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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
It would be very good if others could import similar thread about the other diopter types. I own a "CG 96/63" (meaning a basic m/96 in CG 63 alike stock) with such a Söderin diopter, that's why I chose this thread. :)


mauserdoc
Posted - 11/23/2006 : 02:36:27 AM
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I have a rifle that I know had a sodern mounted on it. I took the base and with more difficulty than anyone could imaging, attached the base to the reciever with M3 screws. Then tried to slide the diopter back on the base--wouldn't go. noted that the back screw to hold to reciever was sticking up a bit so tightened it just a bit and then proceeded to try again--finally it slid on with some grease and cussing. The put on the metal plate that the screws go into and screwed that in place on the left side of the dopter. That is where I start to have problems--

I know about the little bearing that is under the windage adjust dial. Got that in place then took the (? lock) washer and put it in the screw sticking out the left side and followed that with the nut. Tightened the nut so it looked about as tight as one of the other soderns I have that is mounted. Then tried to turn the dial--locked in place and wouldn't go.

I know that the screw on the left side that the dial goes on has to be threaded into a hole on the base...

Anyone have an engligh service manual for one of these? Anyone have any suggestions that a klutx might find useful? I have pulled out ove half the hair I have left messing with this thing.


Thanks for any insights from the folks out there--


BTW--I seem to have discovered a good board member smith who will be doing my D and T work and, after tonight, will have him mount the diopter while he is at it. What a pain this is... I know I am just missing some basic consept here--help appreciated!!


USMCsean
Posted - 11/23/2006 : 10:15:38 AM
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There was a site www.pettsons.net or something like that, but its not working anymore. I recall the domain was up for renewal a while ago, and it looks like he didn't reregister it. Too bad, it was a GREAT site on Swedish diopters and almost everything else Swedish. It was what I considered the online equivalent of Dana's book.


seabee
Posted - 11/23/2006 : 10:37:17 AM
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Try this URL, it should work. I'd like to find a sheet on the ELIT sight
http://375hh.mine.nu/pettsons/
Hope it still works.
Bill


USMCsean
Posted - 11/23/2006 : 10:42:45 AM
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Sweet! Thanks. Its a little hard to manuever, so I'll give you the shortcut doc.
http://375hh.mine.nu/pettsons/soderin.htm


rbbeck321
Posted - 11/23/2006 : 11:30:45 AM
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The whole part of the site dedicated to sights is interesting and very informative:
http://375hh.mine.nu/pettsons/sights.htm
Bob


mauserdoc
Posted - 11/23/2006 : 11:32:14 AM
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Thanks guys--I didn't know where that thing had gone--I will see where this gets me. Will give some updates as I go along! Happy turkey day!! Jeff


mauserdoc
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 02:51:04 AM
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well, I got it together kind of after a good cleaning. However, the stress continues; With all my efforts to not lose anything... You guessed it--the little bearing that goes under the windage dial--Carefully put into a plastic bag last night... Today, noted a small hole in the bag, and no bearing... @#$% ^!!!!

Does anyone know what size bearing that one is and where I might find another one like it?

Finally, have a couple questions on the venerable gf diopter--have an old reciever that is d and ted. doesn't fit the sodern. Therefore, not the pramm. Certainly not lyman, hagues hooka or faldt. For that reason, feel it is probably for a gf diopter--the holes seem to match up perfect as far as I can tell.

The GF diopter came with an english interpretation of the original manual. This show that there is grinding required for the placement of the gf diopter--on top on the reciever.

what does anyone know about this topic? Is it necessary to grind the top of the 96 reciever before placing a GF diopter?

Thanks in advance!


mauserdoc
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 03:00:57 AM
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OK--I read a little more on petson sight--I guess you do have to grind on the reciever. Scary.... With that in mind, maybe the reciever I mentioned may not be for the gf as it has no grind marks on it.


swede
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 03:15:59 AM
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Cutting a slot on top of the receiver gives full travel to the elevation turret . Without it , you may not get a zero at 100 yards , as you won't be able to get the sight low enough . If you use the original front sight blade instead of the insert type front sight , you may be able to install a taller blade to get a 100 yard zero . Then you probably will not get the full 600 meter travel of a GF diopter .

There are only 3 stagered hole patterns that I know of . The GF & Pramm are the same . The Soderin & Hellqvist are the same & then there is the Elit .

I do not know the diameter of the ball bearing or where you could get one either . I have not had a Soderin apart in a while , but I assume that is the ball detent on the windage adjustment . Without it , you do not have a click adjustment on windage . It will probably work OK if it doesn't move under recoil .


seabee
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 09:16:59 AM
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Doc, I don't know where are those little ball bearing go, but they disappear from the face of the earth. The hooded rear appearature sight, for an M 1, has a very small bearing, to provide the detent for the hood when it is rotated. The manual says do not disassemble the hood. You guessed it! I disassembled it. After a lot of consternation, I went to the local hardware store, they had a large selection of the little devils. I was able to match the size up and purchased several for my spare parts. I use a little GI rifle grease to hold them in place, while assembling.
Bill


swede
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 10:39:58 AM
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Since you do not have the ball to measure , check the spring diameter & hole diameter . The ball will have to be slightly smaller than the hole , but not to small as to go inside the spring . You need a set of " numbered drills " if doing any machine work . They are #1 ( .228 " ) through #60 ( .040" ) & come in a sheet metal index . You can use them to gauge the hole . You can buy them at " Sears " or EBAY .


mauserdoc
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 2:34:34 PM
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Well, sir, you see, the problem is I do still have the ball to measure... The problem is it is on one of the other Soderns that I have... So, All I have to do is get on a big white table and take the wheel off another sodern and there it would be... waiting to fall to the floor in into the heat register, etc... Knowing my mechanical abilility or lack thereof, It may be best to hold off on any further until a future date. Swede--thanks for the info on the base measurements--I can see what you are talking about in terms of the elevation adjustment and how that would be impeded by not having the groove. Also, I would think that without a horizontal cut in the reciever, there would be a tendancy for the GF to be a little lopsided if the base is primariy flat being placed on top of a round reciever. If I am wrong about that, I will proceed to try to install the gf. Otherwise I not try to creap into another target rifle without having to do the work that usually would be done.


HikerLT
Posted - 01/07/2007 : 11:23:24 AM
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MauserDoc,

I have a Soderin sight disassembled - I will measure the ball bearing for you a little later today.
[email protected]


jmm03
Posted - 01/07/2007 : 6:29:50 PM
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I needed a ball for my soderin also,I took a very small precision bearing apart and used the ball from it.A good hobby shop that has radio controlled cars might have some.Good luck.jim (p.s.,if you find out the size post it on the board and i'll look and see if I have some for you)


HikerLT
Posted - 01/07/2007 : 8:02:33 PM
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Ball bearing measures .093 inches on my calipers.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Inserts for Söderin Diopter

Wartuna
Posted - 01/19/2007 : 12:50:25 PM
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I am looking for some replacement irises for a Soderin dioper sight or an iris that would be compatible with the socket on the Soderin and would appreciate the assistance.


swede
Posted - 01/19/2007 : 5:46:14 PM
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I have not seen any of the peep inserts for the Soderin rear diopter sight for sale anywhere , nor have I seen a parts list with the available peep sizes . If you have access to a small lathe , it appears to be an easy part to make . You can always drill the hole larger if needed or plug the cavity & redrill to a smaller size .

Also , there are 2 sizes of the flaired lock nut that I have seen . One is .475" diameter & the other is .550" diameter . The thread is M-8x.75 m/m pitch .


swede
Posted - 01/21/2007 : 06:54:14 AM
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I have checked my Soderin sights & find 2 differant size aperture holes : " 1.5 m/m and 1.7 m/m " , if that is any help to you .
 

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Discussion Starter #3
EB
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Sweden
5 Posts
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 11:52:54 AM
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Söderin diopter:

The numbers on the scale are 2 for 200 meters and 3 for 300 meters etc.
You need the correct scale for your ammo, there are a lot of different scales.
they still make them in sweden for different ammo types.

1 click on windage adjustment moves point of impact 3 cm at 300 meters and 4 cm at 400 meters and so on.

If I remember correct you can use a formula for calculating windage. If the wind is 5 meter/sec and your target is at 300 meters, you take 5 x 3 / 2 = number of clicks.
5 times 3 is 15, divided by 2 is 7,5.
7 klicks times 3cm at 300 meters is adjustment by 21 cm.
the formula above was usable with target ammo V0 800m/s

Hopefully you got something out of this, have to say it's a very long time since I used it
so I might have it wrong.

Happy shooting
EB


Hag
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 11:16:38 PM
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I have Söderin sights on a CG63 that I have shot a half dozen times at 1000 yards. The rifle was obviously set up to shoot long range because there is a thin shim under the rear sight. The shim was not noticeable until I looked closely after being told the sight should not be able to elevate to shoot 1000 yards.

When the rear sight is as low as possible,the rifle is dead on at 300 yards. Each line on the elevation knob equals one M.O.A. up to 1000 yards. I am very lucky ,because I bought the rifle to shoot long range. Whoever built this rifle and calibrated the sights is a genius in my book. I have not figured out the windage adjustment scale, but it takes a lot of clicks to move the bullet very far. Really like the sight and all the apertures, but won't somebody make front sight posts!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
mauserdoc
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 01:29:06 AM
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I have had success with getting soderns mounted on 96s--I still haven't found the tiny ball bearing to go on the one that I mentioned last week. I'll figure that out one way or another.

The question today has to do with determinant of windage adjustments.

I got the sight mounted and the clicks work well and It has a good tight feel to it. However, when I compare it to the ones I have mounted on other guns, find that as I turn the dial counter clockwise, the sight only moves part way over to right side of its base. The ones that had already been mounted will move all the way over.

In general, I think that this must have to do with where the screw is on on the left when the mount is attached to the base with the 2 little screws.

any insight on this issue? I would just play around with it except that I hate to keep taking the little screws in and out for fear of ultimately screwing something up or losing them--

Thanks in advance--Mauserdoc


swede
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 04:28:24 AM
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You may have to file the heads of the screws down so that nothing protrudes from the slide .


mauserdoc
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 9:22:39 PM
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It will go over the top of the screw--the screw is sunk enough that that isn't the issue. The problem is that I simply run out of being able to turn the dial to the counterclockwise. I am wondering how movement of the screw in or out before installation of the upper part of the sight to the base can affect things. That is the only think I can see that could be an issue. Just wondered if anyone knows how where the windage screw should be adjusted to prior to screwing in the screws on hte left side of the sight so as to hold the windage dial in place.

shot the gun today. Was also shooting 7mm. interesting how the 6.5 has a good bit less kick (if one can say either do!!).

The gun grouped high by 12 inches and 6inches to the left of the bull. This was using the stock front sight with no tunnel. Would the aperature front sight be taller and possibly correct this issue--the elevation dial was cranked down as far as it would go.

It was 38 degrees here in nashville--with the wind blowing, I was really glad to have my barrel heating up--excellent hand warmer!!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Bimmer
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 7:40:58 PM
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I understand there are three different elevation discs for the Söderin diopter, differentiated by color: red, yellow, and white. Do any of the resident Swede rifle gurus happen to know which ammunition type and/or bullet weights correspond to these different scales? Thanks very much.


Sarge39
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 11:41:10 PM
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I believe white is for 6.5x55.


USMCsean
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 11:44:49 PM
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They are all for 6.5x55, but the different colors indicate certain types of ammo. The sights were tailored to specific loads. I don't know what they are either, but I am just trying to clarify for Sarge39. I am also trying to find out which colors are which, but never asked the question. I'll be looking for a reply myself.


swede
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 05:13:51 AM
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This may be relevant to you question . I have an instruction sheet for the GF diopter sight in English . It has the following info :

White ring = for 6.5 or 7.62 ammo with a velocity of 780 meters per second .

Orange ring = for 6.5 or 7.62 ammo with a velocity of 800 meters per second .

"Crown Jewels" states that one of the 3 colored rings for the Soderin sight is for 7.62 ammo, but does not say which one .

You may find the answer to your on question on Pettson's diopter sight page , but I cannot find the link now. You may try posting your question on Pettson's Swede Civilian Forum . He will probably know the answer if anyone does .


USMCsean
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 07:10:41 AM
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I tried to browse the site, and I didn't find anything. If its there, its hidden from my eyes. LOL. This is the link for the site: http://www.pettsons.net/sights.htm

Remark by Carcano: is offline now; try an archived version via http://www.archive.org


Sarge39
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 09:39:01 AM
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Great info swede! While were on the subject, do you know a link that explains how to zero the Soderin sight, and what height to use for the front sight?


Bimmer
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 11:10:43 AM
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Thanks for the info, guys. I had an old link to Pettson's, which was dead - that was the first place I tried to look. But, as mentioned above, the info doesn't seem to be there. Interesting that the GF uses white and orange, and that the Soderin uses white, yellow, and red - I wonder if they follow similar conventions, with orange/yellow denoting high velocity and white lower velocity. Of course, if one accepts that premise, it would suggest the red is for 7.62. It would be interesting to see if pictures of all three discs could be found and compared side by side.


Dutchman
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 11:30:52 AM
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Here's a white and red for the Söderin. Don't have the other.
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Dutchman/2006719113028_soderin1.jpg
Download Attachment:
14.68 KB


Bimmer
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 3:28:20 PM
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Thanks a lot. It seems that the red disc would apply to a flatter-shooting round, as it adds less elevation over its 100-600m scale. I'll have to look at the trajectories of 6.5x55 in various loadings and 7.62 NATO to see how they stack up. I hope someone out there has a yellow disc and can shoot a pic for comparison purposes.

EDIT: Does anyone have load and ballistic coefficient data for the 143gr m/41 spitzer and 160(?)gr roundnose Swedish military cartridges? Similar data for mil-spec 7.62 NATO would be helpful as well. I'd like to plug all this stuff into a ballistic calculator and see what comes out.


swede
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 5:42:50 PM
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Sarge39 : See Pettson's page in the link posted by Sean , above . That gives the most info on the Söderin that I know of .

As for the height of your front sight , I assume you are using a front blade . I do not know of any info about the correct height of the blade , but the Elit Kornring front sight hood & insert is one of the more common front sights . These are used with the Pramm , GF , Elit , Söderin & Hellqvist diopter sights . The distance at the rear of the front sight from the top of the barrel to the center of the globe insert is about 15 m/m . This seems correct with the built in adjustments in all of the above sights . One of the +3.5 front sight blades will get you close to this & is a good place to start .


TE53
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 8:12:42 PM
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Here is a yellow ring, apparently of recent manufacture:
http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/TE53/200671920114_Soderin3breduced.jpg
Download Attachment:
41.32 KB
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the rings were for 750, 800, and 850 m/sec.


Bimmer
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 8:55:19 PM
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Hmmm, that's definitely a different style of disc. It appears to be flat rather than convex, with painted on numbers instead of embossed. Not sure if it uses the same scale as the original yellow disc - maybe a custom disc for somebody's reloads? If it is on the same scale, however, it seems to have the least elevation increase of any of them - looks like about a 75deg gap between the 1 and the 6, whereas the white has almost none, and the red has maybe 45-50deg.


Bimmer
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 2:14:37 PM
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OK, I got a photo of the original yellow Söderin disc for comparison. As you can see, the gradations are not the same as on the yellow disc shown above, but do appear to fall in between the scales of the white disc (more drop at long range) and red disc (flatter trajectory). Also interesting is that the yellow disc in the above post is marked "850" and appears to be set up for an even flatter trajectory than the red original style disc. If 850 refers to m/v in meters per second, it is possible that the white, yellow, and red discs correspond with lesser velocities, perhaps 700, 750, and 800mps respectively. I have no way to confirm this, but it does seem plausible.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Bimmer/200672314954_Soderin yellow disc.jpg
Download Attachment:
193.74 KB


swede
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 4:01:23 PM
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All my Söderin sights either have the paint worn off or the markings are filled with dirt . I cannot see any color . With all 3 colored disc shown in this post , it was easy to sort them out .

Take a measurment between the " one " and " six " lines & you can tell which disc you have as follows :

White disc = 2 m/m

Yellow disc = 4 m/m

Red disc = 9.5 m/m

This applies to an original disc for the Soderin sight . The solid yellow disc with 850 on it ( shown above ) does not fit in this group .


Bimmer
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 4:38:30 PM
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Glad it helped you out. I still hope to find some more definitive information on the specific velocities for which each disc is calibrated, and also to discover if one is indeed intended for 7.62 NATO instead of 6.5x55. The latter seems increasingly unlikely to me, but if anyone has a CG80 with a Soderin diopter, perhaps something further can be learned.


swede
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 5:50:29 PM
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I do not know that any CG80's were made in 7.62 ???? My CG80 has a " GF " diopter with a white ring marked " B " & has a shorter distance between the one & six markings . It has a 25 inch bull barrel .

My CG63 has a " GF " diopter sight with the orange ring marked " A " , with a longer distance between the one & six markings . It has the 29 inch heavy barrel .


Bimmer
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 6:41:58 PM
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Why did I think the CG80 was in 7.62? I thought I'd read somewhere that Sweden produced a 7.62 NATO match rifle based on the 96 Mauser action after the cartridge was adopted there, but maybe I'm completely wrong, or perhaps I just mixed up the nomenclature. Of course, if no such rifle was produced, then the idea of one of the discs being calibrated for 7.62 would seem rather silly.


swede
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 7:18:43 PM
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The CG63's were made in 7.62 caliber. About 100 of them were exported to the USA with GF sights. These sold poorly , as a new M-70 Winchester with a mounted scope sold for less at the time.
There were also a number of them made as a CG63E model with Parker-Hale or A.J.Parker sights for the British & Canadian market. The Swedish military made the M-6 ( 6.5x55 ) & M-7 ( 7.62 nato ) with " GF " sights , which were like a CG63 but had the stock disc & cleaning rod for military competition. Surely these 7.62 rifles used a differdnt calibrated disc from the 6.5 disc. We just need to find someone with a CG63 or M-7 in 7.62 caliber to see the difference in the scales of the Söderin & GF sights .
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Söderin Sight Removal

Spanner
Posted - 03/09/2007 : 9:12:30 PM
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Can anyone give me some tips on removing a Söderin sight? I don't want to disassemble it any more than I have to to get it off. Anything to be careful of? (visions of springs and ball bearings flying through the air)


swede
Posted - 03/09/2007 : 10:17:23 PM
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Remove the 2 screws from the side plate holding the windage screw & the upper half of the sight will slide off enough to remove the mounting screws in the base . One screw is slightly under the windage knob , but if you take the front screw out first & slide the sight to the left as you remove the side screw , you will not have to remove the windage knob .
 
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