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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I could not find a heading in the forum to pose this question, so I entered it under Winchester. I recently purchased a Winchester Super Grade French Walnut rifle from Kjergaard Sports in Minnesota. They are well respected and are one of the largest shooting sports stores in Minnesota, Iowa, North and South Dakota.

The transaction was without any issues as I sent them a check and received the rifle. The person I spoke with regarding the above sale specifically stated to me that he would include the ‘Bill of Sale’ within the invoice. After waiting the required number of days, I was able to pick up the firearm. However, the gun shop where I made the transfer had ‘opened’ the box without my authorization (Personal Property). In all the years of purchasing firearms, I have never had any open a box that a firearm was contained in. Personally, I did not care for this one bit. More so, the person in the gun store said there was no receipt in the box or taped to the box. Again, in over forty years, I have never seen this nor do I appreciate people trying to dupe others.

I asked the gun store for the exterior box and they said they ‘threw it out’. Never ever heard of that before. I specifically told them the invoice and receipt were in the box or affixed to the exterior in a holder. They said there was nothing. I did not believe them at all and felt that they were keeping the receipt for purposes that I cannot understand. Kjergaard Sports specifically told me the receipt was within the box, in which I truly believed them. We’re speaking of firearms here, not toys.

All my phone calls are logged and recorded for future reference. My question is should I file a complaint with the AG about this. It is highly unlikely that no receipt was with the firearm, none. Maybe, the ATF would agree with them in opening the box but maybe not the law. The Federal Form was sent to them by Kjergaard Sports, so there was no need to open the box. All of the above information can be fully corroborated and has been fully documented.

Again, I do not at all appreciate the sneakiness of the gun shop whereas the transfer was made. I would very much like any and all opinions relating to the above. I do not at all believe the gun shop where the transfer was made. How would any feel about this deceptive act? And, what would be the purpose of the gun store keeping the receipt?
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I'd file a complaint with AG, yes. And with ATFE.

If I was the shop, since I have to log gun in and out of my bound nook, opening box to verify contents would be proper, but thereafter disposing of paperwork and box would be improper (but not unlawful) IMO (NOTE - am NOT an attorney).
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The Federal Form was sent via email by Kjergaard Sports containing the 'serial number'. There was no need to verify the serial number whereas the content was sent through email. No, I disagree that opening the box is proper as you state. The firearm is my personal property. Again, there may be a difference of opinion from the ATF to the law. I'm seriously giving consideration of filing a complaint with the Attorney General of our state. I just despise sneaky worthless liars. I will never conduct business there ever again, not ever.
 

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The Federal Form was sent via email by Kjergaard Sports containing the 'serial number'. There was no need to verify the serial number whereas the content was sent through email. No, I disagree that opening the box is proper as you state. The firearm is my personal property. Again, there may be a difference of opinion from the ATF to the law. I'm seriously giving consideration of filing a complaint with the Attorney General of our state. I just despise sneaky worthless liars. I will never conduct business there ever again, not ever.
The transfer dealer was TOLD what the S/N was supposed to be. Whether the boxed contents were ACTUALLY that is another matter. Packing errors happen and the problems the dealer could have in case of an error are - significant. Back when I was still lawyering, client had some real grief when one happened and they didn't do a physical check. I would complain, but I can't agree that the dealer did anything criminal. Wrong, but not criminal.

I would certainly not do business with that dealer in the future.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Well, I've performed a lot of litigation, namely acting as a paralegal, though not barred. I have even visited the Supreme Court on numerous occasions filing writs of certiorari. In over fifty years, I've never seen any problems in purchasing or transferring firearms. I agree with you on the criminal aspect. However, I do not at all believe him. Can I prove it, maybe not. However, the word of Kjergaard Sports I place as the bottom line. I know they have the receipt but cannot comprehend what they may do with it, other than logging it with the record. The 'physical' check is beyond me. We're speaking of firearms. Thank you very much for the professional courtesy.
 

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The Federal Form was sent via email by Kjergaard Sports containing the 'serial number'. There was no need to verify the serial number whereas the content was sent through email. No, I disagree that opening the box is proper as you state. The firearm is my personal property. Again, there may be a difference of opinion from the ATF to the law. I'm seriously giving consideration of filing a complaint with the Attorney General of our state. I just despise sneaky worthless liars. I will never conduct business there ever again, not ever.

The dealer must verify what is in the package and the serial number.
And they have a limited time to do it, so they are not going to have something sit around and not on the books, waiting for someone show up 5 days later. That is asking for big trouble.

Have seen those "don't open" messages.......I have no choice but to ignore them.
I have also seen dealers fail to include documentation (mistake, not intentional) on who the receiver is. I have had shipments from a factory missing doc's, including having the pack slip envelope ripped off.
And what "Federal Form" are you referring to ?
Besides, if the doc's are inside the package, how is the shop supposed to find them if they can't open the package?
 

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as a FFL\SOT, and having a paralegal as a wife, we always open the package, and verify the serial number

regardless of what it says on the box, or on a receipt inside

the only Federal paperwork that is send from dealer to dealer for standard or non NFA firearms is the actual FFL,
any handwritten or typed serial number is suspect until verified,

(note, for the NFA stuff, a copy of the Form 3 or Form 4 is included, and even then, opened and verified)


as far as the ATF being called over and open box, considering part of the ATF regulations is that a FFL has to acquire all firearms within 24 hours, , and that the information must be recorded accurately, they will likely side with the dealer,

and honestly, if you want to waste your time contacting the AG office, that is up to you,
however as a tax payer,, I would suggest you not,,,,

now as far as the box and paperwork, the FFL get filed at my shop, and the paperwork gets put with the firearm, which may or may not be stored in its original packing box, (a generic box is just that,

we also chack all the packing material to make sure there are no pieces\parts mixed in,


so, if you really want to be the only one to open that box, you need to arrive when the Carrier gets there,
 

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FFLs open and physically inspect the serial number of every single firearm that goes into their acquisition and disposition book. That includes all transfers. Nothing is taken for granted when it comes to ATF compliance.

Also it is common for exterior boxes to be disposed of. Though I would always keep all packaging for the transferee specifically to avoid this kind of situation. I would imagine that the box would have to be in their trash if they "threw it out", unless trash day came between the package arrival and your retrieval.

Kjergaard should be able to send you another copy of your receipt/bill of sale.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
@ Valkoinen Kuolema
In fifty years not any gun dealer has ever opened one of my boxes. When the gun shop continually lied about the box, what use would it be to ask if the box was in the trash. I'm sure they already had that figured out. Thought of that, yet said nothing. Yes, Kjergaard sent me a copy but I have not the "Hard Copy" which the gun shop stole.
 

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The FFL has till the close of the Next business day after the day of receipt of the firearm to log it into their Book.
.

Most FFLs when receiving a gun for a transfer (commonly called a 3rd party transfer), will upon recving the firearm from the shipper, will then contact the prospective buyer that the firearm has arrived at the shop.

Since the FFL has the above time frame to log the gun into their book, there is no real need to open the package right away unless the buyer is not going to be able to view the gun in person in that time period.

There is a bit of both Gov't Regulations and plain old good business practice to be done here.

Some FFL's will open every package when delivered. They want to log the gun(s) in immedietely,,their choice of course.
But in the case of a 3rd party transfer, where the buyer has inspection and refusal rights often,,the common sense business practice would be to allow the buyer to be there when that is done. That if at all possible with the above restraints imposed.

If not then the FFL has no choice due to Regulations to open the parcel and at least gain the basic info needed for their log book.

Disposing of any paperwork or the packaging/box is another bad business practice. If the gun is refused for damage not mentioned during the sale for example, can either side then turn to looking at the possibility of Shipping damage and a claim?.. Not really if the packaging is missing.

There are good ways and bad ways to handle customers and customer service. It can all be done well even when necessary Gov't Regulations must be followed as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
@ ktr
Very well stated and precise. That is the best and truest response of all. Thank you very much for the detailed information. 'Business practice' is exactly the point. I would imagine I'm too trustworthy of people claiming to be honest.
 

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I can’t see any reason why an ffl would not open a box to verify contents that’s why you’re paying them to do the transfer. It’s easy enough for a sender to make a typo in a hand written note of the serial. And it’s the ffl on the line if a mistake is made and they didn’t verify it. Also, although unrelated here, if in a ban state a sender could have sent something illegal and lied about what was in the box.
 

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I can tell there are a lot of folks who don't completely understand the transfer process.
Once that firearm hits the receiving dealers door, it is going into their A&D book.
It has been logged out into their name/license by the sender.
I'm not going into all the possible scenarios (all bad) that can happen if they don't.
So here is one I had this summer...
Good customer purchased a Colt SP1 from a dealer thru GB.
We get the rifle.
Open and check for clear right away.
Start verifying the rifle info against the sales slip, and guess what. The s/n does not match.
The selling dealer missed the last digit of the s/n, which was struck 1/2 line off from the other numbers.
I sent the seller a photo of it, informing them of the boo-boo. They corrected their books.
That rifle had been advertised as an early SP1 (late 1960's) to really being made about '81(IIRC).
Needless to say, the buyer was not thrilled.
Had I not caught that, and ran with the s/n they provided, he would not have a leg to stand on in getting the price reduced on what was sent.
 

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@ ktr
Very well stated and precise. That is the best and truest response of all. Thank you very much for the detailed information. 'Business practice' is exactly the point. I would imagine I'm too trustworthy of people claiming to be honest.
MOST (not all, or there would not have been much business in my law office before my retirement) brick and mortar businesses ARE honest. Not all, as described by ktr, follow best practices. Failure can lead to a lot of (justified IMO) heartburn and anger. Failure to follow best practices is not, usually, an indication of dishonesty - but can sure lead to a mad customer and loss of future business, and quite possibly loss of reputation.
 

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@ Lyman1903
No, I disagree with you. In fact, I just filed a complaint with the AG of our state: "My prerogative".
Opening the box to verify the serial number and content is not only lawful, but prudent.

A person would have to be an idiot to not visually verify that what they legally signed for is what they received.

Because of the fact that the FFL is legally liable for truthful documentation, he was most certainly prudent to verify the serial number. Without an X-Ray machine, he has to "open the box".

How many times in your life have you been burned due to someone else's "clerical error". This is obvious on its face.

Regarding throwing out the packaging material, not illegal, but not optimal.

I wouldn't use this FFL again if this grated on you.

I do have a homework experiment for you, call up five FFLs and tell them "I want to transfer a firearm through you, but you're not allowed to open the box to inspect the contents."

See how far that gets you then report back to us.

In all honesty it sounds to me like you're not closely attached to the reality of how firearms transactions work.

If no dealer has ever inspected firearms contents that you had shipped, please enumerate those dealers here.
 

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The transfer dealer was TOLD what the S/N was supposed to be. Whether the boxed contents were ACTUALLY that is another matter. Packing errors happen and the problems the dealer could have in case of an error are - significant. Back when I was still lawyering, client had some real grief when one happened and they didn't do a physical check. I would complain, but I can't agree that the dealer did anything criminal. Wrong, but not criminal. I would certainly not do business with that dealer in the future.
The receiving ffl is responsible for verifying the serial number. I have received factory firearms with the wrong sn on both the shipping dealers invoice, and on the factory box. These tend to be handguns and I think that they were taken out of a display case and never matched to the appropriate plastic box from the mfg. the shipping depot then just took the sn off that box. This has happened 3 times over the last year or so. It is my policy to take the sn directly off the firearm, no discussion not negotiable. I’m not risking jail time by accepting a 3rd parties statement. I do keep all shipping boxes, paperwork etc to provide to the customer and only keep a copy of the senders ffl. It is reasonable when the receiving party has a legal requirement. I know you will argue that they could have called you so you could come down and witness this, but a ffl has 24hours (if I recall, my practice is to update my books immediately upon receipt) to update their books.
 

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Looking at the photo and description of the Winchester, I am going to "assume" it is a newly made Winchester, assembled by Browning Viana in Portugal. About $2k NIB.
The OP never stated that there was damage to the rifle, or if the primary container (with the label) was damaged.
Those Winchester boxes are only sealed with 1 or 2 pieces of tape.
The outer box can literally be anything, and not dedicated to that specific rifle.
When shipping out, many of us will open the box, and insert the paperwork inside with the rifle (so it doesn't get lost) then re-seal, overbox and ship. The more expensive the firearm (5~20k), the more likely we are to inspect, and maybe photograph prior to shipping.
Who knows how many times it was handled prior to shipping.

The more I look at this, it is just the mountain and molehill comparison.
 
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