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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
mauserdoc
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 4:00:19 PM
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Will a hellquist sight go in the same reciever holes as a sodern?

which sights had front hoods associated with them. Which sights had diopters (front sight inserts) associated with them?

were there rear peeps that didn't have a front globe associated with them?

Will any commercially available inserts fit into hoods from sweden (lyman etc)?

can any swedish friends let me know which sights tended to be better for longer or shorter ranges--that is if there was a consensus that some sights were better than others for long or short range use?

Mauserdoc


swede
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 5:10:53 PM
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The Soderin & Helqvist have the same hole pattern & do not match any others , although you may be able to force the base with an incorrect hole pattern . In that case , your sight may not be level with receiver or cocked off center line of the receiver .

The Elit front sight ( insert w/wide tab at 6:00 o'clock ) was used with the Elit & GF rear diopter sights & many others as well .

The Faldat diopter had its own front sight with an insert .

The Hauges diopter had a hood that clamped over the barrel & used its own replacement post or peep blades ( fits in the original dovetail ) .

The Pramm had a hood that clamped around the barrel , while using the original post blade . It also had a similar hood with screw in inserts at both ends similar to the Elit front sight hood .

There are several other hooded front sight with inserts & without any name on them that were used by the Swedes .

There are several unnamed hood type covers that clamped onto the front sight base & using the original post blade . The m/Jarno is the only one of this type that I have seen with a name , although not marked . It comes in 3 aperture diameters .

There are several differant size inserts for Swede front sights . The Elit is unique with the wide tab at the bottom . There are a number of differant diameter inserts with tabs in the 9:00 o'clock & 3:00 o'clock position . Brownells sells only one type like this that I have found to be compatable with just one type front sight . They are made by " Shaver " for the Anschultz sights . None of the other inserts sold by Brownells fit any of the other unnamed front sights. There are many differant Swede front sights & I am sure that I have not seen them all. So, what you have may or may not fit some of the other inserts at Brownells.

If you are looking for an answer as to what is correct on Swede target rifles , everything is correct . The Swede shooters mixed & matched any front or rear sight to suite themselves . There were some regulations unknown to me , but not about having to use an Elit front & rear sight together , or a set of Pramm or Hauges sights together .

The only target rifles that would have defined front & rear sights would CG factory target rifles like the fm23 , fm23/36 , m/6 & m/7 .


mauserdoc
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 11:54:25 PM
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swede:
Thanks so much -- that was an excellent answer to all the questions I have had. Much appreciated -- Happy New Year!! Jeff


svett80
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 1:59:34 PM
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This is excellent info. Thanks! Can anyone tell me if any of the Swedish or American Di-opters or peep sights used over the years have a straight-line mounting hole pattern rather than the staggered hole arrangement like the Pramm?


swede
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 3:08:47 PM
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The Faldt diopter uses straight line centers of 16 m/m ( left to right ) . No other Swede sights that I am aware of are straight across . The Busk top mount diopter has a rectangular hole pattern ( 4 holes ) of approximately 18 m/m across by 14 m/m front to back . There is also a Busk side mount diopter , as well as the side mount Lyman , Hauges & Hooka .


arilar
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 3:44:02 PM
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Mauserdoc,
Got this info from an active FSR shooter: On a Sauer, FSR89 and CG80 is Busk mostly used. For a Sauer sometimes diopter from Anschutz or Hämmerli. On a CG63 Elit, Hauge and Söderin is popular. But....when competing in field-shooting (often up to 600 meters) Söderin-diopter is also popular on the Sauer.
Hope this info is of any interest. I dont do FSR shooting myself (yet).
Regards,
ARILAR


mauserdoc
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 11:24:22 PM
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Very interesting. Guess the busk stands out in that it requires 4 holes.

God has been good to me over the past few months and I been making progress toward getting my collection of diopted guns both as guns with sights mounted and D and T guns that I have been able to mount sights on.

Sights I have mounted included sodern, (almost) a helquist, and an elite.

Those mounted include: hooka, pramm, faldt, and andersen

I still have the side mounted jobs--hagues, lyman to go along with a busk and Gf diopter.

I have learned a lot since I started this aspect of collecting-- for example, I had negative feelings on the faldt, but Swede told me these would likely be dispelled on shooting the gun--TAck DRIVER! and very stable and reproducible settings.

I am now looking for the subtle difference in what these sights are capable of. However, given the number of fronts available, it is pretty hard to compare these sights--unless one had all that were the same. Obviously not possible. Studying the characteristics of these will be a several year project for me as I will be wanting to compare side to side at ranges out to several hundred yards. Obviouly a daunting undertaking. What works at 100 yards may not work at 600 and before that happens, I will need glasses and a 600yard range!!.

My general opinion at this time is that the busk is the most high tech game in town; for those of you have haven't tried one, it really rocks--very smooth--very reproducible--super high quality.

Esthetically, the pramm is my favorite today.

I hear the hagues will give the rest a run for their money. Wouldn't know at this time as I have never used one.



swede
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 04:44:47 AM
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You will also find the CG80 with a rail mounted across the receiver , front to back . I have a Busk diopter that slides on the dovetail of this rail & locks into position with a knurled screw. This , along with the 4 hole Busk diopter are the more modern versions . There is an older & smaller Busk sight that mounts with 4 holes , as well as the older side mount Busk .
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Current usage statistics on diopter brands

arilar
Gunboards Premium Member
Sweden
244 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 5:07:00 PM
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Sorry, forgot. For the moment Busk, Elit and Söderin are in this order the most popular sights for field-shooting in Sweden. Just red it at the FSR's Forum (only in Swedish unfortunately).
Regards,
ARILAR


EB
Starting Member
Sweden
5 Posts
Posted - 12/05/2006 : 11:00:38 AM
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I know there are some gunsmiths that are modifying Söderin diopters.
Expensive though.

Otherwise around here its most Busk diopters that are being used and then Elit and after Elit Söderin.
Busk diopters are sold with Sauer 200 str which is the only rifle FSR allow exept Mausers in today's competition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Diopter sights in comparison / preference

seabee
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 10:38:19 AM
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Of all the types of diopter sights, that are on the Swede target rifles, which is considered to be the better of the bunch? I am considering a CG-63 with an Elit sight. Comments any one?
Thanks, Bill


kriggevaer
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 10:45:54 AM
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These are my personal preferences and what works best for me.
1 - Elit or GF
2 - Söderin
3 - Hauges, actually this is probably my favorite, but the stock has to be modified to mount it.
4 - Hooka - it is an oldie but a goodie, just cool


mauserdoc
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 9:59:52 PM
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My Hooka arrived from sweden today--pretty cool indeed. Not sure how it works?

I agree with Krigg on the others--I would add the Pramm as a nice one that I probably prefer to a Söderin. I can't see how you could go wrong with an elite! Have one on a cg80 and is shoots great and looks better--

The thing one must consider on a lot of these is the fine adjustments on them. All those that were mentioned in the first answering post are associated with very fine adjustments (not sure about the Hooka though?). With the fine adjustments, it seems to me that one can make very precise changes and with the design of the sights mentioned, hold those changes. These are all cool sights, but some are much more high tech than others.


foudufoot
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 9:55:35 PM
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The Elit is one of the nicer ones. You can't go wrong with it. Dan
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
SI-GA rear sights, two different variants

Dutchman
Posted - 05/13/2007 : 10:13:09 PM
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Shown are the 2 versions of the SI-GA rear sight. One has a U notch, the other a peep aperture.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Dutchman/2007513221147_sc27.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Dutchman/2007513221236_sc28.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Dutchman/2007513221258_sc29.jpg
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Busk Diopter Sight Photos

Dutchman
Posted - 05/23/2007 : 04:57:22 AM
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Hole pattern on the Busk is rectangular 14mm x 18mm.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Dutchman/200752345238_busk1.jpg
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View facing the shooter. No name is stamped on this sight. The multi-aperature is Parker-Hale. A wheel turns with different aperatures.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Dutchman/200752345332_busk2.jpg
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Base width = 33mm
total width = 46mm
total height = 34mm

Front of sight towards front of rifle
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Dutchman/200752345514_busk3.jpg
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Right side.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Dutchman/200752345626_busk4.jpg
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Left side.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Dutchman/20075234577_busk5.jpg
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JK
Posted - 05/23/2007 : 7:59:38 PM
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Dutchman,
Thanks for the photos.
Mine must be a different model Busk. Almost looks like a tiny camera.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/jk/200752319858_dd.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/jk/2007523192252_dddd.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/jk/2007523195534_ddd.jpg
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Dutchman
Posted - 05/23/2007 : 8:57:04 PM
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There are two different Busks. Yours is the other, thanks for posting the pictures of it. Now we have them covered.



kriggevaer
Posted - 05/23/2007 : 9:37:51 PM
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JK yours is the newer model made by Gunnar Busk. The one Dutchman shows is the earlier Busk designed sight which was made for the Norwegian KV59 and M67, M67F1 target rifles built by Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk. The sights fit the m/96 receiver, but were intended for the Mauser 98 actions used in building the KV59 and M67 rifles. Sometimes the earlier models will have the stylized Kongsberg "K" stamped on the base.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/kriggevaer/200752572432_Gunnar Busk-01a.jpg
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Edited by - kriggevaer on 05/25/2007 07:24:45 AM
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Diopter Sight Mounting Holes - Dimensions

Dutchman
Posted - 05/23/2007 : 04:26:29 AM
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Courtesy of Mr.X:

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Dutchman/200752343950_DiopterDimension1.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Dutchman/20075234408_DiopterDimension2.jpg
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jim in Oregon
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 3:17:05 PM
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Dutchman, Looks like valuable info for folks wanting to put target sights on, or determine what the rifle origanally had fitted so they can hunt for the correct sight.

Maybe put it up as a sticky..??
If you don't by next week some fellow will be asking the questions..:)



Dutchman
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 5:59:37 PM
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It's an infrequently needed item. I don't want to get too many stickies as it clogs up the forum. I try and rotate things around. But I do save pertinent page links in a separate file to bring up easier, as in your adjustable gas block message thread. It is but one click away should someone ask.

Hmmm... I think it might be a really good idea to have a permenent topic thread as a sticky that has this collection of links within the forum. Why didn't you suggest this before? I'll put some time into this..



jim in Oregon
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 6:21:04 PM
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Dutchman, I routinely check your House of Karlina site..one never knows what handy gems of info may appear.. :) What doesn't pique one's interest today, may be of interest tomorrow..that's how this hobby is.. :)

With new folks 'discovering' the Swedish firearms or folks going deeper into obscure issues, such a sticky that you are thinking of could be more readily accessible than trying to find and sort thru archived posts.
I appreciate all the inputs of you and others who frequent this forum. Some are 'timely' for me personally in my 'journeys' and others I note. Ya never know what new interests one will develop down the road.



W.R.Buchanan
Posted - 05/28/2007 : 11:30:50 PM
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I have just completed my drawings of the Elite 101 sight. It may be of note that the mounting holes are in fact NOT eqidistant from the centerline of the sight/receiver. Since we are in America the actual measurements from the "centerline" of the action are,,, .423 to the forward screw on the bolt side, and .452 to the rear screw

The sight base needs to be mounted .08 forward of the rear of the receiver (on the right side) for clearance for the bolt handle to clear the actual diopter when it is cycled.

From the rear of the receiver to the right/front hole should be .412, which includes clearance of .08 and then the left/rear hole is .433 behind the front. Any of these numbers divided by .03937 will yield some MM, be sure to round off metric numbers to 2 places. (.01mm = .00039) These numbers are close but not "exactly" the same as the drawings above.

This is all good but, I would recommend, removing the sight base and clamping it to the receiver so that the top of the base is parallel to the bottom flat on the action and dimple drill/transfer the hole positions, for final drill and tap. (3mm x.5)

Even with a milling machine (which I have) it would be difficult to get the holes right just by using coordinates, due to the variances in the actual shape of the rear receiver rings, and how each individual sight fits that shape. I have seen 3 elit sights and all have been filed to fit the ring. The bases are castings, Just using the coordinates WILL NOT guarantee correct alignment of the sight base with the intended receiver.

Mounting a Lyman #48 type sight to the side of the receiver would just involve finding the centerline of the bore/receiver and drilling and tapping 2ea.6-48 holes in line. (Make sure to check squareness of the base to action before drilling) (using the flat on the bottom of the receiver to index the action in the vise) It is also interesting to note that it was common practice at "Griffin and Howe" to mill off the bottom of the Lyman #48 base just below the holes, and shorten the vertical slide so that inletting of the stock would not be necessary, something for CG63 guys to think about. On my late model Lyman#48 HVA I have to also relieve the front portion of the sight base to clear the stripper clip ring. Randy
 

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Elit mounting

In the paragraph above it was suggested to "remove the sight base and clamp" etc
Can anyone pass on instructions on how to remove the sight base - I could just pull the thing apart but __ I dont trust myself
 

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Elit sight

If you do not have enough confidence in yourself to disassemble the Elit sight , I would suggest that you do not even try mounting an Elit sight . This is not a job for an unskilled backyard gunsmith . If you Bubba your rifle , you will be sorry later . With all the M-96's already drilled & tapped for diopter sights , why not buy one of them & add the Elit sight .

To answer your question , simply remove the 2 screws on the left side plate of an Elit sight & the top will slide off the base .

If you insist on drilling & tapping your receiver , at least let a qualified gunsmith or machinist do the job correctly .
 

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Elit sight

Job Done - & i'm very happy with the result. If anyone wants to do their own I recommend a carbide end mill dia 2.5mm as your tapping drill - the HSS tap was dicey but successful as long as you're really careful
I've been getting incredible groups from the rifle that just makes it all worth it!!!
 
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