Gunboards Forums banner

1 - 4 of 4 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,734 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
(Original title: WHY??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Imported from Second Board.

* * *

Vulch
Moderator English Gun Pub
Australia
6297 Posts
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 10:28:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, you all know how much I love Swedish Mausers, but WHY THE HELL can't I get ANY sort of respectable accuracy out of them like so many others claim?????

I shot 30 rounds off the bench yesterday, with Yugoslav PPU modern ammo. The group was centred, but it looked like a 410 shotgun at 5 feet - about a 4 inch wide group, with about 8 inch vertical dispersion! APPALLING!!!

I shot my 308 Israeli Kar98k Mauser off the same bench also with Yugo PPU ammo, and turned in this VERY VERY tidy group - the first two were warmers, then she tightened right up phenomenally!


http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Vulch/20031015222757_israeli byf 41 target 15 Oct.jpg Click on thumbnail at the end of the thread.

Download Attachment:
35.84 KB

So, I own 5 Swedes:
1. 1903 CG M38 (M96 conversion)
2. 1915 CG M96B
3. 1917 CG M96
4. 1941 HVA M38
5. 1942 HVA M38B

Out of all of them, the only one that will produce ANy accuracy is the 42 HVA M38 (quite good).

I have used PMC (good surprisingly in the 42 M38), PPU, Norma, Norma Match, Norma Military, Remington, and Winchester. Norma in any flavour is woeful through any of them, which is VERY disappointing.

So, why? Everyone claims they get stunning accuracy out of them, so why can't any of mine? ALL have EXCELLENT PLUS bores, every one is all matching original, and ALL headspace properly.

Give me some tips guys. I know shooting 100 yards with the 300 meter rear sight minimum setting is not great, but I am NOT changing blades on ANY of them. I will try 300 yard shooting with them one day (that is reserved for my Lee Enfields so far).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



kriggevaer
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
1709 Posts
Posted - 10/16/2003 : 12:17:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

G'day Mate,
Interesting question - with that many Swedes and the different kinds of ammo, with only one of them performing, I think, logically, that it is something you are subconsciously (or maybe not) doing when acquiring your sight picture. I can't think that you are flinching with the relatively mild recoil of the 6.5x55 cartridge. I don't think the difference in the 300 yard sight regulation and the 100 yard range you are shooting at should have much of an effect. You still should be able to group well if your sight picture and shooting position are consistent. My Hornady ballistics table shows a 6.5, 140 gr,BTHP match bullet at a velocity of 2500 fps only shooting about 5.8 inches high at 100 yards. I've read your posts before and you appear to be a well experienced marksman. Are you shooting for group or are you trying to adjust point of impact with point of aim from shot to shot? Hmmmm? Another factor is perhaps you are expecting too much out of your rifles, although the group you describe is pretty exasparating. I will probably get jumped on, but here goes, I too have read the posts where some people are claiming consistent 1 MOA or better groups from their C&R rifles. I would take that with a grain of salt. I have a 1943 M38 Husky that will almost do it, a 1970 no-maker M39 Finn that has done it twice (out of a few hundred rounds fired), and my K31s can shoot under 2 MOA any day of the week. I also have true 1 MOA match rifles that I can't consistently shoot off a rest at that level, so - I don't know. Or perhaps its that Coreollis (sic) Effect that makes your guys' toilets flush backwards that is causing the disjunction. Anyway, I would be looking for something that you are changing as you shoot the Swedes that maybe you don't do with your other rifles. Thanks for tolerating the long post. Knew a lad from Adelaide that put himself through college commercial hunting blue flyers and reds down there with an old beat up Mauser and surplus ammo. Hope you post the solution if you get it figured out.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vulch
Moderator English Gun Pub
Australia
6297 Posts
Posted - 10/16/2003 : 03:49:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks.

I ALWAYS shoot for groups. So long as the first shot is on paper - doesn't matter where - I will maintain the SAME sight picture, and fire for groupings.

I don't fire my Swedes ANY different to any other rifles I own, at least not to my knowledge, EXCEPT... One thing I DO find somewhat more troublesome sight picture wise with the Swedes is that because of the long sight radius, my eye tries alternating focus on the front sight blade AND the target. I am sure that MAY alter the POI / POA somewhat. I don't have that problem with barley corn sighted rifles, or my SMLE's (which has a similar sight picture to the Swedes, but much shorter sighting radius). Perhaps that is why I shoot my M38's better???

It is VERY frustrating, and one I so dearly want to resolve. Surely Norma ammo cannot be that bad....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1gcp
Gunboards Member
96 Posts
Posted - 10/16/2003 : 06:28:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vulch, yours is the $6M question!

I was feeling the same yesterday with the accuracy of 4 of my K31s and was reduced to say tomorrow's another day. But then I decided to pick up my 1919 M96 to console myself and shot this 6 shot group. Thank God for Swedes.
1gcp

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0703/George/Swede/4867046c.jpg

Edited by - 1gcp on 10/16/2003 08:55:11 AM


jebber
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
USA
743 Posts
Posted - 10/16/2003 : 08:42:37 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm, it's not the shooter & it's not the ammo (PMC is the only stuff that I've shot that my Swedes didn't like) so what's up with the rifle(s)? A few things to try:

pull the action & reassemble paying close attention to the tightness of the action screws.

shoot rifle with cleaning rod, without c-rod and with c-rod screwed to refusal. (some folks say that the swede c-rod can be used to tune the rec'r by tightness)

try shooting w/o handguards (shouldn't really matter as swedes are dang near perfect w/ stock/handguard fitting)

If all else fails .... send them to me!


curtis
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
1376 Posts
Posted - 10/16/2003 : 7:15:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been suspecious about the results that a lot of people claim to be getting from their rifles. I need a scope to get to 1 moa or less. Infact only my MKV .300 Weatherby and M77 .220 Swift will fire 3 back to back 5 round groups of less that 1 MOA and I have won matches with both rifles. I need a flat top fore sight to consistantly better 2MOA. Have you tried one of the lens attachments to your shooting glasses? They seem to help me under a lot of lighting conditions. I tend to get vertical stringing with the v/inverted v configureations.


spook7073
Gunboards Super Premium Member
USA
446 Posts
Posted - 10/16/2003 : 9:43:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solution to the problem: Since you are only able to shoot .410 shotgun patterns anyway, just ship me the 1917 and the 1915 and I'll see that you get a nice .410 boltaction in return .

Eddie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BigBill
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
3280 Posts
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 09:29:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I benchrest my swede by pulling the gun down into the rests and adjusting the rear rest so the gun lines up on the target. I don't use the sling wrapped in my arm to hold the gun it may pull/bend the barrel. I'm also using Sellier & Bellot ammo and I'm getting great accuracy at 100yds out of my M96 Carl Gustaf. And sometimes we are in a rush and forget the "breathing" I was taught to take one deep breath let it out the take another let it half way out, then hold it and shoot. BigBill

I like to rest it this way to either sight it in or see if its good/ok. Then i hold the gun by itself and shoot and see how good i am with it, with no outside help as if I was hunting.

I've had swat guys come over to see what I'm shooting to see what I'm shooting with such accuracy(they checked out my targets). They were impressed it was a "one hundred year old swede rifle". One of their kids told me he has scoped guns that aren't that good.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 10:01:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, On another forum, I wrote a post concerning harmonics and tuning of rifles using the action screws.

Nothing new, but often overlooked.

The rifle bore is clean, crown is good, ammo is acceptable( ammo for true accuracy beyond 100 yards is another story-post)

One has checked barrel channel and handguard channel for tight places.
He understands shooting, sight alignment,breathing and trigger work.

For most bolt action rifles, the action screws will be torqued to between 50-70 inch/pounds of torque.
Now they don't tell the average Swede rifleman this sort of thing..:)

For my Swedes, I have found that 62 inch/pounds of torque on the action screws tunes the rifle to my handloads.MOA accuracy is not a myth, nor is such shooting relegated to the extreme few chosen snipers and weapons..:)

The receiver screw threads and action screws need to be clean and free of grit, lightly lubed.
The barrel-action is assembled and torqued down lightly by hand until reasonably snug.
At this point, I will take the rifle and drop it barrel up and vertical lightly to a carpeted floor so the buttplate hits squarely.This helps insure the action is fitted well against the recoil lug, such as it is in a milsurp..:)

Then the torque screwdriver comes out.Torque the front action screw to 60 inch pounds, then the rear.Mark the position of the screws with a tiny piece of tape on their heads overlapping to the floorplate.

With your ammo of choice, go to the range and do everything right at 25 yards.Big target.Look for a tight 5 shot group in slow fire.
Adjust the torque on the action screws an 1/8 turn up and see IF the group snugs up.Repeat until the rifle likes the ammo..:)

Barrel-action-stockworks harmonics are individual with every rifle and every load.Extreme variations in ambient temps can skew things as well.
After all your tweaking of ammo, rifle has been done to the best of your abilities, RETURN to focus on 'perfect practice' techniques.

The man behind the rifle is usually the deciding factor in consistent accuracy..jim

jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 10:19:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would add this post-script:
I am a handloader and have some 45 years of decent shooting and hunting experience, professional and civilian.

Bench work with a chrono is great for determining the potential of any rifle and load.Real life shooting-hunting may not resemble such controlled situations even remotely.

Once I have determined that the setup has acceptable potential, most of my practice is done via position shooting.Prone, sitting, kneeling standing.Hasty sling, loop sling, bipod.

I am a hunter and citizen-rifleman, not a bench rester or competitor..:)

Any of my rifles has MOA or better potential and I have demonstrated such from the bench under a variety of conditions and distances to 300 yards..which is max effective clean-killing distance with the 6,5x55 FOR GAME OF ANY SORT imho.
(2-legged coyotes can be engaged at longer distances as humane sentiments don't enter the equation when one is defending himself)

In position shooting, being able to engage a clay pigeon sized target and hit with 75% consistency in less than six seconds out to 200 yards is very acceptable accuracy-shooting for me and my purposes.jim


reddog
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
1050 Posts
Posted - 10/19/2003 : 12:15:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have two, a 1904 CG M96 and a 1941 Husqvarna M38 and both shoot well with military surplus and handloads. I never got less than 1" 5 shot groups at 100 yards but have been between 1" and 1 1/4" many times. Maybe get someone to check out your shooting style to catch some errors. Also, if shooting for groups, don't peek at each shot. Shoot all 5 and then look. If you peek you will get nervous and blow the group.


jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 10/19/2003 : 08:27:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ideally, Have a spotter who has a small mock target who will mark each of your shots in the string as you shoot.No talking or peeking..:)
That way, IF there is a pattern to any fliers( such as cold-clean barrel or the last shot as the barrel warms up and a tight spot in the stockworks exerts pressures on the barrel for ex) you can pick it up.
The shooter focus on and maintains as consistent a hold on the spot downrange as he can thru the string.

IF you have a compadre who is also a decent rifleman, have him shoot your rifles and ammo and see IF similar performance is attained when another is behind the rifle.
Attend to wind if there is any.Try and pick a day that is calm and before it gets hot enough where mirage may play a factor in sight picture.jim


Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
USA
848 Posts
Posted - 10/19/2003 : 7:43:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've read your posts for years,and am convinced you know what you're doing.My guess is you mastered the basics of shooting years ago.The truth is,most shooters can't consistently shoot one inch groups,regardless of what rifle/ammo combination they are using.Most " moa rifles" are really 2 inch group rifles,that occasionally turn in one inch groups.So don't use those "stories" as a benchmark.Having said that,my 1899 Oberndorf 96 WILL post 1 1/8 to 1 1/2 groups with 140 gr. Winchester.Four inch groups are acceptable,but not what you want from rifles that are known for accuracy.You already know this though. Do stay away from PMC Swede ammo.It is crap,and I believe most people on this forum will back me on this.Since you are an Enfield guy,is it possible you have the king screw tightened MUCH more than the rear-action screw? this could cause some problems with your Swedes.Good luck.

* * *

End note from
Carcano
Posted: 10th September 2007

1. I like the honesty of this thread. I also take the many "small groups" resp. "MOA" claims on the 'Net with a large spoon of salt.

2. Many helpful tips and suggestions here - thanks to all contributors!

3. Among PMC ammo, the Match Line with the Sierra 140 gr HPBT grouped well in my two Swedes; the rest was bad, accuracy-wise.

Carcano

Follows the original pic from Vulch, showing his contrasting Israeli Mauser .308 group:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,734 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Poor Vulch eventually was redeemed. Here is his posting in a later thread;

* * *

Vulch
Moderator English Gun Pub
Australia
6297 Posts
Posted - 09/10/2004 : 7:40:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Changing ammo for a second, personally, I have always had problems with Swede military surplus ammo, in my M96's as well as M38's. Every load seemed hot, and extraction was ALWAYS difficult, regardless of batch or cleanliness of bore (always patch out a bore before shooting regardless). And accuracy was always so so.

I have had loads of woes with accuracy and my Swedes, to the point of almost selling them all. Military stuff gave me 5 inch vertically strung groups, and Norma civilian gave me 4 inch groups. I tried PMC, and the groups shrank to about 3.5 inches. So, in almost desperation, I tried the current PPU commercial loads, and bada bing, down to 1.5 to 2 inch groups!

In a recent test of PPU, I set up a 6 inch square plate of 0.25 inch boiler metal at 300 yards. Set my M38 (Carl Gustaf 1903) up, loaded with PPU, and fired 5 shots. 5 shots went THROUGH the plate, and made a 3 inch group, shot OFF HAND! I was impressed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,734 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I shall add a more recent posting from Swedeman because it fits in here so well:

Swedeman
Gunboards Super Premium Member
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 6:37:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to add that every rifle has its own likes and dislikes when it comes to ammo / loads. You have only tried one load combiniation in these rifles. You need to experiment with handloads and/or buy a variety of loaded ammo.

I don't reload, but I have about a dozen different brands that I shoot in my Swedes ... Swede surplus, Sellier & Bellot (2 types), FNM, Remington, Winchester, Federal (2 types / grades), Hornady, Norma, PMC (not the HOT one), etc.
Some of my Swedes definitely like one over the others, and they are not the same brands necessarily. None like the Remington ... go figure! One rifle will shoot 4-inch groups with the Remington and 1-inch groups with the Federal or Winchester, another likes the Winchester ammo or military surplus the best ... you never know until you try.

One other thing that may be causing a problem is the bedding / wood-to-metal contact / fit. There is a procedure for properly seating the action into the stock and for checking for binding problems.

I bet that you can get 1-inch groups from your rifles after going through Jim's cleaning and check-out procedure, properly seating the action into the wood and correcting any binding problems, and trying different loads / brands of ammo. Of course, as Jim said, the shooter will have to do his part, too!

Swedeman
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,734 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Improving the rifle's accuracy step by step

swedeadmirer
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 05:32:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is just a little word of encouragement for any of you who have had an M96 that isn't shooting well.
My new M96 was shooting about 4 moa & it was fairly clean I thought. ( I used a load I know works in 5 other swedes). I did a quick crowning using the ball bearing / grinding paste method as given in the book "the Poor man's sniper rifle" and it was only slightly better. After some more cleaning and a re -crowning with my mates proper Swedish crowning tool the group has come down to about 1-2 moa open sights/benchrested. I reckon the errors due to my sighting are now the main reason for a couple of flyers & i intend fitting an elit peep sight to squeeze out better results - happy ending!

I had originally taken the action/barrel out of the timber and some people say it takes 20 rnds to improve but another expert says this shouldnt happen - who knows?



jim in Oregon
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 6:20:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Swedeadmirer,
I have often encouraged folks to REALLY clean the bores on their Swedes... even when they appear to the eye to be bright and shiny. Often lots of old powder residue and gild metal from jacketing lurking in thin layers in the grooves.

Concerning the old adage that it takes 20 shots to settle the rifle down after removing stockworks from barrel... NOT necessarily. Your first shot will be as good as it'll get concerning 'settling in' if you follow this simple procedure:

1. Providing all is clean and well fitting, torque the action screws starting at the front and finishing at the rear to 60-62 inch pounds. You can tweak the torque a bit but the parameters I've given should be very close.

2. BEFORE you torque them finally, assemble barrel action and bands to stockworks and just hand tighten the action screws. Then drop the rifle from about a foot up, butt down, on a carpeted surface several times to insure all is well seated in the stockworks.

3. Then torque up...front then rear. IF you don't have a torque screwdriver, ask for one from Midway or Brownells for Father's day.:)



para
Australia
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 09:58:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The best stuff we have here in australia in my mind for cleaning out a fouled, not copper fouled bore is SHORT SCRUB DEFOUL. It has a very very fine pumice material suspended in oil. Very easy to use once well shaken.
It won't eat away at the metal in the bore and gets all the built up carbon espically in the throat where most fire hardened fouling takes place. Products like JB's paste and some of the metal cleaning compunds used can be very harsh on the bores. One case is a bloke who was very anal with his cleaning using a metal cleaner, actually rounded off the square edges of his rifling rendering the accuracy of his F class rifle useless.
Defoul just removes fouling without affecting the metal. Defoul your barrel and try again, also use a cooper solvent ( if you haven't allready) to make sure there is no copper fouling left in the barrel. You know you have all the copper out when there is no more blue colour left on the patches. That is with Sweets anyway.

Cheers NED



jim in Oregon
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 11:09:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I use Sweet's 762 copper solvent (8 minutes in the bore then clean) alternated with any good powder solvent like Hoppes or Shooters choice. Sometimes initially, this alternation of different solvents needs to be done five to ten times as each solvent cleans SOME fouling but not the other and so you insure the layers of crud in the grooves are removed.
 
1 - 4 of 4 Posts
Top