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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So here is one I accidentally found and planning to keep. Mismatched stock, german bolt (all matching to itself). Looks like made during occupation judging by the roll mark. What puzzling me is the stock markings that look like "ПАМ 13" and it looks like it's in Cyrillic. Can't find anything on these markings, so decided to ask community.



















 

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No clue as to the 13 marking. Stock is not original to the action. With the German bolt if no import marks could be a bringback; that would explain the unground crest.

If a bringback, could be used by Romanians, then captured by Soviets and marked 13, then captured by Germans, then captured by Americans.

Unusual to mark out original stock number with zeros.

All King Carol rifles were made in 1940 with a possible slight overlap into the last part of 1939.

TR4680 would be one of the last King Carol crests; my TR13263 is King Michael.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you for elaborating. Rifle has no import marks but it gives us nothing as the rifle in Canada and import marks were never required here. I also haven't heard anything about Soviets adding anything right after the capture, nor "ПАМ 13" brings anything in search.
 

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Hi Horilka,
Old and well-used Romanian Vz24's, some with these extra stock numbers (2232), were imported in vast quantities in the 1990's by Century International Arms, a Canadian-owned company based (IIRC) in Montreal. While many had scrubbed receivers, a decent number had Romanian royal crests like yours. I have never see a Vz24 with this Cyrillic marking and to my knowledge, none have ever been posted on this forum. Although there are a number of books on 20th century military rifle markings, I do not believe that this mark does appears in any of them, but I will check to be sure.

Good luck in your hunt.
Regards,
John
 

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Thank you for elaborating. Rifle has no import marks but it gives us nothing as the rifle in Canada and import marks were never required here. I also haven't heard anything about Soviets adding anything right after the capture, nor "ПАМ 13" brings anything in search.
Probably not a bringback if in Canada. I would guess an import from some post WWII user country other than Romania.

I just realized I know nothing about Canadians bringing back guns from WWII. Did they do that? Was it allowed?
 

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Weren't the "R" serialized Romanian contract rifles, the second letter "R"...If I remember right. The crest intact might indicate a capture/trophy as they were pretty well scrubbed after WWII.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thank you for additional comments Gentlemen. The amount of bring-backs in Canada in my opinion is proportional to the number of Canadians participated in conflicts. Also don't forget that not that long ago it was quite easy to cross the border in either direction with rifle or even handgun. But this one is probably imported by CIA, as John Wall pointed. There are plenty of Romanian VZ24s in Canada, but all I saw before this one were scrubbed post-war refurbs.
 

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It could be serbian cyrilica PAM 13 or Bulgarian rework facility.
Likely imported from some post WWII user country other than Romania, since it still has the crest.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Another collector from Canada advised he has VZ24 in exactly the same configuration - non-refurbished, intact crest, K98k bolt (but he has no ПАМ 13 marking). I guess they might had been used with those bolts.
 

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good evening:i'll make a comment about these Romanian crests since i happen to own one.i am the second owner out of century arms of Montreal.it is a complete rework by the first owner,including a barrel replacement.first owner was a knowledgable military collector and knew that the xamples with a remaining crest were scarce, and he decided to rebuild the piece.the military surplus in Canada has never received any required markings due to gov't desires.believe this is still the same.very few WW2 bringback items are in Canada,as the practise was discouraged by the military and/or gov't.one Canadian vet told me about his return from Europe to Canada.he said when the ship docked at Halifax harbour there was alot of Lugers and other pistols thrown overboard because the soldiers had been told they'd be in #*?! if they took them ashore.Lugers are not rare in Canada,but they are not common either.
 

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Ah! I found it.
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinMarks01.htm


"ПАМ - 2 in an oval
believed to represent a training school
M91/30 stock (same rifle as to the right)
(courtesy of "JMG")"

"УЧ
training mark
M91/30 stock (same rifle as to the left)
(courtesy of "JMG")"

The "
УЧ" is like found in Russian words "учеба" or learning, and "учебник" or textbook, so I'd guess that was the meaning. So the ПАМ mark here might be related to some kind of school. Thus your VZ24 might also be the same as this Mosin example, only with a different school.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Ah! I found it.
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinMarks01.htm


"ПАМ - 2 in an oval
believed to represent a training school
M91/30 stock (same rifle as to the right)
(courtesy of "JMG")"

"УЧ
training mark
M91/30 stock (same rifle as to the left)
(courtesy of "JMG")"

The "
УЧ" is like found in Russian words "учеба" or learning, and "учебник" or textbook, so I'd guess that was the meaning. So the ПАМ mark here might be related to some kind of school. Thus your VZ24 might also be the same as this Mosin example, only with a different school.
I agree that "Уч" in many Slavic languages could stand for "learning" or "training". However I see very small similarity between "ПАМ 13" and "ПАМ-2" in oval. Also we don't know if "УЧ" is related to "ПАМ-2", the fact they are on the same rifle tells us nothing until we see other similar stamped rifles. I also found another "ПАМ" stamp that also might be relevant or might be not. So it's all theories as for now.
(link to original discussion - http://www.russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20058)

 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
I found (at least something about possibly related marking). Straight from Ruslan Chumak (author of the recent book about SVT-40).

Markings like this should read:
Р (ремонт, repair)
ПАМ-6 (Подвижная артиллерийская мастерская №6, mobile artillery repair facility #6)
1944 (year of repair)

Here's another picture on Nagant revolver.

 

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ПАМ-6 (Подвижная артиллерийская мастерская №6, mobile artillery repair facility #6)
I'd say that you found out what the strange marking on your rifle is.
 

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On June 28 I bought an unscrubbed King Carol crest VZ24 rifle from a gun store in NH. UPS "lost" it on on July 10 when it was supposed to be “out for delivery” (by a substitute driver) but was never delivered. On July 20 UPS said “claim issued”, indicating they were going to refund something to the shipper.

The gun store gave me a full refund later.

Watch out for the s/n CR24148; this rifle is stolen.

I will just have to make do with my partially scrubbed crest rifle.
 

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