I have an S&W Victory Model in 38 Special with all the usual markings. It has an added stamp on the left side of the frame, "BAVARIA MUNICIPAL POLICE". I'm guessing this is from the lend lease. Would such stamping likely bring a premium? I'm not looking to sell this. I love the thing too much, just curious. It looks to have been refinished a long time ago after the stamp was done as it has finish in the lettering. The finish is actually better than it looks in the pic, but is worn.
rustier. I think technically the Lend Lease Program was for the Allies during WWII, which would not include Germany. This was some program after WWII. I have seen photos of M1 carbines marked "Bavarian Prison Guard", " Bavarian Rural Police", and "Bavarian Border Police". John
I was thinking that Lend Lease applied in areas that the US was working to help in rebuilding efforts as well. I think I read M1 carbines went to Italy on Lend Lease, but Italy was considered an Axis nation if my history is correct. I have a National Postal Meter that spent time in Italy after the war ended, and I thought that was on Lend Lease. Although it wouldn't shock me if somehow after the war, items ended up being used by municipalities or official capacities maybe under some other "program". I'm interested in understanding this more and the potential history of this victory model. Perhaps these were sold to Italy or to the "bavarian" authorities after the war outside of the Lend Lease program?
The guns that were produced and provided under Lend-Lease were in .38 S&W - not .38 Special. These are likely guns that were exported after the war - maybe commercially - to West Germany.
You say "all the usual markings+ - does that include some version of the US Property mark? What's ther serial number range?
yes. It has the GHD and the US Property stampings as well. I don't recall the serial on it. Have to check it when I get home. Seems like the serial put it in the 1942 range, if I recall correctly.
Italy sort of became an Allie after it surrendered (?). If anything these weapons, M1 carbines and your pistol might have been under the Marshall Plan, to help European Nations get back on their feet after the end of WWII, and keep them from going Communist. The US had many thousands of pistols and carbines and rifles just sitting around after our military was reached from what 16 million to a couple of million is just a few years after WWII. John
Okay - I just wondered if it came from the guns that went to some of the defense/contractor agencies for their guard forces. It could have been part of a Lend-Lease or Excess Defense Article (EDA) transfer. You're correct that we sent guns to other countries (I also have an M1 Carbine that spent time in Italy in the 50's) but it may have been done under a different program.
Thanks for the info from both of you. Just trying to figure out this stamp. I've not heard of many stamped as such and am trying to understand that and if it does anything for it, other than make it more interesting... to me anyway. I'm the kind of gun guy that finds more stampings interesting. As long as they are legit and telling a true story.
My favorite part about getting a new gun is pouring over it, finding all the marks, and trying to decipher them and piece together as much of the gun's history as I can!
I have an S&W Victory Model in 38 Special with all the usual markings. It has an added stamp on the left side of the frame, "BAVARIA MUNICIPAL POLICE".
Nobody asked so I will. Is the gun actually marked 38 special on the barrel or is it 38 s&w? It could be a 38 s&w gun that was bored out for 38spl after it got back to the US.
The Victory Models that went to the German Police were in 38 Special. The conversions from 38 S&W to 38 Special were not successfull for at least two problems bore diameter 361 vs 357 and case base diameter 3865 vs 379.
These aren’t “lend lease” as they were allotted to many German and Austrian municipalities post war, and they eventually paid for them. Occupation forces quickly determined that German/Austrian entities needed to be armed, especially the zones that butt up to the Soviet areas. Many of the CMP carbines were from Bavaria if I remember correctly. The markings don’t add a premium in my opinion as they are foreign markings (not like US Navy, etc). They should be in good mechanical condition.
It’s interesting that the examples I found via Google search were 38s&w while the OPs example is a 38spl apparently . I would think the logistics of having basically the same handgun in two easily confused calibers would be an issue especially since these don’t seem to be clearly marked other than the barrel roll mark. ( think M1917s in HG use with bright red paint stripes)
Also I didn’t think the 4 inch 38spl guns were marked with US Property, since they were for us wartime contracts . Was this just inconsistent?
At the end of WWII and to give Italy a much needed boost the War Department transferred, lock, stock, and barrel the Winchester M1 Garand tooling and parts pieces to Postwar Italy. From that came, “hey Luigi, I got a better idea; let’s have Beretta make the M1 in .308 and use a 20 round box magazine! Ergo, the birth of the BM-59!
Note that the article linked above by Navy87guy indicates that a nearly equal number of S&W revolvers in .38 S&W and .38 Special were provided to Bavarian police entities post war. Certainly a logistics concern for them and another wrinkle for us current collectors to navigate.
I have a .38 S&W caliber Victory with 5in barrel marked Bavaria Rural Police. Factory letter shows it was shipped to Springfield Armory in Sept. 1944. I also have one of the original German issue leather holsters for it.
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