Is it asking too much to get < 1 MOA ?
Rather than importing an entire second thread, I shall add the contents of this second thread to the same import, as a second posted contribution. That makes it longer, but keeps together what belongs together ;-).
Yours, Carcano
* * *
JT
Gunboards Member
USA
33 Posts
Posted - 08/05/2004 : 9:22:56 PM
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I have been going to the range weekly now for a while, and I'm wondering just what my rifle is capable of shooting. I have a 1941 M38 Husqvarna Swedish Mauser, with a rear micrometer sight and a standard post front sight( I'm still looking for a Elit front sight if you know of one). I have my own reloads of 36g of IMR shooting sierra match king 120g HPBT bullets. I am shooting 100yds, with time in between shots so as not to heat up the barrel too severely. Shooting off of a solid rest. Now I have been shooting since I was probably 7 years old so I know what I'm doing, granted I have always used a rifle with a scope. What I want to know is does somebody out there have a Swedish Mauser that is unscoped that can consistantly shoot less than 1MOA at 100yds. Don't lie can you really do this? If you do, I would like to know what I can do to get my rifle into shape so I can take it down the road a piece and compete with the big boys at the 600 meter shoot they have. Now I know that there is alot of difference in 100yds and 600 meters but if it won't shoot <1MOA at the 100 yd mark then there is no since even thinking about 600 meters! Note I do not want to sporterize my rifle.
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Edited by - JT on 08/05/2004 9:26:56 PM
rdawson
Gunboards Member
USA
29 Posts
Posted - 08/05/2004 : 11:19:17 PM
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I can do sub MOA sometimes, but not consistently. With standard sights my "typical"
groups run 1.5 to 2 inches at 100yards. With Elit 1.0 to 1.5 is typical. My M96 rifles tend to be slightly better than my M38 rifles. As my eyes get tired groups open by 30 to 50%, and age certainly doesn't help.
Sorry if this is deemed off topic.
rd
swedeadmirer
Gunboards Premium Member
160 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 04:42:51 AM
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refer to recent topic nice walnut -
He means this one, note by Carcano:
swedeadmirer
Gunboards Premium Member
160 Posts
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 01:31:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is what it did with 3/3 rounds at 100m
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/swedeadmirer/20048113019_M96 test.jpg
Download Attachment:
55.09 KB
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 05:05:53 AM
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That group was the first 3 rounds while trying to work out a sweet load - I use the same load in other M96's successfully it is 43gr of AR 2209 (Aussie stuff could be obtainable in the US) with a 139gr FMJ projectile which I think is Hirtenburg and Lapua cases - & oh yeah this rifle cost all of Aust $200
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 05:08:11 AM
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I was only testing the gun not myself so I shot off sand bags on a bench with no wind
jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 12:45:38 PM
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JT, To consistently shoot aggregate MOA or less groups with iron sights (even at 100 yards from a rest) with a service issue rifle is a challenge few riflemen can truly meet for the duration of a match.
The shooter must have his skills honed to a high degree and needs to have keen eyes.
I have been reloading for, hunting with, and shooting the Swede Mausers for about 15 years..My M96 shoots consistently tighter groups than my M38, probably by reason of the longer barrel?
I have loaded up many different bullet weights, makes, styles and experimented with several dozen powders X many loads.
For me and my rifles, I find the 139, 140, 143 grain bullets consistently group better than the lighter bullets..possibly due to them being closer to the lands and haveing more bearing surface in the bore..?Sierra is my choice but there are other quality bullets..I have often wanted to try the Berger VLD (VERY LOW DRAG) .264 140 grain bullets for longer distances but never got a round to it..
The 158 & 160 grain bullets (Sierra SMP)are very accurate also, but they have a whole lot more arc in their trajectory which can be a disadvantage for those who hunt at unknown yardages 300 and in..
The Sierra 160 SMP has the ogive of the bullet the farthest forward of all the bullets I've compared..Still won't touch the lands tho..
I have settled on Lapua brass only for best accuracy and consistent quality.My powder of choice for the M96 is REL 22, tho REL 15 does very well in all the Swedes, including the Ljungman.
At close to 60 years of age, my eyes are not as sharp as they once were, tho my vision is good..they just get tired faster..
The loads I have worked up and settled on provide mid range velocity(2575 FPS in the M96 and about 90FPS slower in the M38 & Ljungman) with single digit deviations over the chrono.
Now to your question:
Can I consistently shoot( and in duration like a match) MOA or better with my Swede bolt rifles & iron sights?
NO.
I can shoot sub moa 3 shot groups periodically, but for a complete match? Couldn't do it personally.
Anyhow, check the barrel to stockworks-handguard contact and insure that there are no tight spots.
Play around with inch/pounds of torque from 55-68 on the action screws and see what tuning you can achieve there.
Try the heavier bullets and the best most consistent brass you can find.I fireform mine and then neck size almost exclusively.jim
reddog
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
1050 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 1:10:49 PM
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I've come very close (5 shots <1.25")but never <1". I am shooting a 1904 M96 all matching unmodified rifle with issue sights. I ,like Jim, shoot the heavier bullets both Swedish military surplus and handloads. I neck size the hand loads. I am similar in age to Jim so have some eye stain issues but use a homemade diopter on my shooting glasses to help.
Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
USA
848 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 5:50:22 PM
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The answer is NO.ANYONE who could shoot sub one inch grps. at 100 yards,cosistently,would be Olympic bound.Does'nt happen.DOES NOT HAPPEN.Now,can you occasionally get 3/4 inch groops ?...yes.Can you often get "about" one inch grps ?...sure.But all the time ;no way.Don't beat yourself up over this The real truth is,most guys here,even the good shooters,generally don't do much better than 1.5 -2 inches with iron sights.And that's the good shots.
jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 6:16:41 PM
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As a note, I would add that I have both a scoped M96 and M38 Swede rifle.The rifles are full mil-spec otherwise.(The M96 has a bent bolt, tho I still have the original straight bolt)
Scopes are two piece steel(Warne) with Warne QD mounts.
Bases were applied with G-2 epoxy and have been on over ten years..
For the use of a hunter, it is valuable that the scopes go on or off in six seconds retaining zero very well.Low..barely clear the bolt and iron sights.
Glass is 50 year old Lyman and Weaver fixed 4x..single steel tube, brass internals..1/4 moa adjustments.Basic optics back when even basic optics were decent..
With reloads and from a bench or position shooting,(sitting is my favorite as hunter) I can consistently shoot sub moa groups of three slow fire to 300 tards.I could not do that for the duration of any match..nor is that the purpose for my shooting-reloading..
Anyhow, many of the service grade M96 &M38 Swede rifles are quite capable of moa accuracy with good ammo..The weak ling-challenge for such consistent shooting will always be the rifleman..jim
Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
USA
848 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 8:25:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jim in Oregon
As a note, I would add that I have both a scoped M96 and M38 Swede rifle.The rifles are full mil-spec otherwise.(The M96 has a bent bolt, tho I still have the original straight bolt)
Scopes are two piece steel(Warne) with Warne QD mounts.
Bases were applied with G-2 epoxy and have been on over ten years..
For the use of a hunter, it is valuable that the scopes go on or off in six seconds retaining zero very well.Low..barely clear the bolt and iron sights.
Glass is 50 year old Lyman and Weaver fixed 4x..single steel tube, brass internals..1/4 moa adjustments.Basic optics back when even basic optics were decent..
With reloads and from a bench or position shooting,(sitting is my favorite as hunter) I can consistently shoot sub moa groups of three slow fire to 300 tards.I could not do that for the duration of any match..nor is that the purpose for my shooting-reloading..
Anyhow, many of the service grade M96 &M38 Swede rifles are quite capable of moa accuracy with good ammo..The weak ling-challenge for such consistent shooting will always be the rifleman..jim
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will state the following...with iron sights,out of an ANY unmodified WW1 or WW2 military rifle,it is next to impossible to CONSISTENTLY shoot one inch groups,much less sub one inch.Even with modern rifles,and iron sights,it takes an exceptional shot to post one inch groups consistently.By consistently I mean about 90-95 % of the time.I'll go one step further and say it takes a really good shot(not great,but pretty damn good) to consistently post one moa with a modern scoped rifle.I shot competitively for many years,both civilian and military.I've seen,and shot against,some of the finest marksmen in this nation.My view is based on that experience.I do not believe anyone should expect to consistently get moa out of WW1/WW2 battle rifles.I do agree that Swede 96's and M38's ARE capable of one inch grps.,or close to one inch grps ,most of the time,in the hands of a very good shot.SO...my answer to the original poster is YES,it is asking too much to get 1 MOA on any kind of consistent basis out of these rifles.
jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 9:12:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul, I think we agree..
Note how I qualified & quantified my latest post..jim
Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
USA
848 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 10:40:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rather than importing an entire second thread, I shall add the contents of this second thread to the same import, as a second posted contribution. That makes it longer, but keeps together what belongs together ;-).
Yours, Carcano
* * *
JT
Gunboards Member
USA
33 Posts
Posted - 08/05/2004 : 9:22:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been going to the range weekly now for a while, and I'm wondering just what my rifle is capable of shooting. I have a 1941 M38 Husqvarna Swedish Mauser, with a rear micrometer sight and a standard post front sight( I'm still looking for a Elit front sight if you know of one). I have my own reloads of 36g of IMR shooting sierra match king 120g HPBT bullets. I am shooting 100yds, with time in between shots so as not to heat up the barrel too severely. Shooting off of a solid rest. Now I have been shooting since I was probably 7 years old so I know what I'm doing, granted I have always used a rifle with a scope. What I want to know is does somebody out there have a Swedish Mauser that is unscoped that can consistantly shoot less than 1MOA at 100yds. Don't lie can you really do this? If you do, I would like to know what I can do to get my rifle into shape so I can take it down the road a piece and compete with the big boys at the 600 meter shoot they have. Now I know that there is alot of difference in 100yds and 600 meters but if it won't shoot <1MOA at the 100 yd mark then there is no since even thinking about 600 meters! Note I do not want to sporterize my rifle.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - JT on 08/05/2004 9:26:56 PM
rdawson
Gunboards Member
USA
29 Posts
Posted - 08/05/2004 : 11:19:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can do sub MOA sometimes, but not consistently. With standard sights my "typical"
groups run 1.5 to 2 inches at 100yards. With Elit 1.0 to 1.5 is typical. My M96 rifles tend to be slightly better than my M38 rifles. As my eyes get tired groups open by 30 to 50%, and age certainly doesn't help.
Sorry if this is deemed off topic.
rd
swedeadmirer
Gunboards Premium Member
160 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 04:42:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
refer to recent topic nice walnut -
He means this one, note by Carcano:
swedeadmirer
Gunboards Premium Member
160 Posts
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 01:31:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is what it did with 3/3 rounds at 100m
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/swedeadmirer/20048113019_M96 test.jpg
Download Attachment:
55.09 KB
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 05:05:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That group was the first 3 rounds while trying to work out a sweet load - I use the same load in other M96's successfully it is 43gr of AR 2209 (Aussie stuff could be obtainable in the US) with a 139gr FMJ projectile which I think is Hirtenburg and Lapua cases - & oh yeah this rifle cost all of Aust $200
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 05:08:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was only testing the gun not myself so I shot off sand bags on a bench with no wind
jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 12:45:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JT, To consistently shoot aggregate MOA or less groups with iron sights (even at 100 yards from a rest) with a service issue rifle is a challenge few riflemen can truly meet for the duration of a match.
The shooter must have his skills honed to a high degree and needs to have keen eyes.
I have been reloading for, hunting with, and shooting the Swede Mausers for about 15 years..My M96 shoots consistently tighter groups than my M38, probably by reason of the longer barrel?
I have loaded up many different bullet weights, makes, styles and experimented with several dozen powders X many loads.
For me and my rifles, I find the 139, 140, 143 grain bullets consistently group better than the lighter bullets..possibly due to them being closer to the lands and haveing more bearing surface in the bore..?Sierra is my choice but there are other quality bullets..I have often wanted to try the Berger VLD (VERY LOW DRAG) .264 140 grain bullets for longer distances but never got a round to it..
The 158 & 160 grain bullets (Sierra SMP)are very accurate also, but they have a whole lot more arc in their trajectory which can be a disadvantage for those who hunt at unknown yardages 300 and in..
The Sierra 160 SMP has the ogive of the bullet the farthest forward of all the bullets I've compared..Still won't touch the lands tho..
I have settled on Lapua brass only for best accuracy and consistent quality.My powder of choice for the M96 is REL 22, tho REL 15 does very well in all the Swedes, including the Ljungman.
At close to 60 years of age, my eyes are not as sharp as they once were, tho my vision is good..they just get tired faster..
The loads I have worked up and settled on provide mid range velocity(2575 FPS in the M96 and about 90FPS slower in the M38 & Ljungman) with single digit deviations over the chrono.
Now to your question:
Can I consistently shoot( and in duration like a match) MOA or better with my Swede bolt rifles & iron sights?
NO.
I can shoot sub moa 3 shot groups periodically, but for a complete match? Couldn't do it personally.
Anyhow, check the barrel to stockworks-handguard contact and insure that there are no tight spots.
Play around with inch/pounds of torque from 55-68 on the action screws and see what tuning you can achieve there.
Try the heavier bullets and the best most consistent brass you can find.I fireform mine and then neck size almost exclusively.jim
reddog
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
1050 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 1:10:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've come very close (5 shots <1.25")but never <1". I am shooting a 1904 M96 all matching unmodified rifle with issue sights. I ,like Jim, shoot the heavier bullets both Swedish military surplus and handloads. I neck size the hand loads. I am similar in age to Jim so have some eye stain issues but use a homemade diopter on my shooting glasses to help.
Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
USA
848 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 5:50:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The answer is NO.ANYONE who could shoot sub one inch grps. at 100 yards,cosistently,would be Olympic bound.Does'nt happen.DOES NOT HAPPEN.Now,can you occasionally get 3/4 inch groops ?...yes.Can you often get "about" one inch grps ?...sure.But all the time ;no way.Don't beat yourself up over this The real truth is,most guys here,even the good shooters,generally don't do much better than 1.5 -2 inches with iron sights.And that's the good shots.
jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 6:16:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a note, I would add that I have both a scoped M96 and M38 Swede rifle.The rifles are full mil-spec otherwise.(The M96 has a bent bolt, tho I still have the original straight bolt)
Scopes are two piece steel(Warne) with Warne QD mounts.
Bases were applied with G-2 epoxy and have been on over ten years..
For the use of a hunter, it is valuable that the scopes go on or off in six seconds retaining zero very well.Low..barely clear the bolt and iron sights.
Glass is 50 year old Lyman and Weaver fixed 4x..single steel tube, brass internals..1/4 moa adjustments.Basic optics back when even basic optics were decent..
With reloads and from a bench or position shooting,(sitting is my favorite as hunter) I can consistently shoot sub moa groups of three slow fire to 300 tards.I could not do that for the duration of any match..nor is that the purpose for my shooting-reloading..
Anyhow, many of the service grade M96 &M38 Swede rifles are quite capable of moa accuracy with good ammo..The weak ling-challenge for such consistent shooting will always be the rifleman..jim
Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
USA
848 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 8:25:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jim in Oregon
As a note, I would add that I have both a scoped M96 and M38 Swede rifle.The rifles are full mil-spec otherwise.(The M96 has a bent bolt, tho I still have the original straight bolt)
Scopes are two piece steel(Warne) with Warne QD mounts.
Bases were applied with G-2 epoxy and have been on over ten years..
For the use of a hunter, it is valuable that the scopes go on or off in six seconds retaining zero very well.Low..barely clear the bolt and iron sights.
Glass is 50 year old Lyman and Weaver fixed 4x..single steel tube, brass internals..1/4 moa adjustments.Basic optics back when even basic optics were decent..
With reloads and from a bench or position shooting,(sitting is my favorite as hunter) I can consistently shoot sub moa groups of three slow fire to 300 tards.I could not do that for the duration of any match..nor is that the purpose for my shooting-reloading..
Anyhow, many of the service grade M96 &M38 Swede rifles are quite capable of moa accuracy with good ammo..The weak ling-challenge for such consistent shooting will always be the rifleman..jim
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will state the following...with iron sights,out of an ANY unmodified WW1 or WW2 military rifle,it is next to impossible to CONSISTENTLY shoot one inch groups,much less sub one inch.Even with modern rifles,and iron sights,it takes an exceptional shot to post one inch groups consistently.By consistently I mean about 90-95 % of the time.I'll go one step further and say it takes a really good shot(not great,but pretty damn good) to consistently post one moa with a modern scoped rifle.I shot competitively for many years,both civilian and military.I've seen,and shot against,some of the finest marksmen in this nation.My view is based on that experience.I do not believe anyone should expect to consistently get moa out of WW1/WW2 battle rifles.I do agree that Swede 96's and M38's ARE capable of one inch grps.,or close to one inch grps ,most of the time,in the hands of a very good shot.SO...my answer to the original poster is YES,it is asking too much to get 1 MOA on any kind of consistent basis out of these rifles.
jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 9:12:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul, I think we agree..
Note how I qualified & quantified my latest post..jim
Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
USA
848 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2004 : 10:40:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------