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0,318 Caliber Rolling Blocks?
Printed from: Gunboards
Topic URL: http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=221279
Printed on: 09/11/2007
Topic:
Topic author: NiklasP
Subject: 0,318 Caliber Rolling Blocks?
Posted on: 04/10/2007 6:13:41 PM
Message:

On Simpson Ltd webbsite are several rolling blocks listed as being 0,318 caliber. Are these really 8X58RD? Or, are they something else? If so, what?

Thanks,
Niklas
Replies:
Reply author: sbhva
Replied on: 04/10/2007 10:03:53 PM
Message:

It depends on which rolling block you are talking about. Keep in mind that the rolling block guns are not marked for chambering in anyway. You have to take measurements of the bore and chamber to determine what it is. If you have a serial number, I could check my notes to see if it is one that I happened to take some measurements of.
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 04/10/2007 11:09:36 PM
Message:

There are several of them, notable by caliber given as 0,318. The very first one on list is "318 cal; 98% blue, excellent bore, very good stock, 27'''' barrel, Model 1867, manufactured 1872, stock disk, antique, s/n 130xx C5666 $695.00"

I would presume that someone simply measured bore diameter, rather than groove-to-groove diameter, and that these are some nominal 8mm chambering. But which?

If one called Simpson Ltd, would anyone really know that the chamberings are?

Thanks,
Niklas
Reply author: Pettson
Replied on: 04/11/2007 03:31:51 AM
Message:

Those seem to be sporterized m1867-89's, and should be in 8x58R Danish. Nominal bore dia would be .323, but variations do occur, so it is a good idea to slug the barrel for best performance...

Pettson
Reply author: sbhva
Replied on: 04/11/2007 1:01:00 PM
Message:

Niklas;

Unfortunately, no one at Simpsons is going to know exactly what the chambering is because these guns are not marked. A military rolling block with a bore around .320 and a rimmed case is most likely 8x58R Danish. A sporterized military roller should be the same. A commercial roller with a bore around .320 and a rimmed case could be any number of different chamberings. The only way to be certain as to what you have is to do a chamber cast and slug the bore or do a bore cast. This is realatively easy using the proper tools (cerosafe, a pouring device, and a heat source). With a roller, you should disassemble the action to get the extrator(s) out of the way. I think you can prove an 8x58R Danish chambering just using a calipers since it is a straight case.

Of course our resident expert on rollers and chamber casts, etc. is Rudybolla and perhaps he will chime in with some advice. I am very new to this whole business.

If you wanted one of these from Simpsons, I would make it clear at the time of purchase that if the chambering turns out to be different than what you expect, you will return the gun. I think they will work with this.
Reply author: Pettson
Replied on: 04/11/2007 1:54:06 PM
Message:

I agree with Steve on the commercial RB's. Commercial 8mm RB's from Husqvarna could in fact be anyting but 8x58RD... And by the way, the Dane is a bottleneck case, not straight.
In a commercial 8 mm gun the most notable suspects would be 8x57R (the .360 necked down, tiny shoulder), 8x58R Sauer, straight wall, tapered), or perhaps the 8,15x46R (long tapered shoulder).

On the first page of the Simpsons list referred to I see only m/1867-89's in original and sporterized shapes. These should be, as noted earlier, chambered for the Dane.
On the second page (I have only looked through the first two pages so far) these are some commercial RB shotguns and a 6 mm, probably a Flobert thingy.
But I wonder about the m/1867 at the very top, listed as being a .45-70?

http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=160_211_223

Generally speaking, a commercial RB is made by Husqvarna, does not have the usual serial no, year and manufacturers mark on the action. Serial number is typically found on the barrel, above or below the woodline. The stocks are different too of course, for the most part stocks on military sprters weren't replaced. On commercial guns they are usually better ergonomically, and many have cheek pieces. The fastening of the forend is a quick giveaway also. Most, but not all of the commercial guns have the forend fixed to the barrel by means of a brass wedge, rather than the screws used on military rifles.

Pettson
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 04/11/2007 2:45:44 PM
Message:

Thanks Pettson!

Nice little lesson about differences between military rolling blocks (always Carl Gustafs Stads?) and commercial Husqvarna rolling blocks. I do much more like stocks on commercial Husqvarna rolling blocks but, the 8X58RD cartridge appeals to me because of its large flexability in loading.

Maybe if I learn enough from you guys about Swedish rolling blocks I will feel comfortable to order one over phone, maybe. I did visit Simpsons last year and looked through lots of Husqvarna hammer doubles, and rejected every one I had culled out based on their pictures and discriptions. I did find a nice one, finally. Not very conducive to buying over phone or Internet.

Steve,

IF I ever buy a Swedish rolling block it will be for shooting. Functionality and mechanical condition are more important than surface appearance, I can and will improve that. I am picky, I don't want another project gun that needs serious work on firing pin(s), lockup, chamber(s), etc. After my experience with Husqvarna hammer doubles they have, I may just put any buying off till I am out east again.

Thanks again to both of you,
Niklas
Reply author: rudybolla
Replied on: 04/11/2007 5:41:36 PM
Message:

Yeah, what Steve and Pettson said. My work is done here!
Reply author: sbhva
Replied on: 04/11/2007 11:01:03 PM
Message:

Pettson;

Thanks for pointing out my mistake about the 8x58R Danish case. I was thinking of the 12.7x44 when I was writing my reply.
Reply author: rudybolla
Replied on: 04/12/2007 07:54:07 AM
Message:

This is definitely not a .45-70. Probably the listing was written by one of the guys who hates the Swedish rollers.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=160_211_223
Reply author: Pettson
Replied on: 04/12/2007 08:02:20 AM
Message:

quote:Originally posted by rudybolla

This is definitely not a .45-70. Probably the listing was written by one of the guys who hates the Swedish rollers.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=160_211_223





Pettson
Reply author: sbhva
Replied on: 04/12/2007 08:52:41 AM
Message:

Yes, the situation is frustrating. Be aware that not every gun listed as a Husqvarna really is.
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 04/12/2007 1:07:15 PM
Message:

Given that one cannot tell cartridge chambering of Swedish rolling blocks, because such is not stamped on gun, how can Simpson Ltd., or any other seller, accurately give the chambering? That is, short of chamber casts and measurements.

I would presume that any military configuration rolling block, made in Sweden, with rimfire firing pin is, indeed, 12,17X42R. And that one that had clearly been converted to central fire is now 12,7X44R. And small caliber (8mm) military configuration Swedish rolling blocks are always 8X58RD.

You folks make the situation with Husqvarna commercial rolling blocks sound bad enough that I even wonder how I could reliably determine cartridge chambering, EVEN WITH GUN IN HAND, while standing in any gun store. Do I hafta become expert in Swedish rolling blocks? Or, can one play "safe Russian roulette" with a table of possible cartridge dimensions and a suitable calipers?

Yea, those rollers that Simpson, Ltd lists as chambered for 45-70 or 450, etc., etc. increase my discomfort level.

Thanks,
Niklas

Reply author: sbhva
Replied on: 04/12/2007 1:32:49 PM
Message:

Niklas;

You can get "in the ballpark" with gun in hand, a calpers, and a table of obsolete European cartridge dimensions, but you will need to do a chamber cast to be sure. The differences between the 8x58R Sauer and the 8x57R 360 are very small. Husqvarna chambered commercial rolling blocks in both of these.

In general if you find any old European gun that the seller claims is in some old US cartridge, be very cautious. There are many more old obsolete European cartridges than US. It seem like every gun maker tried to be just a little different just like every country was a little different with their military chamberings.

It may seem a little overwhelming at first (I know I was), but I have begun to enjoy the challenge. My current favorite is a commercial big bore Husqvarna rolling block that I picked up at Simpson's just after Christmas (my present to me). We (my friend the expert in chamberings and I) knew the gun had a .45 bore with a slight bottle neck cartridge when I bought it. The next step was a chamber cast to take dimensions from which told us it was a .45 bore with a .500 case, and then the fun began. After looking through many reference books and measuring odd looking old collector cartridges at gun shows, I have determined that it is in fact chambered for an old black powder English round - the 500/450 #1 Express. There are about a half dozen different cartridges all based on a .500 case with a .45 bore! Now I am on a quest for some loaded ammo and of course brass and dies.
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 04/12/2007 2:36:10 PM
Message:

Thanks Steve!

However, you describe just the situation I wish to avoid. That is, a long, twisty search to identify the chambering, then to find brass, and loading dies, and bullets, and loading data, and......... All just to enjoy target shooting and some hunting with still another nice old gun from Sweden. I really want to start with high confidence knowledge of chambering being one of the more common european chamberings for which brass and bullets are "readily" available, cartridges such as 9,3X72R, 9,3X57R(360), 8X58RD, 8,15X42R, 8X58Sauer, etc.

To change the subject somewhat, I keep hearing that one has to expect the chambers of the 8X58RDs rollers to be quite oversize, at least enough that SOP has to be neck sizing only. Does this ring true to you?

Having to neck size only, even to not resize at all (SOP with my 12,7X44R chambered barrel of M17 kombi, thanks to an oversize chamber, that needs 0,520 bullets to shoot well), is no big deal but it can easily make for rifles that do not group all that well (at least in part because of non-concentric chambers. Another source of frustration for one that likes rifles to shoot nice small groups.

Thanks,
Niklas
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In reference to 1867-89 Swedish rolling block sporters.

I've seen one built on a 1867 blackpowder action with sliding extractor and original breecchblock and hammer, that had a Danish Krag military stepped barrel fitted. The groove diameter was .318" not the .323"-.324"+ ususally seen on Swedish rolling blocks.

I've also seen, held in my hands, a 1867 blackpowder Swedish 12,7x44R sporter that had a 6.5x55 m/96 Swedish barrel installed and had massive extractor mods done to the breechblock that entailed an extractor fitted to the breechblock to extract the rimless 6.5x55. This particular rifle swallowed a US field gauge so the rifle was de-barreled and sold as an action only with the barrel stub separately (lathe turned by myself).

There are many oddball rolling blocks that have come out of Sweden that do not follow the normal pattern of rifles. Beware.

Dutchman
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Good advice.
I have also seen a couple of those nice little HVA bolt action single shots, those that locks in the bolt root only, reworked in less than safe ways.
I particularly remember one that was rebarreled for 6,5x55, and one apparently unsuccessful attempt to turn a .30-30 into a .308... Scary.

In their original chamberings, .25 and .32-20, .30-30 and .45-70 these are handy little rifles, but bodgesmith conversions, and conversions to overpowered cartridges, might cause fatal results.

There was a very tragic accident with fatal outcome in Sweden just last week. A guy was killed when his, allegedly, old rolling block turned into a shrapnel charge. I don't know the details of that accident, but hoping to find out.
So as Dutchman says, beware. Careful inspection, barrel slugging and chamber casting are always good ideas when it comes to loading and shooting these old timers.

Pettson
 

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Hej Petter

Please make every attempt to gain information concerning rolling block failures (and Mauser failures). They are the most pointed means of educating shooters and handloaders to the dangers of taking things for granted. I worry alot about this topic.


Dutchman
 
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