[clamdigger]

Especially for Guisan, do you have any pictures of Swiss competitors using the K31 in competitions? Do they typically use slings? The way the sling is attached on the side makes it difficult to hold it steady. Or is it just me? I don't think I have seen a picture of a competitor using a K31 sling. I have seen some mention of replacing the barrel band with a 1903 band so the sling would be attached on the bottom and make it easier to use the sling in shooting. I am almost tempted to try this on one of my K31s.

 

[Guisan]

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/reply/19183#reply-19183

Guisan.

 

[jdub]

Sling

Question about the K-31 sling here too. Does the "slip" on the sling supposed to stay about halfway down the sling? B/c mine just slides all the way up when I use the sling to carry.

Also, one of my slings is dry rotted and cracking. Is there a conditioner that I can use on it. Anything around the house, cheape, or do I have to order some kind of leather treatment? Sorry to hijack thread, thaks for those pics too.

 

[TFoley]

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/reply/19183#reply-19183

Guisan.

Please notice that the shooter in the link is using a K31 with dioptre sights. In this particular competition the use of the sling as a support is permitted. I understand that in competitions with the issued sights the shooter is allowed to use his knapsack or backback to rest the weapon, but not the issue sling, which is designed for carrying the weapon. Certainly on the couple of occasions that I have shot in Switzerland with the as-issued K31 most everybody was shooting off their backpack.

See also Will Durant's comment -

'Will Durant Re: What sling technique do you use? #1 [-]

Posts: 1537
(08/09/06 16:55:22)
Reply Quote MoreMy Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts The technique that you describe is an excellant one.However,it is not allowed in formal Swiss shooting.I have used it with my K31s in non-Swiss shooting and prefer it.Will '


tac

 

[BobS]

I would not recommend a two-point sling rig, puts a bending moment on the stock that can move your point of impact, sometimes unpredictably.

The following is not a Swiss method, but what I have used very successfully in US competition for many years. YMMV.

Now go and shoot 'em all in the middle.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

 

[gil]

how about us left eyed shooters.

K-31 is one of a few open sighted military rifles I can shoot with iron sights as I approach 60. I must do so left handed though. Is there anyway to figure to rig the sling for a south paw?
thanks
gil

 

[Parashooter]

The method Bob has demonstrated requires attachment only at the forward swivel. Lefties can do the same in reverse. Flipping the band so the bow is on the right is optional. Some would consider it better to leave it on the left and apply the conventional half-twist to the sling before inserting the arm, a detail you'll notice Bob has intentionally omitted for the right-hand shooter with the left-side swivel.

 

[BobS]

Lefty ...

I briefly dabbled with shooting left handed two years ago because of diabetic retinopathy and cataracts; my right eye was deteriorating faster than my left. I used a Burgin device and simply mirror-imaged the illustrated sling set-up. I did reverse the lower band so I did not have to put the half turn in the sling. Parashooter is right, I intentionally do not put the half turn in the sling when using the side-mount. Using the half turn always induced a cant to the rifle. Elimninating the half turn eliminated the cant, and "eureka", success in the scores that I posted. YMMV.

You could also replace the carbine lower band with the lower band of the rifle, which has the sling bow on the bottom instead of the side. Then you can rig the sling as you are used to doing with the M1903, M1, M14, M16, &tc. If you do this, though, the carbine is then not "as issued", and it's not legal for CMP "as issued" matches. (there is a specific exception in the rules that allows the use of the US Sling, M1; or the Sling, M1907 on any foreign rifle)

BTW, my left eye is just as bad as my right one now, so I'm back to shooting "righty".

Resp'y,
Bob S.

 

[andiarisaka]

I wonder if anyone would care if I used one of the Kerr NoBuckl slings on my K31. It's so much more pliable and easier to adjust than the leather 1907 sling. Easier on my chin when shooting with a scope too. To me they look very much at home on a Krag rifle, probably because all the Krags at my hometown American Legion had Kerrs on them. Of course, both rifles and slings are all long gone now.

 

[TFoley]

Apologies to all who may have been offended in some way by my post. Of course, in the USA and or Canada you can do exactly as you wish when shooting Swiss military arms. For all the Swiss care, you could weld the action to a piece of track to stop it moving or have the stock nailed to a railroad tie.

However, In Switzerland, you are required to shoot your K31 or whatever in accordance with the shooting rules for the various disciplines. And, as far as I know, there are no competitions where an otherwise ordinary K31 is shot with a telesopic sight on it.

Remember that the original question asked how the Swiss did it.

tac
www.swissrifles.com

 

[BobS]

Here in the US we can't "do as we please" when shooting Swiss arms in competition: we have to conform to the rules of the match, CMP, NRA or "other". What I had illustrated conforms to the CMP rules; I don't shoot in "Swiss" competition. I see now that the author was indeed asking about Swiss competition, so I apologize for not answering the question. Moderators can delete the post as "off topic" if desired.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

 

[TFoley]

Bob - I should have said 'thank you' for posting your piccies. Sorry about that omission.

Over here in Yoorup we only shoot our Swiss stuff the way the Swiss do, and of course, when shooting in Swizerland we all HAVE to do the same thing, so it was interesting to see what you are allowed to do in the USA/Canada, as you say, within the rules that YOU adhere to.

No doubt this explains the extremely high scores that you, as shooters, seem to achieve with such ease, compared with us old farts, shooting our open-sighted bundooks off a wobbly old backpack full of salami sammidges and crunchy roesti.....

Luckily, I AM able to shoot my 300m K31-actioned match rifle with a good single-point sling, but I don't get the same buzz as making an inner with my K96/11 at 300m.

Different horses, etc........

Best

tac

 

[BobS]

Slightly off topic again

Tac;

I too am an FOF (Faithful Old Fart), and I have a very healthy respect for Commonwealth marksmen, having been soundly trounced in Palma competition by GB, Australia, and Canada on many occasions. The worst debacle was '92 when I think we came in 4th or 5th ... on our "home range". Not good!

In the late 60's and early 70's we used to fire a "mini-Palma" match at Reading Massachusetts. It was called "mini" Palma because it was a smaller pond ... Canadian Maritimes vs New England States; and fired only at 600 yards which was all that was available at Reading. Most Canadians brought their DCRA No. 4's, with an occasional P-H T4 ... shooting against mostly Winchester Model 70 Targets; and they usually did a masterful job of cleaning our clock. I do recall that in that type of competition, I never saw any of the Canadians use the king screw sling swivel ... I had to ask what it was 'cuz I had never seen one before that.

The closest "Swiss" program to me is in Thurmont, Maryland; that's a long way to drive to shoot a very few rounds downrange, so I never got involved. From what I have seen on these boards and read, the course of fire is a very practical one, without all the doo-dads and gee-gaws that high-power and fullbore shooters use.

Best regards ...

Resp'y,
Bob S.

 

[gil]

Great information gents!

I have one of Pierres' diopter sets and will try to imitate BobS's sling use shooting with that system right handed. I have a couple of spare garand slings and it was particularly useful to see photos of their propeer use.
thanks
gil

 

[NuJudge]

I like the Bob S. method with web sling

I put the spring steel hook on the wrong end of the US GI web sling, and hook that on the barrel band loop on the side of the rifle. It works well every time.

People talk about replacing the K31 barrel band (loop on left side of the rifle) with a barrel band from a 1911 rifle or carbine (loop on bottom of the rifle). I do not feel handicapped with it on the left side of the rifle. The results from Camp Perry this year:
http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/report_eventAward.cgi?matchID=3426&eventID=14&awardID=1

Of at least as much importance in getting the K31 to shoot well, have the front action screw as tight as you can get it, the screws on the barrel bands loose enough that the bands rattle a small amount, and experiment with the tightness of the rear band until you find where the rifle shoots well. See here:
http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/pierre/accurizing.html

From what Guisan tells us, the Swiss shoot/shot K31 rifles with everything tight. That did NOT work for me. Also, re the Swiss sling, I'd rather use NO sling than that thing.

Finally, if you are age 40+, you need Optometric intervention to see the front sight. I have glasses with the right lens focusing on the front sight (optical center high up on the lens), and left lens focusing on infinity (where the target is).

Christopher Dingell

 

[TFoley]

Also, re the Swiss sling, I'd rather use NO sling than that thing.
Christopher Dingell

The `Swiss sling` is used to stop the weapon hitting the ground when you carry it on your bicycle - nothing more.

Five years ago I had the history of straight-pulls on my shoulders - left shoulder, Model 88 and G11 - right shoulder K11 and K31. I was carrying in my left hand and StG57 and in my right hand a Stgw90. I was also wearing what had once been my own P210-6.

tac

 

[ak_milsurp]

Yep Gil!

That's Right GIL!

You need to install those diopters sights on your rifle. I'm especially fond of K31's with Mojo Micro-click sights on em... Much easier to use than the standard Tangent type.

To the Pic of the sling use posted. EXCELLENT!

I generally fire using the "Hasty" sling...... For me it works well and is much simpler.

Especially since I generally take 8-10 Milsurps with me on a range session.....

Hey Gil... Have FUN at the SAR show my friend!

I'm sure you're enjoying the warm brezzes in Phoenix while I'm in snow here in Alaska!

 

[clamdigger]

BobS, I have seen your pictures before on another forum and used them in my first CMP vintage rifle match at Camp Perry this summer. I used the traditional half twist and got a lot of cant while shooting the rifle. In this forum thread, it seems like you did not do the half twist. Does that help to prevent the cant? Also, I was using a 1907 leather sling and attaching the rear was a pain since I had to unscrew the bar to feed the sling through. I don't like shooting the sitting and prone events with the sling attached to the rear. Before the match, I was considering using a web sling and after breaking the detachable clip, I went with the leather sling. Is it possible to use the traditional K-31 sling clip on a US web or leather sling? Or is there a difference in widths?

The funny thing about all of this is I ended up shooting 270 at Camp Perry. This with a rifle I had never fired or even practiced with before. My son took the rifle to a 100 yard range the week before the match and got the sights lined up. Good thing the CMP allows 80 seconds on the rapid event because that is a big help. One bad thing about not practicing before the match was not understanding the trigger on this rifle and how long the first stage pull is.

Did the 1911 rifles attach the sling at the bottom rather than on the left side? Do those 1911 bands fit on a K-31? If so, I wonder why they were switched? Seems like a lot of European rifles have sling attachments on the left side. Must be for carrying, not for shooting.

 

[BobS]

Clamdigger,

If you go back and read the entire article on the original SRF (that's where these pictures came from), I warned several times in the text do not put a half turn in the sling because of the cant that it will induce.

The K31 quick detachable clip will fit on the M1 web sling, and that's what I use.

You detach that end of the sling from the stock when using the loop sling in sitting and prone.

The K31 quick detachable sling clip will not fit on the M1907 sling because the metal frog of the US sling will not pass through the narrow loop of the Swiss part. However, you can modify the quick detachable clip from an M1 web sling to fit the sling bar in the K31 stock. That clip will slip on the M1907 sling, and then the tail of the sling can be detached in the same way that the M1 web sling is detached.

Top: The "stock" M1 sling clip. Bottom: M1 sling clip modifed by bending and narrowing to fit the K31 sling bar. These "pictures" were taken in my pre-digital camera days: the modeling clay holds the parts on the glass of an ancient flat bed scanner, which took the "picture". These sling clips are available as a separate part from Numrich and others for a few bucks, so you don't have to cannibalize a complete M1 sling to get one to modify for this use.

The modified M1 sling clip used with a M1907 leather sling on a K31:

As I noted above, the Gew 1911 lower band will fit the K31 and positions the sling on the bottom of the stock. The use of this part is contrary to CMP rules for "as-issued" rifles, however. At least one guy got away with it last year at Perry because none of the line officials was smart enough to tell the difference. Unfortunately, I was cursed with a conscience, and I can't do that: even if no one else knows it's wrong, I know. For NRA rules, anything goes, as long as it's not unsafe.

Hope this answers your questions .....

Resp'y,
Bob S.