SHOOTING: Swedish Mauser Accuracy Expectations

Imported from Second Board

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Robinpeck
Gunboards Premium Member
Canada
185 Posts
Posted - 11/06/2003 : 5:30:52 PM
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What should I expect for accuracy in a Swedish Mauser?...mine is a Husqvarna 1941 with a perfect bore...best barrel I have seen after looking down the barrels of 50 or more over the last two decades....My Carl Gustaf Model 1900 sporting rifle (circa 1970) in 6.5x55 will shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards with 140 grain Winchester factory ammo. With same ammunition the old Swede can only do about 1 1/2 in....a bit better with long 160 grain bullets in a handload. Am I being too hard on the Mauser? What sort of accuracy do others get?

Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
USA
848 Posts
Posted - 11/06/2003 : 8:28:37 PM
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I only have one Swede Mauser,and that's an 1899 Oberndorf.With the 140 grain Win. ammo you mentioned,it will post 1 1/8 groups.I figure with handloads,it might turn-in 7/8 - 1 inch grps at 100 yards ? That's just a guess;I could be wrong.In my opinion,any open sight WW2 milsurp that consistently shoots inside two inches is a hell of a good shooter.The truth is,most guys don't really have tha ability to CONSISTENTLY shoot one inch groups anyway.I'm not saying your one that can't,I'm just commenting on the other,"human component" involved with accuracy.I therefore believe the 1 1/2 inch grps you are getting represents two things: a very very fine rifle,and a very fine shot.Good luck.


Nordicthug
Gunboards Super Premium Member
USA
253 Posts
Posted - 11/06/2003 : 9:55:26 PM
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I think it all depends on which board you're reading and who's posting at the time.

Most Swedish Mausers I've read about seem to be capable of 3/8" to 7/8" fifteen shot groups at 450 meters offhand with 1907 dated surplus ammo. These groups were most likely shot by the same people who made 600 yard one shot kills on white tail deer last season.

I do most of my range shooting at 50 yards, I have bad knees and I don't like to hike much anymore. I shoot at an 8" bull and with most of my milsurps with surplus ammo if I get 5"-6" groups at that range I'm happy as a pig in s**t. Even happier if the group accidentally gets in the black.

Funny thing about those many hundred yard shots. A student at Washington State Univ. did a study some years back in which he asked 250 successful hunters to estimate the distance they made their killing shots. Then he took about 75 who agreed to go and measure the actual distances. The average estimated distance was 225 yards. The actual measured average was 35 yards. Bad distance estimates, or just being hopeful? Perhaps some of each. I was curious about the range I shot my last deer. My buddy and I measured from the ejected cartridge case to the gut pile. Center to center: 26 feet. I would have sworn in court that it was at least 40 yards.

I have a hunch that a lot of the 1" 100 yard open sight groups are just being as hopeful as I was.

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ATF should be a store, not a Gov't. agency.


kriggevaer
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
1709 Posts
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 01:48:04 AM
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Robinpeck, Mr. Parrish and Nordicthug both make some good points. Myself, I wouldn't be disappointed with an 1 1/2" group. My M38 Husky can shoot under 1 1/2 (not much under), but a couple of my M96s will shoot close to an inch off a rock solid rest and carefully made handloads with match bullets. I generally fire five shot groups and if a particular rifle does well at that, I'll really try to push it with ten shot groups. As Nordicthug noted, there probably is a lot of bravo sierra about tight groups, but they do occur with certain types of mil-surp rifles. I have sometimes fired the first three rounds out of a cold barrel and cloverleafed them under an inch. Two more shots and the group is now out to 2". And if you shoot a lot of three shot groups on separate clean targets, sooner or later, with a good rifle to begin with, one is likely to get that magic 1" group. Good shooting -

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kriggevær

"Roland was a warrior from the Land of the Midnight Sun..."



Vulch
Moderator English Gun Pub
Australia
6297 Posts
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 07:59:08 AM
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I can't hit S&^T or SHINOLA with my M96's, and I am flabbergasted as to why!

I can make my 1942 Husqvarna M38 group into 2 inches with PPU factory ammo, or into 6 inches with Norma overpriced stuff I will NEVER buy again.

I love Swede's, but for the life of me I can not get my M96's to group any better than a 2 inch horizontal x 6 inch vertical group at 100 yards. My M38 tagets are actually VERY tidy. I think a LOT of it is me, but shooting OTHER long Mausers, like Gew98's, I don't have this problem at all.

I'll just keep plugging with my two Husqvarna M38's, and put the M96's into the Beautioful, yet scraggy shooter collection!

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Pettson
Swedish Civilian Firearms Board Moderator
Sweden
557 Posts
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 11:36:31 AM
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Having that much vertical spread in relation to the horisontal makes me suspect that there's something wrong either with you or with the rifle...

Probably not you, as you do well with the other rifles.
Unsymmetrical groups like that, with either extreme horisontal or vertical spred is usually a sign that says something ain't right with the rifle.
You're the only one I've ever heard claiming that Norma makes lousy ammo. Wonder if all those world champions would agree?

Seriously, not all ammo meets up with the peculiar requirements of individual rifles, not even the most expensive ones.

Pettson

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jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 4:44:01 PM
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There's probably one in about every 5000 iron sight rifle shooters who can shoot 1" aggregate 5 shot groups at 100 yards with any ammo, rifle or rest setup..

Those fellows are the ones with good eyes, the proper training and discipline, some natural talent and decent rifles and consistent ammo.

A 2" aggregate iron sight group at 100 yards is good shooting for the majority of rifles and riflemen.

To truly wring the best accuracy from the Swede Mausers one needs to handload and scope the rifle with good optics.
Then, a couple hundred thousand rounds of 22 bench rest practice later.. he may be able to shoot sub MOA aggregate groups.
I have seldom seen a Swede rifle which was not capable of better accuracy than the shooter who was behind it.

Vertical stringing is generally due to very inconsistent velocities at 100 yards, poor sight alignment and inconsistent hold on the mark, flinching, pushing, or other shooter's deficits.

Horizontal string may be the trigger squeeze, breath control, ignorance of NPA,high or low light from one side or the other,damaged crown and on and on.

Generally if the rifle has a defect, or is in need of sight adjustment,one can still hit consistently, tho not on the intended spot.

Certain rifles, triggers, drop and pull length on stockworks,distance between front-rear sights etc seem to 'fit' a particular shooter better than others.

IF I were to start coaching anyone who wanted to improve his iron sight shooting I would start with teaching the shooter to develop a consistent placement of his cheek on the rifle stock.Every shot.

Even on the bench, front and rear bags,with a bolt action, many shooters subtly change each shot position as it concerns their cheek on the stock.
From there, we'd go to breathing, aiming, sight alignment for consistency, trigger work etc. jim






bwana
Gunboards Member
USA
46 Posts
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 5:32:49 PM
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All of the Swede rifles that I have shoot about 1 3/8" to 1 7/8" 3 shot groups with iron sights. A Swede rifle that I have, that is sporterized and scoped, shoots under an 1" every time. I use handloads exclusively due to cost. I suspect that they could do better if I was a better shot, (I am USMC Expert 12th award but that just means I am consistent, not fantasitc), but I consider this pretty good shooting as is. On my 8mm & 30-06 Mausers, K98s, VZ-24s, etc, I don't expect less than 2" groups, and I am happy with them if they can do that. As has been stated, these rifles will shoot better than most men can hold, so 1 1/2" of angle with iron sights sounds about right, and pretty damn good to me! Be happy, most men can't do that with a better rifle.


Pettson
Swedish Civilian Firearms Board Moderator
Sweden
557 Posts
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 6:14:07 PM
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Agree with everything that Jim said, and adding the following;
In the case of the Swedes at least, extreme vertical stringing might well be due to something, either wood or metal, pushing against the barrel as it warms up, OR an improperly seated reciever, causing the same effect.

Pettson

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Vulch
Moderator English Gun Pub
Australia
6297 Posts
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 6:39:15 PM
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Granted, but on 3 (THREE) M96's I own????????

Must be me.

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jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 6:54:18 PM
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Vulch,Many if not most of those who get an M96 remove the wood from the barrel action to clean 'er up.
This is good.
Not much is taught or known about what happens to the rifle when one does this.The soldier in the field certainly didn't do it..usually one trained as armorer.
Well, shucks, you say: just a couple of screws and some barrel bands..
True enough.
Almost anyone can disassemble an internal combustion engine and <maybe> reassemble it..but will it be right?

What did you torque the action screws to when the rifle was reassembled?

Did you snug them up to 55 inch pounds or so and then seat the barrel-receiver into the stock recoil lug by gently dropping it butt-first to a padded floor several times?
Then did you torque the screws to 60-63 inch pounds, forward screw last?One can actually fine tune barrel harmonics by the action screws..or screw them up ..

Many will say that IF the action screws are properly torqued, it can still take up to 20 shots to settle the rifle in..
Be patient with the M96..Unless your 3 are real anomalies, I'd bet they can be made to outshoot any rifle you own.

Pettson: Concerning the Norma factory ammo..Vulcan & Alaskan anyhow:

I have found they are not as consistent over the chrono in SD as what I reload, but they are fine bullets for hunting and are plenty accurate for the offhand shooter in the field to 250 yards hunting..jim




jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 11/07/2003 : 7:07:13 PM
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Vulch,I'd also add this:
Under circumstances where the M96 rifle is 'as is' from the Swede armourer:
it was designed and set up to accurately shoot the Swedish milsurp M41 ball ammo.

You throw someone else's ammo into the chamber and all bets may be off concerning accuracy in the fast twist 29" barrel.

How a rifle prints on paper is related to some degree on ammo..not just it's MV, but powder burn rate, primer,bullet BC & ogive location etc.
That is one of the reasons many who appreciate the innate potential of the rifle and caliber end up reloading..
That's also one of the reasons why fine rifles end up for sale by owners who just couldn't get them to shoot well..and are bought, shot and cherished by another who persevered..
Stick with and work with your M96 rifles..They ARE different rifles than the M38 in many respects..jim



bucktales
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
USA
608 Posts
Posted - 11/08/2003 : 6:06:42 PM
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I HAVE A M38 THAT WAS OFF WHEN I BOUGHT IT.AFTER REMOVING THE RECEIVER FROM THE WOOD,I GAVE IT THE PRUSSIAN BLUE TREATMENT.SHE WAS HURTIN NEAR THE END OF THE STOCK,AND THAT WAS WITH A COLD BARREL.A COUPLE OF LIGHT PASSES WITH THE SCRAPER AND A COATING OF "RIG" IN THE BARREL CHANNEL,SHE WAS GOOD TO GO.

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bucktales


maz43
Gunboards Super Premium Member
USA
476 Posts
Posted - 11/11/2003 : 3:58:41 PM
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With my scoped M38 and handloads from the sandbags best 3 shot group @100 yd .187 inch. Best 5 shot group .5 inch. Most loads average just under one inch.
One of the most accurate mausers IMHO.



jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 09:39:47 AM
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maz43, I have both an M96 CG and an M38 Husqvarna..

Both are scoped with vintage solid steel tube fixed 4X scopes, Lyman & Weaver respectively.1/4 MOA click adjustment, picket-post crosshairs.

The mounts are Warne steel with quick-detach levers.On or off in 6 seconds for use of iron sights while retaining zero when scope is re-attached..
The scopes are mounted lower than the M41 sniper rifle with the Ajack or Swede scope, but the original safety can still be used.

I think I have about $275.00 in each rifle including used optics and mounts and new slings..

Other than the bases, which I put on both rifles with high grade epoxy,( they have been solidly installed for over ten years now)and the bent bolt for the M96, both rifles are mil-stock.

Either rifle could be returned to original condition, aside from a slight relief cut in the walnut stock of the M96 to accomodate the bent bolt.

I did get two decent mil-style slings from Brownells so I could use the sling for more than a carry strap.

With Lapua brass, neck sizing, and attention to reloading work up and practice, I also have shot many a sub MOA 3 shot group out to 200 yards from the bench.I seldom shoot farther than that with the 6,5x55 as I am a deer, elk, bear, lion hunter.

I don't think any of the $1000.00+ M41B Swede Sniper rifles would do much better.

Offhand, with sling, prone kneeling or standing, my shooting at 200 yards opens up to a bit under 2MOA consistently.
I am a hunter, reloader, and shooter, (collector by default.)

The Swede Mausers are IMHO the best milsurp Mauser rifles ever made, for accuracy, caliber, fit and finish, and meterials used.jim



gil
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
1107 Posts
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 10:28:09 AM
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Jim
What kind of epoxy did you use to mount the side mount scopes?
Gil


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the other one


jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 2:00:47 PM
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gil, The scope bases are the conventional dovetail type which went on in front of on the rear of the receiver..just where one would d&t and install them normally.

The Warne lever type QD mounts have the small levers on the ring bases, which are Weaver type only better-stronger more precision.

The epoxy I use is made by a Canadian company, Industrial Formulators of Canada LTD. It's called G-2.(604)-294-6315.

They make quite a variety of industrial epoxies.This particular type is a non critical 2:1 mix which is variable for different applications where one needs more or less flexural or tensile strength.Hot water & soap wash up before curing which is nice.
Very strong bond impervious to higher heat, extreme cold, acids, oil etc.jim



Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member
USA
848 Posts
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 6:20:59 PM
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Jim in Oregon....are you saying you can offhand 4 inch grps at 200 yards???


jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 7:05:34 PM
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Paul, Yes.With the scoped Swedes and handloads and a loop up with a proper sling I can shoot that well pretty consistently.

Been shooting for over 50 ears, military rifle company and police with a few years of Hi Power and Silhouettes thrown in for good measure.
I also routinely shoot the cheap orange painted clay pigeons at 200 yards on the berm at our shooting area...and while that's not a 'group', when one hits seven or eight of ten in timed fire, I consider that a group..
I can shoot paper too, but it bores me unless I'm working up loads.
I had lasik surgery in my master eye about 5 years back..20/10 vision helps alot and I have also had some good coaches and mentors..jim


jim in Oregon
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
2301 Posts
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 7:29:08 PM
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Paul, I'd add that my first passion in weapons since my 'senior trip' back in the late 60's early 70's has been archery.I have built my own bows and arrows, shot and hunted with 'stickbows' for over 40 years.Never lost touch with firearms tho...RKBA and all that..Ya never know.

I've had some great coaches in archery also and they taught the same disciplines as the best of rifle coaches do....
My favorite went on at age 75 to be an Olympic Archery team coach.
Al Henderson if that name means anything on these forums.
With the bow,I and can hit a 1# coffee can( or the kill zone on a properly positioned bull elk)consistently with my 70-75# longbows or recurves and wood arrows out to 50 yards on any day, tho I usually kill them closer than that.
Most of it comes down to the mind and spirit after the disciplines are ingrained and the equipment is right.

I don't think I have any extraordinairy talent or natural abilities.
Perfect practice makes perfect.
The rifle and the ammo play their important parts, but the shooter and his training and dedication separate the shooters from the riflemen.Learn and persevere with proper tools and proper practice and you will achieve a higher level of competency than you have dreamed of.jim


RonT
Gunboards Premium Member
164 Posts
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 9:38:36 PM
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I've been a shooting (and hunting and fishing) buddy of Pauls for quite a few years. We shoot MilSurps with iron sights at the distances he refered to, with the accuracy he noted. I imagine with scoped weapons he/we could do much better. We both have had excellent training in the 60's,Paul was on an Ohio ANG rifle team, I was a Marine grunt.
I believe that the jist of the original post was what to expect from these open sighted weapons. I must have mis read,are the 200/400 yd. shots open sight or scoped?
Jim, I too am involved in Trad Archery and have followed your exploits on that certain website.
Waiting to hear more about your military career.
RonT


kriggevaer
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
USA
1709 Posts
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 12:51:36 AM
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Yup, Jim is not blowing smoke about small groups at 200 yds offhand. I have witnessed High Masters High Power shooters and former members of the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit shoot such groups on a consistent basis. I have been out of competitive shooting for quite some time, but I can imagine that with the improvements in match gun and ammunition technology in the past few years, a lot of shooters are probably well under the 4 inch group.


RonT
Gunboards Premium Member
164 Posts
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 12:21:27 PM
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Not doubting, just clarifying. Paul and I shoot irregularly at a 100 yd. range. Add to that we mostly shoot MilSurp ammo, and heckeling is encouraged. I can shoot circles around his groups, no, I mean that, he's shooting 2" groups and I'm shooting 3-4" groups:^). Jim alluded to his military (and police) background. I got out in 69'and that ended formal, structured shooting. In the mid 60's I shot a possible offhand at 200 yds., don't recall the size of the group, but it sure as heck wasn't 2", no way could I do that now. Big differance if you continue on a regular basis. Could I take the time? Sure, but at the cost of other fun things that I won't give up.
More power (smaller groups) to ya' if you can.
RonT

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END NOTE of:
Carcano
10th September 2007

Excellent contributions. I feel a bit comforted and resassured after reading this thread. My special thanks to Jim in Oregon!

Carcano