Gunboards Forums banner
1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,216 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Here is my experience to scoping battle rifles...not the intent to make a repro sniper but to shoot more accurately and shoot longer distances with accuracy. IE:: get more use out of battle rifles with iron sights as my eyes grow older.

A> Lee Enfields : scope mounts drill or no drill still have scope riding high and drop of stock is such , beyond 600 yds, its awkward to shoot from prone. If you shoot from a bench, its problematic if you get much satisfaction but from prone, after 600 yds, there is not enough stock touching your shoulder if you are shooting prone supported.

b. M1 Rifles, K31 both have off set scopes and not only is it awkward but again, not much stock to your shoulder so accuracy issues arise.

c. 03A3/4 : drop is stock is such you can comfortably shoot 800/1000 yds from prone as long as scope is mounted very low. I do fine with Lyman Alaskan but if I were to mount a more modern scope with larger scope objective....stock fitting issues begin to arise.

d. Mosin Nagant : If a PU, you have the same nil butt stock into your shoulder and a chin weld is worthless...you can do it but you are better served with a bean bag on stock to get a firm cheek weld...its half ass solution but it works.

All of the above have stocks such they were made for iron sights and are not very user friendly with scopes mounted, If you insist on scoping these weapons, you'll be fine at 300 yds, begin having awkward ergonomics at 600 yds.

If you must scope , 300 to 600 yds is optimum window.

I don't drill and tap or alter my battle rifles so when I can scope then with out damage to them, I do so but my expectations of performance has to be tempered.

I once for load development shot my scoped K31 from a Lead Sled , from prone position and shot accurate sub moa groups on 1000 yd line. No doubt off a bench, lead sled would work just fine. However....from my view, its one thing to do load development and test accuracy results with a lead sled but its entirely unsatisfactory
to shoot my rifles with one as some kind of crutch. I am not disabled , I want to shoot like a soldier but frankly, it the time comes I can only shoot 30 caliber battle rifles off a bench or in any position using a Lead Sled...here I go.

Nothing wrong shooting 100 to 600 yds and that is what battle rifles do well with iron sights but if you scope them, yes you usually can shoot a bit more accurately.

Some rifle with strap on cheek risers and scopes are a real half assed experience to shoot at 600 yds. Some like my M1A are half great in ergonomics at 800 yds but at 1000yds, its awkward and near useless.

One other thing : Iron sights at 600 yds and beyond. Get in the prone and roll up 600 yd or 600m setting and see how your rifles shoulders from a prone position. At 600 yds, this is becoming awkward but now roll up 1000 yd or 1000m setting and your into Turkey necking with little stock into your shoulder. Just try it and then consider how hard it will be to shoot accurate....yeah, you're more into shooting a beaten zone around the target or volley fire type accuracy. Some rifles have better stock configuration like M1 and M14 and yes , you can do 800 and 1000 yds with iron sights very credibly ...the stock allows that . You can also do it with a No.4 Enfield with the ladder rear sight but stock interface with your shoulder is at marginal conditions.

I have found accuracy from WWII battle rifles is not a issue at 800 and 1000 yds, they can do it , the barrels and caliber have the legs. Sights and stocks might not let you do it very effectively so temper your expectations accordingly. The envelope for iron sights is 600 yds, you can exceed that with hard work but know the rifle as issued was never designed for that trip.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,216 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Note : I posted the above here because those who read this forum shoot distance. Your definition of distance is different (and definition of "accuracy") is different than readers/ posters on Collector Forum. THere the orientation is different and driven by recreational plinking, short range deer hunting or more usually the limitations of 100 yd range access only. Not slamming them, but they are not of same point of view on distance & accuracy. I wish them success.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
18,170 Posts
A> Lee Enfields : scope mounts drill or no drill still have scope riding high and drop of stock is such , beyond 600 yds, its awkward to shoot from prone. If you shoot from a bench, its problematic if you get much satisfaction but from prone, after 600 yds, there is not enough stock touching your shoulder if you are shooting prone supported.
Get the S&K "Instamount" in the "proprietary ring version", not the Weaver rail. Its N/NT made of steel & holds zero if properly mounted. Is as low as you can mount a 3~9X40 scope on a No4. the scope bell is just shy of the handguard when fitted.
Then get a cheek riser. It works fine. I shoot to 650 yds with no problems. This is actually on a No5, I use the longer Fultons Of Bisley rail on the No4, but this is lighter & more compact for the No5.

3807485
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
Note : I posted the above here because those who read this forum shoot distance. Your definition of distance is different (and definition of "accuracy") is different than readers/ posters on Collector Forum. THere the orientation is different and driven by recreational plinking, short range deer hunting or more usually the limitations of 100 yd range access only. Not slamming them, but they are not of same point of view on distance & accuracy. I wish them success.
This was very interesting. I want to shoot at distance. I've thought about scopes but I'd really prefer not to if I can help it.
Thanks for the advice and thanks for managing expectations.
 

·
Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
9,497 Posts
I agree with "Milprileb's" position. However, there are a few ways to scope a battle rifle to good effect.
3807514


Shown here is my No 4 Mk 1 fitted with the BadAce NDT scope mount. The iron sights remain usable with the mount installed, although obviously the scope must be removed for this, as well as to remove the bolt.
I used a 1.5-5x20 Leupold scope specifically because the straight tube allows using the lowest rings available.
I can shoot without need of a cheek pad or riser on the butt, but I only shoot from a bench owing to a bad back that makes prone shooting too painful. As "milprileb" pointed out, everything changes when you shoot prone.

Worth noting that I used Burris rings because the large clamp nut makes it easy to install and remove the scope. I find that by carefully positioning the scope on the rail I can return to zero pretty close; one or two shots max for zero confirmation and adjustment if necessary.

With this relatively low power scope, I am approximating the shooting experience with a "T" rifle. This rifle has shot MOA @ 200 yds with a specific load using the no longer available Hornady 174 gr .312" FMJBT that was sold only by Graf's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,216 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Plonker: Nice rig, scope is still to high for prone shooting, I suspect you shoot off a bench.

Leon's rig is really nice and suffers a low magnification scope but for out to 600 on bullseyes, its going to rock.

Herschel : I will repeat again, no issue iron sights on M1 or M14/M1A. But you know when matche shooters went to 800/1000, they had their front sights blades filed down. If not, you run that rear sight up high and your buttstock is not
into your shoulder...on a lead sled off bench, not a issue. ON the ground...gymnastics !

Point: a battle rifle is not a great 800/1000 yd long range precision rifle. If your intent is shooting that far, there are better platforms to consider. By all means go see for yourself what your battle rifles scoped // not scoped will do at such distances.

By the way your neck (height) and face metrics also enter variables when adding a cheek riser.

I got a VooDoo strap on cheek riser mounted on my M1A. It works but its sloppy, moves on me and is a royal PITA but short of buying an exotic adjustable cheek piece stock, I make it work. Its impossible to use at 1000 yds though..again almost nothing of stock touching my shoulder due to elevation needed to shoot this distance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,216 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Sharptonn: That is going to work like a champ. You can get a great cheek weld on that stock yet still have eye directly behind the scope. Like Leon, your scope will serve you well to 600 yds but may be out of elevation going to 800 but thats a Leupold so you might just get to 800... Nice job...seriously so. 💥
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
579 Posts
To me this is the whole joy of shooting these old time sniper rifles. Learning to walk, before running in a sense.

Modern precision rigs are so scientific now, that I have no passion for them beyond practical work when needed, same as a power tool. You truly can test ones ability with these old rifles and learning estimation without a range finder or flip down bi-pods in marksmanship.

Not that I judge anyone that chooses that, but its quite a challenge to basically handicap yourself and overcome them, rather then blasting a soda can at 50 yards with a Ruger precision rifle then going full peacock at the range.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
18,170 Posts
My current range mandates that unfortunately.
But I do shoot elsewhere both prone (slightly uphill too, making it worse), & standing supported.
You're right about the neck geometry though.

Shown here is my No 4 Mk 1 fitted with the BadAce NDT scope mount. The iron sights remain usable with the mount installed, although obviously the scope must be removed for this, as well as to remove the bolt.
I'm glad you wrote that. The BadAce NDT would have been my next choice, but now its out of the running because I just don't trust the mount & rail to be absolutely RTZ.
That's one reason I replaced the P-H 5A with the folding A.G. Parker 9W.

Point: a battle rifle is not a great 800/1000 yd long range precision rifle. If your intent is shooting that far, there are better platforms to consider. By all means go see for yourself what your battle rifles scoped // not scoped will do at such distances.
I've actually done 1,000yd shooting with a No4 & target iron sights, the targets are 5' square with a 10" "X-Ring" (in American parlance). But that was when I was younger, fitter & not as blind as a bat.
 

·
Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
9,497 Posts
...I'm glad you wrote that. The BadAce NDT would have been my next choice, but now its out of the running because I just don't trust the mount & rail to be absolutely RTZ...
I cannot store my milsurps with scopes mounted; the rack does not have enough room. So I attach the scopes at the range. I have no problem with RTZ; I always shoot a confirmation round at 100 yds to make sure. At most I only need a click or two to re zero.

The BadAce mounts are solid. Their No 4 mount is particularly well engineered. It is steel and clamps at three points. As I mentioned, I like being able to use the iron sights with the mount still attached.

In addition to the No 4 mount, I also shoot the BadAce Swedish Mauser NDT mounts. Again, absolutely no wandering zero.

Here is the BadAce NDT mount for the Finn M39. I am particularly
Tree Sky Plant Headgear Camera
pleased with this mount because it was designed based on my idea for the attachment. BadAce took my concept and made it work. BTW I don't need a cheek pad for
Wood Tree Trigger Gas Tints and shades
the M39 mount either, but that's just my high Hungarian cheek bones. YMMV. The mount tapers forward so a standard scope objective can be accommodated with low rings. The Scope is a custom-ordered Leupold 4.5-14x40 with the German #1 reticle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,216 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Sharptonn,

Depending on your shooting objectives, if you ran out of elevation, you could install as 20 MOA riser mount on your existing picatinny rail and gain elevation to go to 1000 yds. I had to do that with my flat top Rock River M16A4 National Match rifle in order to take it to 1000 yds. Works great. Many places sell them. Badger Ordinance does and its pricey. Optics Planet has a all steel Made in USA Weaver mount (If its not the same as Badger then its one molecule from being same) and I've been using this 20 MOA riser for over 6 yrs...the Weaver costs fifty bucks and I just am good with Made In USA stamped on the mount and filled in with white paint.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,230 Posts
My current range mandates that unfortunately.


Point: a battle rifle is not a great 800/1000 yd long range precision rifle. If your intent is shooting that far, there are better platforms to consider. By all means go see for yourself what your battle rifles scoped // not scoped will do at such distances.
I've actually done 1,000yd shooting with a No4 & target iron sights, the targets are 5' square with a 10" "X-Ring" (in American parlance). But that was when I was younger, fitter & not as blind as a bat.
There’s always the long coyote range if y’all’s come to visit. 😎👍😉
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,297 Posts
Yeah, but why? Performance? Noise?
Oh, barrel was threaded already by IO - this was their "import special" from Ukraine, they came in with AK style side rail, lol, and threaded barrel in 14-1LH. So I was like, let's put suppressor on it and see how it will do. It actually suppresses very well and shoots solid sub moa with this setup!
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top