Hmmm, neither have I. Are you sure it is a Mexican M1910? They are usually stamped pretty deeply, it would be difficult to remove the Mexican crest without leaving sign that it was done. Does it have the small ring M98 action? Some of their earlier M93 and M95 rifles and carbines have been refinished several times after seeing hard service for many years and their markings are almost gone, it could be one of those. Examine it carefully.
Well, I think it's pretty definately a Mexican 1910 - the shop has misidentified Mausers before, but it certainly looks like one from the pictures they sent me and I can't think of anything else that might be mistaken for one.
I had one that had no crest but I dont think it ever had one.There was just the SN and the NAco import marking. I think these came in with all the FN-24s and other Mexcian mausers with Navy arms.The SCW 1910s were usually refinished with a black/blue finish and the crest faint from refinishing process.I have seen one that just had D.F. Mexico on the receiver ring and no crest.John Wall should have more info/better answer
What are the markings on the side rail? The German DWM-made Model 1904 carbine has a lightly rolled Mexican crest that could have worn off, or perhaps this is a unmarked vanilla M1904. It would have the DWM address on its siderail. In any case, the Mexican M1904 German-made carbine was the model for the Mexican-made M1910. I have an DWM M1904 Mexican-type 7mm rifle which was made without a crest that I bought at auction from a Cape Cod dealer a number of years ago. Where there are long rifles, can carbines be far behind?
A much closer examination is in order here.
Well, I bought the gun and it arrived today, it's definately German-made. In the right light I can see the remains of a Mexican crest and a DWM address on the side rail. The odd thing is, as near as I can tell, it's dated 1903. Why would a Model 1904 be dated 1903? It's possible it's actually 1905, but it looks like 1903 to me. It's also stamped REP on the left of the chamber, any idea what that means?
Nyles, I collect Mexican military firearms and the receiver you have is from a 1902 Mexican rifle. I checked James B. Hughes' book, "Mexican Military Arms," and also "Mauser Military Rifles of the World," and neither book mentions a carbine.
All the model 1902's I have seen, including mine, are dated 1902 and they were made by both DWM or Steyr.
I am not saying that yours is not authentic, it is just not mentioned in either reference. Regarding the initials REP, I just don't know; mine is not marked in such a manner. Rob
Hi Nyles and Rob,
I was in error when I typed 1904 above. In fact, as Rhuelga points out, it should be a Model 1902 made in 1903. The Hughes book has a few omissions in it as you might expect from a book written 40 years ago. The M1902 rifles and carbines were only made by DWM. The only M1902 carbine I am aware of in arms literature is illustrated in Olson's "Mauser Bolt Rifles" and it has been there quite awhile. I also collect Mexican military Mauser rifles. I have found it to be an area where there are many mistakes in the limited literature, some of which can be traced back to W. H. B. Smith. As far as I know, there never was a Steyr-made Mexican Mauser until the M.1912, and most of those were never delivered. The Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Brno-made M1912 carbine is a myth, and the Model 1954 Mexican Mauser is simply a Model 1936 enlarged to handle the .30-06 cartridge. The M1954 rifle photo we normally see, which has an Springfield 03A3-type rear sight, does not appear to have been manufactured at all. On the other hand, the M.1954 with the Mexican Navy crest is virtually unknown in Mauser literature. We have a long way to go when it comes to our knowledge of Mexican military rifles.
Rob, do you have a Steyr-made M1902 rifle or carbine? Can you post pictures?
I wish I could figure out how to post pictures, but as of yet I haven't. Yes, I have two Mexican 1912's made by Steyr and if I can figure this out, I'll post pictures tomorrow. The emblem and the date on top are very light on both rifles so they are not the clearest but they are there. I agree that Hughes book is rather incomplete, but it is a start.
As far as the 1954 model, I also used to think that it was just a 1936 chambered for the 30-06 but it is not. I am very fortunate to own one, and the main differences are the bolt, which is longer and not interchangeable with 1936, the handle is swept back very gracefully, the cocking piece is more graceful than the 36 and the back of the piece is not open. It has the same rear sights as the 36. The front band does not have loop for the strap. The receiver is marked on the left side "7.62mm Model 54" and it is chambered for the 30-06 (I checked it with a head-space gage). Hope to get some pictures posted soon.
I'm kind of curious why you say few the Steyr 1912s were delivered - I have an Osprey book on the Mexican Revolution with a fair amount of period photos, and there's alot of Steyr 1912s in there. Unless there's any other Mexican-purchased Mausers with a pistol grip stock and bayonet bar, I have to admit I've only recent started seriously researching Mexican models.
I said that "most were never delivered". In fact, a goodly number were delivered...but most did end up in Austro-Hungarian service in the hands their Landsturm and other second line units during WW I.
Have you checked the Steyr production history figures on the Gunboards Mannlicher Form? If you check the 1912-1913 years, you will see that slightly over 32,000 Mexican M1912's were produced. I assume that all of these rifles made well before WW I were paid for and delivered.
After the start of the war, production on the Mexican, Chilean and Columbian M1912 contract rifles continued at Steyr. Ultimately, the war prevented the delivery of these rifles. Owing to the severe loss of weapons experienced by the Austro-Hungarian armed forces, all the M1912's left in the Steyr warehouse were sequestered by the A/H Army and gradually issued for use. The best information on this program is found in John Walter's "Central Powers Firearms of WW I" (IIRC). Of the three national groups of M1912's, the Mexican contract guns were the largest, totalling about 50-60,000 rifles. (again, from memory. I'll confirm later wafter I find my copy of the book!) There were so many Mexican M1912's in A/H army use that all M1912's were grouped together and called "Mexicanische gewehr" in the A/H Army's technical manual for ordnance logistics.
The WW II era German Army foreign weapons manual has a section on Yugoslavia which indicates that a large number of these M.1912's eventually migrated to Yugoslvia where they were later completely rebuilt and reissued as the Yugoslav M1924b. Others remained in Austria. Another group of 5,000 were in the 1921 Czechoslovak Army inventory. By the late 1930's, only fifty or so M.1912's remained in Austrian Army service. (See the Austrian Army arms inventory posted on the Mannlicher Forum a few weeks ago.)
contract that was for probably 90-100,000 rifles.
Thanks for the info. That is very interesting, specially your sources for information. ( I am always looking for additional sources) Also remember that Mexico bought 1907 model rifles from Steyr and they look very similar to the 1912, since they also have a pistol grip. Perhaps some of the rifles Nyles reported seeing in pictures were 1907's?
What is your source for the existence of the 1907 Steyr Mauser? Steyr production data never mentions this weapon. There is no literature that I am aware of that shows any image of this rifle...but it is listed in many books. I am highly suspicious of any mention of this rifle, and suspect that it's just one author copying another author's unsupported statements without any independent verifiation. There's been a lot of that going around in military rifle collecting!
If anyone has seen or owns a Mexican M1907 Steyr Mauser rifle, please post a few sharp, close-up pictures of the receiver markings....or just raise your hand.
You might be right, I have never seen one in person. I am not an expert on the field, my only reference to the 1907 is the Hughes' book, the book of Mausers of the World and some other book I checked last night. It will be interesting if anyone comes up with a picture. If I remember right, one of the books gives credit to the Springfield Museum for the picture. Has anyone out there been to the museum?
Yes, I live two hours from the Springfield Armory National Historic Site and Museum and have spent many hours in the second floor reference collection looking over and photographing many hundreds of their old military bolt action rifles. I am confident that there is no M1907 Steyr Mauser there...made for any country. There is however an M1907 made at Waffenfabrik Mauser Oberndorf...but not one made by Steyr.
Here are a few pictures of one of my Mexican M1912's. The bolt is mismatched but the rifle is unit marked to the Austro-Hungarian 91st Landsturm Battalion. All the original Mexican national cartouches in both wood and metal are still present. Unlike the arsenal bright finish on the receivers of the Colombian and Chilean M1912's, the Mexican rifles had blued receivers.
I just realized that I forgot to post a picture of the Steyr side rail markings. I'll do that tonight.