton.
Price: £7.50 ($13.80)

Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross


Ray Newman
Gunboards Premium Member


USA
189 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 12:06:38 AM

John W: I've been thinking about your asuggestion of cotton balls. Well today in the cosmetic section of the store, I noticed 2 packages of "cotton" balls. One was 100% all natural cotton; the other some man-made fiber. For those who to try this, a careful look @ the labels might be in order.

John Wallace
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member


3488 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 05:07:12 AM

Indeed it would. Some man-made fibres might flare away to nothing quite helpfully (which I think is the ideal thing for a filler to do, once combustion is under way), but others might melt into gummy deposits.

In my childhood flash wool was sold to kids on the basis that nobody would ever use it as any kind of primer, would they, and if they did, it was their own idea, so there. I found numerous URLs for that 4g. pack, which is worth quoting for people in the UK. Most are the same price, but here is a cheaper one:

http://www.emagictricks.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=4235

As it stands, it is still a very expensive one, but such things are often sold that way when they are quite cheap to prepare for yourself, if you know how. I'd want to establish that it doesn't cause pressure of its own, but the fact that it has survived into the age of decimal currency (I still remember that two-thirds of a pound were sixteen shillings and eightpence) suggests that it isn't actual guncotton.

I think it was the Italians who used to load a low-powered guard cartridge for their military rifle with a single piece of nitrated paper, folded into a W cross-section to enter the case. It had the interesting effect that although it had a tiny loading density, its position couldn't change very much. I'm not suggesting anything producing propulsive gases, but surely it ought to be possible to produce something that would combust thoroughly without doing so. There are numerous nitrocelluloses, all the way down to celluloid.
'I know what war means. I have been with the armies of all the belligerents except one, and I have seen men die, and go mad, and lie in hospitals suffering hell; but there is a worse thing than that. War means an ugly mob madness, crucifying the truth tellers, choking the artists, sidetracking reforms, revolutions and the working of social forces'.

John ReedEdited by - John Wallace on 01/28/2006 05:13:36 AM

DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 09:41:16 AM

Heed John's warning skip the flash wool, you don't know what properties it brings to the chain of combustion of the powder.

Use the cotton balls or kapok. Order 10 lbs of Kapok. In a LoC BP load you will have enough for 35,000 rounds.

In hot dry weather the cotton balls may start fires.

One thing you should do before using cotton balls is burn one with a match. Some have reported here that the 100% cotton balls melt and don't burn. They ain't cotton!DD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.


GrantRCanada
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


Canada
886 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2006 : 11:56:54 AM
quote: Originally posted by John Wallace

....I would have thought cotton wool balls would have been a good substitute. Has anyone considered impregnating them with something to make them self-consuming? ....
The stuff one would use to turn cotton balls into "flash cotton" would be potassium nitrate - NCO3 - which is the oxygenizing component in black powder. Should be able to get it from a chemical supply house, I should think. IIRC, when I was using it (see below) my supply - crystals in a 500ml bottle - was obtained through a high school chemistry teacher - I didn't buy it, he just gave me a bottle about 1/3 full.

Back when I was shooting a lot of black powder muzzleloaders and such, I used to make my own combustible paper cartridges for cap & ball revolver with home-made "flash paper". Found the secret for making it somewhere back then: i.e. soak the paper in a "supersaturated solution" of pottasium nitrate (i.e. dissolved in water " 'til it won't take no more" - I did that simply by filling my partial bottle of NCO3 with hot water- anything which wouldn't dissolve just settled out in the bottom as it cooled.) Once the paper was thouroughly soaked in this solution, all excess liquid was drained off and the paper was then air dried. I used to hasten the drying process, and ensure that the finished product was minimally wrinkled, by using a laundry iron on low setting, but presumably a similar result could be obtained with cotton balls, even more easily by soaking them, squeezing out excess liquid and then drying them in the oven on low heat.

This paper would "flash" combust, and I imagine that cotton wool so treated would do the same ... since the NCO3 is simply releasing oxygen to permit complete and near-instantaneous combustion of the cotton (or paper) I don't believe that it would add significantly to pressure. Ar any rate, such a filler would certainly not be anything like "gun cotton" or the like, and one should not have to make any more allowance for it than an equal weight of black powder, I shouldn't think.
Grant Rombough
Medicine Hat, AB, Canada
Edited by - GrantRCanada on 01/28/2006 12:18:29 PM

John Wallace
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member


3488 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 6:07:04 PM


I'm sure saltpetre treated cotton, like paper, would be harmless as far as pressure was concerned. Note, though, that cotton string, so treated, becomes an extremely slow-burning fuse. I'd want to test just what happens to more isolated fibres under high temperature and pressure - e.g. by firing at paper suspended a foot or so in front of the muzzle. After all, if the cartridge in your chamber took a second or so to burn away, you'd hardly notice it. But a momentary cloud of incandescent particles might make a difference to the risk of fire, or serious social interaction with the man on the next firing-point.

Not to quibble, but people are liable to pick only the odd phrase out of what they read, so potassium nitrate is KNO3 and potassium nitrate (similar, and once used in some black powders for quarrying etc.) is NaN03. A quick and easy way, if expensive, to lay your hands on some of the former is to dissolve some black powder in water, and avoid whatever doesn't dissolve.'I know what war means. I have been with the armies of all the belligerents except one, and I have seen men die, and go mad, and lie in hospitals suffering hell; but there is a worse thing than that. War means an ugly mob madness, crucifying the truth tellers, choking the artists, sidetracking reforms, revolutions and the working of social forces'.

John Reed

Ian
Gunboards Member


Canada
34 Posts
Posted - 01/29/2006 : 12:39:01 PM
John , did you mean to say Sodium Nitrate, ? I used that many yrs ago to make black powder and while it may be good for quarrying it is very ugly and dirty burning and not for your gun. cheers Ian.cheers Ian.

DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 01/29/2006 : 11:34:37 PM

I have never seen a reference by those like Keith, Wright or Seyfried to the use of flash materials in the loading of the big Brit cartridges. To me it seems a waste of time when so many inert material do just fine. There are just to many unknowns. Seems if it were of any useful value it would already would be done or at least talked about seriously by those in the know.

Ross Seyfried and Greame Wright suggest filling the empty space in the case with fillers. I found that following the advice of Seyfried and compressing as much filler as possible does appear to give better results. At least thats how it appears from the results I posted abouve.

I haven't given cotton a serious try yet. Have tried it and it worked. Just have played with it.

TP usually shreds upon firing but not always. I wrote it off a long time ago when I found a solid slug of it down range. I can only imagine what would happen if you followed Seyfried's advice and compressed as much TP as you could in a case.

While working to find the right density of kapok, as I reported I got misfires with loosley packed quantities. One of things I noticed when I pulled the kapok out was that the kapok closest to the primer seemed to be shattered into dust. Now there is no doubt that all the kapok is not being pulverized as plenty drifts in the air after firing. If the kapok is shattering into dust that would be nice.

Testing of the theory will have to wait a couple of years until I return from South Africa.

DD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.
 

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Sirs, as a newbie question, instead of using discharging fillers, couldn't a measured amount of high-temp flexible coating be installed into a clean spinning case (so only the sides get any) to create a smaller tube? Sorry if this is too dumb.
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Sirs, as a newbie question, instead of using discharging fillers, couldn't a measured amount of high-temp flexible coating be installed into a clean spinning case (so only the sides get any) to create a smaller tube? Sorry if this is too dumb.
Mike
Not dumb at all.

Yes indeed that could be done, but at what expense and is the return worth it. The equipment needed to do such a process for a one time application just would not be worth the effort for the typical reloader.

Some years back before we we had the latest run of drawn cases, we had cases turned from solid brass rod. Many of those cases had a straight cylinder bored inside. Those cases made from extruded rod do not have the correct metallurgical properties to be used with smokeless powder.
 

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I have allways used around 20gr of shotgun powder with a tissue wad on top,and so far,havent ringed a chamber.I dont think it would,because it takes about a dozen reloadings to blow out a case to chamber size,and the necks never expand beyond fitting a patched bullet.The powder I have been using has become unavailable,which is unfortunate because it was accurate and free.I have tried ADI AP70 N,which works the same way,but isnt accurate.I have also ringed 303 chambers using the same method with Unique speed powders,but smelly barrels aint a big deal.But enough to cause some doubt,so I have decided to start experimenting with a duplex load of TB and something else,about 5gr to start.I have a carbine that has a squashed muzzle,so if something untoward happens,its just a wallhanger anyway.Regards John.
 
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